South Eastern High Speed - A Rushed Made Route?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by londonmidland, Jan 22, 2021.

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  1. Lunar_Twisted

    Lunar_Twisted Well-Known Member

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    I doubt I will be getting this DLC. Might be a pass for me.
     
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  2. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I tried watching it on steam but left because of the poor quality and constant buffering even though I have good internet. They should never have had a reveal stream on steam for their "festival of rail" nonsense if it was not gonna run smoothly in the first place. They've should've just put it on youtube to begin with so hopefully for future first time reveals for tsw2, it doesn't get livestreamed on steam.
     
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  3. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    After reading all of these comments on this thread so far here is my opinion:

    Whilst I didn't watch the stream because of quality issues with the stream itself (which will hopefully lead to dtg not doing first time reveal streams for tsw2 content on steam anymore since others have complained about quality issues) the criticisms I saw seem valid even if it's a dev build. A lot of recent dev builds dtg have showcased recently do end up making it into the customer production like clipping issues that were in the dev build of the Bakerloo Line, passengers that get on top of each other when getting off the train on the Bakerloo Line, incorrect ballast/scenery on the LGV Route, incorrect audio on the LIRR M3 but claiming that the audio is "realistic" when it's not so I wouldn't be suprised if alot of the issues in the dev build of this route. It appares DTG have cut so many corners on this route. Using the class 377 model instead of just making a new train from scratch even if they are similar in many ways to me makes no sense because in reality, the Class 375 and 377 are two completely different trains so they should've made a brand new train model entirely but if they couldn't due to the pandemic then that's understandable although they do have reference for the 375 in ts2021 so I don't think the pandemic can be 100% used as an excuse. Having the 375 sound the same as the 377 hopefully will not come when this route comes out either although the sound department doesn't seem to do a good job to get sounds close to accurate in alot of the trains they make. Now in terms of the scenery, things such as fencing should not be missing when they are directly next to the track. The ts2021 version of the route captures the scenery, foliage and trackside assets quite accurate to what it would be in real life. From pictures I've seen in the route and the reference that they have for this route in ts2021, there really should be no reason as to why they get assets, foliage, ballast and scenery wrong or not modeled at all if they have reference. As for the timetable itself, if they are using the real life southeastern covid timetable for this route, then that's fine for me because it would be realistic to what southeastern are doing. Yes it will probably make the route feel dead in certain areas but it's realistic to what it would be in reality and I'm all for realism. Could they have done a non covid timetable so we can get more services, yes but as to why they are not doing that is anyone's guess. People did have high expectations for this route and they had a right to have those expectations. TSW2 is supposed to be a "new game" that will bring improvements not to the core only, but to future route dlc so if people's expectations aren't met in terms of quality, then they can voice their frustrations. How many more times are we just gonna expect and make excuses for dovetail as to why every new route dlc is gonna be the same average content quality wise like past dlc's especially if they have tons of reference for an upcoming route like this one. This is a "new game" which means there must be improvements to the quality of this game all around which includes route dlcs. Some people may not care if a route is made in a average standard but some have higher standards and expectations for better quality for future content if they are practically giving their money to dtg sorta like an investor to make new content for this game.

    I do intend on buying this route at launch because I have the route in ts2021 and is my favorite route in the game and I hope the complaints that I've seen here on inaccuracies such as fencing and sound and on other threads will be sorted before launch although recent history has shown that most of the time, that is simply not the case.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
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  4. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    I'ma just say this at the beginning, it's best not to comment on something you haven't seen (like the stream), because if you get 1 thing wrong, people will come for your head with pitchforks.

    I don't think the same Model was used. But the same sounds were used. From what I seen during the stream, the cab looks somewhat different between the two units.

    That's my issue, when the faults in the traction motor sound of the 377 have been pointed out by the community and the community have asked for the 377's sound to be fixed, why would you just reuse the same sounds you were asked to change with the 375.

    From what I've seen, the scenery on the TS2021 version looks much better than the TSW 2 rendition.

    I'll still probably get the route to make some tutorials on it, and check out some other things with the route, but I am not happy with the way it looks. And I already see negative reviews on the horizon...
     
