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South Eastern High Speed - A Rushed Made Route?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by londonmidland, Jan 22, 2021.

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  1. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Just my take but regarding the missing fences and ballast colours, at face value it seems like a minor and insignificant issue, but you’ve got to factor in what these fences and ballast means and what they are used for.

    I will explain below;

    Here, we can see the TSW version and in real life version of the route. Both screenshots are in the same location.

    Almost immediately you notice the missing fences. But why is that so important?

    Firstly, it separates the High Speed 1 lines from the conventional National Rail C2C and freight lines, as seen to the left and right of HS1. This is very obvious in the real life picture, however in the TSW picture, it doesn’t feel like you’re driving on HS1, because there’s no separation of the lines. You could almost ask yourself which line is supposed to be the High Speed one, as they all look the same.

    Secondly, the ballast colour is exactly the same as what you’d expect to find on a conventional National Rail line, not a High Speed line. The lighter looking ballast isn’t limited to HS1, as a lot of High Speed lines use the lighter looking ballast variant.

    Next of all, the elevation of HS1 is slightly higher than of the adjacent lines. However TSW does not represent this.

    Finally, I did not see any sound barriers. This is, as you guessed, used for reducing sound pollution as trains speed past.

    85C1FB1A-273F-40EE-8AF5-5A0B9A9C9365.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
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  2. hightower

    hightower Guest

    Exactly. These things are such small easy wins in the grand scheme of things that they are consequently all the more obvious when omitted (particularly if they are a feature of a similar, older product, made by the same company, to which there will inevitably be comparisons drawn)

    Somebody must have made a conscious decision not to include these 2 specific things (that we’re using as an example - there are many more). I would respectfully suggest that whoever makes these calls goes back to the drawing board and has a look at their decision making process, because these c o c k - ups and omissions keep happening.

    Also, thanks once again to DTG Protagonist for acknowledging that there are issues. The willingness to listen to feedback is the one chink of light at the end of the incorrectly lit tunnel for me.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 23, 2021
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  3. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    I'm not familiar with the route, but the lack of fencing and concrete/gravel (whatever that gray stuff is in between the fences) does make take away quite a lot of urban feeling. Looks too green and grassy to me.
     
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  4. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    Well thank you for acknowledging the community and our issues with the way the route looks currently. It’s good to know that y’all are listening to what we are saying and not just ignoring us.
     
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  5. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    I feel like Sam is telling the truth. I really do hope that things are improved from now until the release of the DLC.
     
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  6. helderbrincolas

    helderbrincolas Well-Known Member

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    I just hope the throttle of the 395 gets fixed, because is unacceptable reusing the 377 throttle sound on 395. THAT'S A PRIORATY, and the rest of the sounds too. Make the sound of the 395 louder and don't come with the excuse of the traction motors being in the middle cars......
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
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  7. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    If the sound isn’t that loud in the cab, because the traction motors aren’t in the driving cars, then making the sound in the cab louder wouldn’t be accurate.
     
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  8. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    No train cab is silent.

    The motors being further back has little effect on the noise in a cab, since most modern cabs are noise insulated anyway.

    What we heard on steam was a massively over-dramatic representation of a ‘quiet cab’
     
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  9. helderbrincolas

    helderbrincolas Well-Known Member

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    Exaclty!!
     
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  10. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    I didn’t say the cab should be silent. I said making the sound louder in the cab, if this isn’t the case, wouldn’t be accurate.

    I’ve never been in a 395 cab to know what it should sound like. I suspect most (if not all) members in this forum haven’t either.
     
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  11. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    Matt and Sam both did say that the sounds for the 395 weren't quite where they wanted before they streamed it yesterday. But did note that was being worked for release.
     
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  12. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    Yeah people I've seen complaining about the sound of the 395 haven't even attempted to acknowledge it.
     
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  13. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe it's because we know better then to take that as a "the 395 sounds will be improved" as opposed to them just acknowledging the fact, just because they say they're working on it, does not mean that the issue will be resolved.

    Personally i'm just taken aback that the sounds have been left until this point in development, let alone that they're using the 377 acceleration sounds on it.

    Maybe it's just me, but the level of confidence in DTG making significant changes seems a little extreme, considering they've proven time and time again that they either cannot or will not address various issues.

    Hopefully the next few streams on SEHS will show an improvement in sounds on the 375 & 395, they had the game volume cranked so high that the throttle lever was obnoxiously loud, and you still could barely hear anything in the 395.
     
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  14. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Having sat in the front carriage of a 395 many times... you can't normally hear the motors so I doubt you can in the cab either
     
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  15. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    I don’t expect to hear the motors, but I do expect to hear that distinctive electrical hum, and exterior track noise and ambiance, it absolutely should not be silent.

    You couldn’t hear anything
     
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  16. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Matt stated he had been on a cab ride with a class 395, therefore I suggest he is speaking with more experience than anyone else on here! Personally if the cab is pretty much silent in real life, that is what I would want it to be in the simulation.
     