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  5. Jamy

    Jamy Well-Known Member

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    but yet here you are reading it.
    I could say some people are just easily pleased and can be sold anything, but i won't, free speach and all that
     
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  6. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    For those commenting on the lack of services, a quick search on RTT for a CHATHAM weekday service shows 199 SouthEastern services running through, and given the line between Strood Junction and Rainham is basically processional the service level without 465/700 services is about accurate
    Not going to excuse the low level Ebbsfleet absence as I think that would have been easy enough to include but they did say they're going to include Ashford services as AI so that's something (and lets remember a St Pancras to Ashford service, terminating at Ebbsfleet would be about 18 minutes with one stop at Stratford)

    As for the hype, DTG don't feed into that, in fact their input into this forum when it comes to "what may be happening" is minimal, so if people want to put high expectations on things that's a THEM issue, DTG have been fairly consistent in their approach so going in with "anything's a bonus" rather than "It'll be wonderful" seems to be a better emotional standpoint
     
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  7. hightower

    hightower Guest

    It matters not what the route is, or how well (or not in this case, maybe) the trains are modelled (and I include sound as a huge aspect of that), until the underlying problems within the game are addressed then these threads will always exist.

    It speaks volumes that some people are wetting their pants because there are working level crossings. Seriously?! Are peoples expectations really so low now that something so basic gets the juices flowing?! On the flip side DTG still cannot make a tunnel uniformly dark (what the hell is it with that?) and that merits barely a mention.

    I am only one person but until I see those issues addressed (if you’re asking ‘which issues?’ they are discussed extensively elsewhere in these forums) I’m done with this game, as it is not making any sort of real progress. The new additions are tiny little things fiddling around the edges but the big stuff, the stuff to which if improvements were made it would make everyone sit up and take note, is just left to rot.

    ps Have we not collectively learnt by now that when DTG say their stream demo is a ‘Dev Build’ a matter of days before release that what you’re seeing is, almost always, the release candidate. If you’re expecting wholesale changes between what you saw last night and what you will get on day 1 you’re likely to be sorely disappointed.
     
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  8. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Everyone? Are you sure... I couldn't give two hoots about light levels in the tunnels being more concerned with train operations. Similar with sound, for me
    But everyone's mileage DOES vary, so if those things mean you will delete the game and log off of the forum... Have a good life?
     
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  9. hightower

    hightower Guest

    How conceited are you that you see yourself as some sort of purist only concerned with ‘train operations’ huh?

    Sorry to tell you that despite what you may think, that doesn’t somehow make you better than those of us who do see visuals and sound as fundamental aspects to realistic simulation. Given the physics are also very sketchy, what exactly is it you’re here for then?
     
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  10. caspargray

    caspargray Active Member

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    DTG - you want my money? Well you’ve got a much better chance of getting it if we could have the full the full non-COVID timetable please. (Including 2tph High speed all day please)
     
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  11. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    Preview of a work in progress together with preorder of a not yet released product is usually not a good combination. This thread is the expected result of that.

    Taking into account the work in progress status I liked the shared content. Nice to see another TVM signalling application case.

    Cheers
     
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  12. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Where does this view that the 80's were some kind of dull and dark period and that everything should look like a reconstruction of Parry's famous hymn? I remember the 80's as a largely colourful time, bright summers (except 1985) and bright cold winters. Look at a photo a supermarket carpark in the 80's and compare it with an equivalent photo now and you will see which one is full of bright colours (as well as BL brown)! The modern world hasn't become some kind of bright ethereal utopia. Visit Langley Green station where I get off for work and you will see an example. Also modern line sides have far more trees than you saw in the 70's and 80's which I would say makes for a far more dull environment! I suppose privatisation has given us a variety of more colourful liveries but from a simulation point of view but that is about it.
     
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  13. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    You could also say that some are never going to be pleased and are determined not to be! It is a simulator it is never going to be 100% accurate. However there are some things like the tunnel lighting which could be immersion breaking although it won't stop me purchasing and getting a lot out of the route. Personally things like the colour of ballast don't bother me as I have never really noticed the colour of ballast.

    They have said they are still working on the class 395 sounds so I don't see why people should be making classy statements and calling them, well Matt in particular a liar as I am sure the same people won't then come back and retract that statement and apologise when or if they are proved to be wrong. There is a difference in being balanced, which the OP was and then the rants that some of the following posts were!
     
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  14. hightower

    hightower Guest

    Absolutely. I’d be surprised if everyone is expecting it to be a 100% accurate depiction of the real world. If you are, I can promise you that even multi-million pound commercial simulators would prove a vast disappoint to you.

    However, the issue I have (and speaking only for myself) is that aspects of the route that existed in TS1 - the fencing, changing ballast colour etc etc, have not made it into the ‘next-Gen’ simulator. The same can be said of almost all the routes that have a TS1 counterpart. Why?

    Additionally, I don’t think that it’s too much to ask that tunnels are dark. Is it?
     
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  15. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    This is the discussion forum for a game, a game made by a company with a track record for getting things almost right, but I only ever speak for myself, not "everyone"
    And I never said I was a purist. I am the furthest from that. Hence not agreeing with your previous statement.
     
  16. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    This is mystifying for several reasons...
     
  17. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely, I was still typing my post but pressed reply by accident. I do agree about the tunnels, that was the only thing which jumped out on me, it has never occurred to me that ballast was every a different colour, I suppose it is obvious as it depends which part of the country it was quarried, I guess, although ballast colour still wouldn't worry me even thought now I will be looking for it! I couldn't hear the sounds very well as I didn't have my speakers up very loud, sounds are important to me but certainly the 377 in ECW seems to sound like the ones I have heard which is probably enough for me. If it was a class 120 DMU or a Pannier tank I would be more critical in my analysis of them. The fencing is unfortunate a bit immersion breaking but I could live with it.
     
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  18. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    I mean, how many times have we been shown a stream that is plastered with “it’s a dev build” and then when we get the ‘finished’ product, almost nothing has changed.

    This “dev build” was described as ‘finished’ by Matt, barring some polishing, and the 395 sounds, and yet the amount of issues left seems to be substantial.

    I don’t see why I should apologise to a developer I’m paying money for a product to, just because they actually took feedback on board and finished their product.

    Frankly this thread is less about bashing and more a showcase of people fed up of the same old carrot on a stick treatment.

    Level crossings are cool, but route accuracy and train sounds are absolutely mandatory for a simulator.
     
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  19. hightower

    hightower Guest

    I believe that the High Speed section of the route has completely different coloured ballast to the local lines. This is reflected in TS1 (or at least it is with the AP Track EP), as is the fencing, but apparently not in TSW. This video shows it...

     
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  20. hightower

    hightower Guest

    Go on then...
     
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  21. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I don't know, you tell me, I have neither noticed or bothered compiling statistical analysis on the subject!

    It is a showcase of some people "fed up" and some quite happy and maybe a couple bordering on rapturous excitement, but the "fed up's" apparently have the more forceful voice!
     
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  22. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I suppose, for me personally, that would come on the list of, "it would be nice to have that level of accuracy (especially if they got it right before) and it is disappointing but it still isn't a game breaker for me", but I appreciate others have different priorities.

    One thing I will be judging, is how busy the route is as I imagine it should be fairly busy having had a glance at my 2013 timetable for the route.

    My overall feeling was of contentment and even if that gets dented a little I am sure it will still be positive. I will never get overly excited over modern routes anyway, although it will be nice to drive something different and explore different scenery but it is routes like TVL/NTP and Riviera in the 50's etc which I would get really enthusiastic about and where I would be more irritated with inaccuracies.
     
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  23. markhazeldine

    markhazeldine Well-Known Member

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    I think what some people might be losing sight of here is that DTG is a business that has to make money to survive. Train sim games don't sell as well as Flight sim games, so they are going to be more stretched on resources. I do admit that it is frustrating when new stuff gets released before old stuff gets fixed, but having previously worked in a software company, I know that this is a common issue. When you're running a business, you have to balance putting our shiny new features that get people to buy stuff and keep the lights on and staff paid, while also fixing existing stuff to make existing customers happy. If they stopped developing new stuff just to fix a million little issues, they'd go bust very quickly. It doesn't excuse ignoring your customer base and never fixing anything, but they do have to maintain a balance. The other thing to remember is that 2/3rds of their customers are on console, and I could be wrong, but I would be that the vast majority of those people are not on this forum and probably don't care about things like ballast colour and are more interested in eye candy stuff like working crossings and lights that turn on in lineside sheds. They did say some people enjoy walking up and down the tracks, which sounds weird to me! It seems to me that because this is a 2/3rds console game, they are definitely a bit more focused on the more casual user than the hardcore simmers who want everything to be perfect down the ballast colour and individual fence. In an ideal world, I would like everything to be 100% accurate, but you have to be a little bit realistic and remember that they have stretched resources and many different user types to please. Also....£20 guys. £20. They could probably make it perfect for £50, but only 1/10th of the people would buy it and it would take a year to release a DLC. That's just bad business.
     
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  24. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    • Tons of reference material shows the fencelines, how they're placed, what they look like etc
    • It's hard to miss them as most of the time you can't see the adjacent lines (C2C or the link from Kings Cross to MML)
    • They built the same route in TSx, which in some areas is closer to the mark
    • The line in question runs within a couple of miles of their office (As in they're based in Chatham dockyard so Chatham BR is 2 miles away by car, less if you walk)
    • If we know it's wrong, so do they
    So it seems to be it boils down to the QA process being "can we move what we've made from point A to point B and have some verisimilitude" rather than making an exact copy
    And I know that annoys some people
     
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  25. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    The part you’re missing is where we’re being sold new titles, DLC’s and such with promises that things are being improved, it’s less about a perfect route and more about my £25 seems to be getting worth less and less with each release.

    The more features we seem to get, the more we seem to lose from the core experience.

    I guess I’m just annoyed that more time seems to have been put into level crossings than the sounds of the featured trains, and before we get into “different teams” maybe someone from DTG could weigh in on what the train audio teams have been doing, because we’re 2 weeks from release with nowhere near finished 395 sounds, and copied 377 sounds for the 375.
     
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  26. hightower

    hightower Guest

    Ah, my bad. I thought you were saying my post was mystifying, not the missing items. On this at least we’re in full agreement.

    This is what I just don’t get about the way DTG work. Surely the colour of the ballast is not difficult to change and they know it’s wrong, but yet they don’t do it. So they cop a load of flak in the meantime, and it becomes something else that needs rectifying in the long run requiring more man-hours. Why not just do it right the first time?

    ps When I use the word ‘everyone’ it is a generalisation, as in the ‘vast majority’. I don’t literally mean everyone, and I don’t infer the same when anyone else uses the word either.
     
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  27. helderbrincolas

    helderbrincolas Well-Known Member

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    This thread as really gone massive and we all saw on that stream things that were cleary wrong and innacurate. So DTG, we all know you're seing this and ignoring the community. Just simply fix the things that have been pointed out here, there are major things. Enough is enought DTG we are paying 30€!!!!! Don't forget that.
     
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  28. Cloadmcally

    Cloadmcally Active Member

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    Well aside from being quite rude to the previous poster, you missed his point entirely: everyone's priority are different, that's why they do a yearly survey to understand what people care about, and while I do agree with you that lighting in tunnels and in the night in general is quite poorly handled, it's far from the biggest issue I would want fixed first. However, all of the concearns in here are extremely valid, I will refrain from commenting on what I saw yesterday since the stream quality was abyzmal. I have seen quite a few great routes recently with great additions to the gameplay, and yes to you level crossing might no be a big deal but I'd say they go a long way towards immersion, which is what I'm all about. That said, SEHS doesn't seem to be up to standard, especially due to the state the class 377 is in.
     
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  29. praxidike.meng

    praxidike.meng Well-Known Member

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    I just gotta say that I don't fully understand DTG showing developer builds where stuff is either missing or doesn't work as intended. I am talking mostly about the missing and lackluster sound of the Javelin in this case, but this also applies to any route now. How are you going to convince someone to buy your product if critical elements like sound (ok yes, that's just my opinion of a 'critical element of simulation'-bare with me) are missing or just copied over from existing stock? Going only on promises that these will work on release day are sadly not enough, since there are already cases where bugs from dev builds got into public releases...and then it takes ages for them to be repaired, and some never do get repaired in the first place.
     
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  30. SprattyHeath

    SprattyHeath Well-Known Member

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    I get that the route is set in a dreary and dull location, but surely the lighting shouldn't be that dark even in day time?
     
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  31. Cloadmcally

    Cloadmcally Active Member

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    I think that it's still in their interest to show the product before launch, here me out:

    1) we have seen in many cases that release builds differ slightly from dev builds, so were they to have held out longer on the streams and have done only one closer to release, I'm afraid the results woult not have been much different
    2) were they not to do preview streams the community would immediately get suspicious, and if all the people in this thread who are commenting that they will not buy the route, had bought it and left extremely negative reviews that would also hurt DTG's sales, even if they managed to move let's say 10 more initially.
     
  32. SprattyHeath

    SprattyHeath Well-Known Member

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    I think you misinterpreted what I said, what I meant to say was that the lighting simply looked far too dark and too NTP like, I get that building lighting (especially with UE4) is no easy task. But have a look at Stratford Intl for me in both the teaser trailer and the stream and tell me why is it so dark under the station shelters, the station isn't set right underneath a multistorey car park?
     
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  33. praxidike.meng

    praxidike.meng Well-Known Member

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    I agree with the idea of showing a work in progress to the community, if their suggestions are then considered in further development. But looking in the past with DTG, that doesn't really happen. Things that don't work get pointed out (as this thread has extensively done), even by the devs themselves, but then don't get addressed in the come up to release version. So why not just take time and finish the product first?
     
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  34. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    The issue is that they just don’t take the feedback on board, the 375 alone is a screaming example of that.

    These streams are NOT there to show us work in progress, because that build was described as “basically finished”
     
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  35. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Ah okay, I apologise as maybe I did misinterpret what you were trying to say.

    However I have seen that view espoused often, we must have these grimy dark looking 80's routes, when it wasn't like that. Skies were still blue, grass was still green, the sun still shone.

    I suppose at least we can adjust things to mitigate some of the dark textures.
     
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  36. markhazeldine

    markhazeldine Well-Known Member

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    I do agree with you that sounds are super important for game immersion and historically, DTG's sounds have been average at best, and sometimes very poor. I agree with you that I would much rather they focus on the things that are going to make big differences to the experience than small stuff. I think that level crossings is a relatively minor thing for me, however one thing you should bear in mind is that now they have spent the time on this route to develop that tech, they can now apply this to ALL the routes, so I think that is time well spent. Same with the PIS boards. That's actually quite a big one for me, as when they are blank, it makes the environment seem dead. Mind you, if they have a separate sound/audio team, I would love to know what they're working on because the sounds on the stream did seem a little, err, crap. It's quite jarring playing with the new AP 4-CEP pack and then watching this. The difference is huge. The only reason I'll let them off the hook for the sounds is if they say they've been focused on fixing the sounds of the Preserved Collection in TSW2 because those are REALLY bad and make whole routes unplayable.
     
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  37. Ben_Broomfield

    Ben_Broomfield Well-Known Member

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    I sadly didn’t see much of the stream but overall it was okay;

    I was mainly happy to see the functioning level crossings and the way they’re incorporated into the signalling system, so you don’t close your doors on a red to enable to signal to go off (which was a major immersion breaker for me in previous routes). Nice little bit of immersion that I’m happy to see.

    As well as that, the updated signal lens textures was really nice to see also, would be nice if they where incorporated into GWE/ECW by default. Also the CIS’s looked great too!

    To me the route looked a bit lifeless which was a shame, maybe due to the lack of AI or additional services? I didn’t particularly pay attention to the lack of lineside fencing but if it ain’t there then that’s a shame.

    The stock looks great. Sounds seemed a bit quiet on the 395, with the only bug bare being the horrid destination display on the 375; maybe because it’s using the same model from the 377 which ain’t the biggest deal. Although it’s worrying to see that the 395 sounds are ‘unfinished’ with 2 weeks left to release...

    Overall looked good; need a few more proper dedicated streams to see the route a bit more better.
     
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  38. skyMutt

    skyMutt Well-Known Member

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    Watching the stream yesterday, I certainly couldn't help but have very mixed feelings about what I was seeing. To keep things short, sweet, and simple, I think the trains themselves look and feel good. Watching them through a livestream wouldn't do it justice, but I don't think any red flags were raised with regards to the trains.
    My biggest issue was with the scenery itself.
    Fortunately, I don't have to just explain it. I can show it.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Here's a disclaimer. I am not from the UK and have never been to Southeastern England. But I am not at all convinced into believing thats how it looks like. Not only is the ballast much too dark, but there is plenty of areas with odd grass placement, where you can see weird gaps between areas.
    It was as though someone grabbed the brush tool and haphazardly went over the area only once, looked at it, and said "Yep! Looks good enough to me!"
    Or how about the third picture, with the Class 375? Look close at the ballast, its almost as though there's railroad ties sticking from the ground at a 45° angle.
    Making things worse, there's plenty of structures with very basic shapes. You can see this in the last picture with the Javelin driving around St. Pancras, and that little tunnel/overpass it goes under. It can literally be described as a hollow cube with light gray texturing and barely any shadows.
    And then there's of course the missing fencing along HS1. There is literally just a bland strip of grass separating the two lines, and that's it. German ICE lines have barriers between high speed and S-Bahn lines. Why is it missing here? It doesn't feel like we're driving on a special bit of rail at all.

    [​IMG]
    Also, whats going on here?? No, that isn't rust or flaking paint. Thats snow along the front of a Class 375. I'll admit, I absolutely love the idea behind this, but the attempt was shoddy at best. How come some panels have a decent splash of snow while the headlight cluster is completely spotless??? Actually, the whole side and top of the train is devoid of any snow! When I first had seen this picture, I was confused at what exactly I was looking at. That, along with the spotless platform feels very unnatural.

    What I wanted to illustrate here is just how bizarre this situation is. The fact that they chose to advertise the route in this condition is quite worrying and leads me to believe what we see here is largely what we are going to get on launch.
    It blows my mind that Southeastern HighSpeed has been on the roadmap for at least 6 months, and could have possibly been in planning for much longer. Correct me if im wrong, but TSW routes rarely last this long in development. And yet, this is what we get?

    The scenery feels very unnatural and definitely unfinished in the state its being shown right now. Southeastern High Speed doesn't even look remotely similar to any other TSW2 route!
    I commend DTG for their continued efforts with the PIS systems and the new level crossings, but the lackluster scenery makes this an incredibly hard purchase to stomach.
    I was looking forward to adding this route to my collection, and now I'm finding myself holding back yet again. There just isn't much in the way that convinces me to go out and grab it. You never get a first impression twice.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
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  39. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    From first looks and through a buffering stream, the route looks fine to me. I haven’t got a clue what colour the ballast is in real life or where fences should be (does it really matter?). I would have liked to see the route go to Ashford for a bit more high speed running but it has always been made clear by DTG what the route is so no real gripes on this point.

    I am disappointed that you can only go as far as the ticket barrier when on foot at St Pancras. I feel they have missed a great opportunity to fully model an iconic station with its different levels and shopping precinct (not to mention the pianos!). After the great job Rivet Games did with modelling Ryde Pier and allowing you to walk along and round it, this is disappointing indeed. However, I do understand that this is not important to some people and driving the train is the most important thing. I suppose you can’t please all the people all the time.
     
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  40. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    While I agree that PIS and route assets such as crossings are important to immersion, my point is that we shouldn’t be sacrificing those for other things, why should this route be a martyr just so the next route can be a test bed for something else, but have level crossings?

    TSW 2 was made because we apparently needed this engine upgrade to do things like this, but I’m not seeing anything but cuts being made in the development of routes.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
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  41. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    That is how the development works though.

    Each route has a new core improvement or two debuted and these are then included in future routes without the required dev time and also rolled back through old routes.

    That time seems to be set aside in each development for new core features so each route has an amount of time for building and designing the route itself along with some time spent on new core features. There isn't a trade-off involved, its not the case that that time spent on new PIS systems should have been spent building a fence for that particular route, its not the same thing. It isn't a sacrifice of one for the other.

    The LGV had lots of new things with the new route autogen tool, new safety systems (reused on SEHS in part) water on parts of platforms etc but these things can now be used on future routes so its an investment rather than an expense.
     
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  42. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Well I've sharpened my pitchfork and joined the dancing around the bonfire.
    Watched the stream.
    Do I care about the font of the Pis? not really.
    The colour of the ballast?
    Sounds?
    Fences?

    From all the passion expended we could be talking about biblical exegesis.
    Bought it.
     
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  43. Jamy

    Jamy Well-Known Member

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    We all talk about the authenticity of ballest and fencing but the real killer for me is empty yards. without which there is absolutley no atmosphere. the route will like every route before it just seem like a sterile waste land.
     
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  44. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    If things are added, and then there is not time to add other item's, then that is by definition, a trade-off.

    As I previously said though, track side fencing is one issue, cloned train sounds, and a complete lack of sounds are another.
     
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  45. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Dovetail Special Projects Staff Member

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    Adding new features is the responsibility of the core and gameplay teams. It'll then take artists some time to create whatever assets are needed in the route itself. Overall this should not, and does not interfere with the building of a route - you should expect the same level of detail as you get in other routes. Naturally there will be exceptions where a route rises above or doesn't quite hit "normal", but in the main you shouldn't anticipate a massive difference to what has come before.

    Our standards are, overall, improving. The HMA and LGV routes are the highest rated we've every released, but that doesn't give us an excuse to rest on our laurels, and neither are we. There have been occasions where we've missed the mark, or where one aspect of a route may be excellent but sorely lacking elsewhere. From the initial feedback on SHS it's clear that there are more marks against than there are in favour, and that feedback is not falling on deaf ears. It's being collated, summarised and prioritised to take to the development team after the weekend.

    The ballast appearing off-colour is not, in isolation, a deal breaker.
    The absence of scenic elements like fences would be disappointing, but not the end of the world.
    That lighting and sound are not the strongest suits we have are a source of regular discontent.
    A lack of traffic, or life in the world is an ongoing immersion breaker, especially when that lack is pronounced.

    Five major areas of concern, 1 or 2 of which would not be ideal, but tolerable. The compound nature however leaves players feeling that the quality falls short. Falling short of a quality mark we've established is definitely not something we aspire to.

    Your concerns will be reported, and given the level of importance in that reporting that reflects the strength of opinion. Please keep it coming, although it may be worth holding off for the next preview to check in more detail.

    Rather than clutter the forum with multiple threads on the topic it would be appreciated if it could be contained in this one for ease of summary. Thanks.
     
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  46. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

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    I thought the clouds still looked rubbish too, really wish they'd get these sorted once and for all
     
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  47. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for listening and collecting everyone’s feedback DTG Protagonist. Hopefully the final version of the route will change my opinions of it.
     
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  48. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I hope so too with only 2 weeks left. Recent history with this company though has shown that not much changes between a dev build and customer production. Also if they have so much reference from ts2021 which seems to replicate the environment quite accurately, then how can you get so much wrong with a route like this because the ts version of the route is my favorite British route and one of the best in ts in my opinion. It just doesn't make sense. Something as simple as fencing is on the ts version of the route but not the tsw2 version and mind you that fencing runs along the tracks and is right next to it
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
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  49. SprattyHeath

    SprattyHeath Well-Known Member

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    The dynamic sky texture is notably poor, but it's not really a priority to fix at the moment
     
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  50. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    The issue with the fencing is that it’s such a simple detail, when you bring up the lack of it, it’s just seen as small and a non-issue.

    If it’s such a simple detail I don’t get why it’s missed.
     
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