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  17. nwp1

    nwp1 Well-Known Member

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    I was happy with what I saw on the stream and it was mentioned that there is a lot of work still to do before its release. The scenery looked good and I liked the locomotive.
     
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  18. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    What I've noticed with most of these comments is that those who know the route well are disappointed and those who don't think it looks good. That is the thing with TSW. If you don't know what the routes are like in real life they can seem impressive because you're not constantly reminded of their shortcomings. Having travelled on the route many times myself and after watching the stream last night the biggest killers are:

    1. Only the High Speed services that go to Faversham are driveable (Matt said apparently the others are AI only). As a result service mode only has 179 services. An explanation in the next stream as to why these services were not deemed high priority enough to allow the player to drive would be appreciated. HMA has 427 services with layers activated so it's not like the engine can't cope with lots of them. Hopefully there are least some depot runs on the 375.
    2. The lack of improvements on the 375. The 377 and 375 are NOT the same. As others have pointed out they have significant differences and the 377 sounds were average to begin with. I travel on electrostars every day (or did before the pandemic) so know what they should sound and look like. The fact the front PIS is STILL oversized and the side PIS screens don't scroll or show the station stops is ridiculous. DTG have shown that they can do scrolling PIS on the trains as the Talent 2 and ICE both had them on Koln-Aachen so why not take the opportunity to implement them into the 375?
    3. The lack of fencing along the high speed section and incorrect elevation as londonmidland has already pointed out are just ridiculous. It looked like any other mainline in the UK.
    There were other things too, like the lack of any other layers like railtours or even just static class 66's for Hoo junction. Almost all of us own it as it came with GWE which was included in the TSW base game. In the UK class 66's are so widespread that you could plonk them on almost any route (apart from the London Underground) and they wouldn't look out of place. They wouldn't even need to be driveable. Just fill the sidings up a bit. It's not like they are ever going to be used by future DLC.

    Another thing that nobody seems to have mentioned about the working level crossings is the fact that there were no cars were driving over them when the barriers were up. I don't see the point on having working level crossings if cars don't drive over and then stop when they lower. They might as well just be fixed in the down position.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
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  19. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    As much as I agree this is not a deal-breaker, it definitely should be an easy fix going a long way. The same criticism has been made for LGV, nothing happened about it and then a mod popped up simply making the ballast couple tones lighter which helped the route a whole lot. If one person can fix it, surely it can't be an insanely difficult thing to do.
    When do we get to a point where it might start to matter. There are comparison photos in this thread where it is very clear parts of the route are truly far from what they look like IRL. Not every house needs to look the same, not every pole has to be there, but the general feel should be there and this is quite a big hit in that direction.
    One thing may be able to help with this would be having a cross-platform section of the forums ("general discussion"). If people want to discuss a general feeling on the route, streams, trailers, nowadays at least one thread pops up on each platform section. Having these talks grouped up might be able to help a lot.

    Overall I think some things should definitely be done even if that means moving the release. Most people would be fine with that if it meant improvements. We know that because the same thing happened with the game release itself. Everybody was ok with it because it meant a much better product. SEHS would go many tiers up with just a couple small/medium tweaks:
    -brighter ballast
    -support for ECW/GWE Class 66
    -Class 375 to Northfleet (it's literally closer to Ebbsfleet than Hackerbrücke to München HBF)
    -Javelins to lower platforms in Ebbsfleet
    -fences

    Things like lights and sound are bigger things to do, these are just some examples of what should be rather doable.
     
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  20. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    Having spent several hundred hours in the cab of a 80X (which is similar enough to the 395), my comments would be:

    - Motor sound is non existent in the cab, so I agree that you can't really hear it.
    - The cab doors do not seal like the saloon doors, and therefore you can hear more track sounds than the you could in the saloon. It's especially noticeable at junctions etc, as you do both hear and feel them.
    - There's an AC vent in the ceiling that makes a fair bit of noise.

    The cab is far from silent, and unfortunately this is something that DTG struggle to grasp with their DLCs
     
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  21. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

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    True but it did sound like it was skating on ice and all you could hear were the notches and buttons, you should be hearing track rumble at least! I'll still await for full release before making any judgments on sounds though
     
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  22. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I would imagine that because the remaining services go via HS1 (Ebsfleet lower) and this would give a driving time of about 18 minutes they didn't think putting them in as drivable "services" would go down too well

    If you look at the service pattern on a weekday in Chatham and select only the SE services there's 199

    375s would do very few depot runs on the route given they don't run any services down the Gravesend route and mostly they stable further east than Faversham with only a very few at Gillingham or Hither Green (and none at Slade Green that I've ever seen)
     
  23. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    For me it looks OK and it is clearly stated it is not yet finished. We have seen a development version and they still will do a lot. If we all try to judge products that are not finished, they may stop showing us and I really like the open mind.
     
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  24. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    That's not much shorter time than most LGV services!
     
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  25. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    The release is in less then 2 weeks. They have to submit the build t o Sony and Microsoft for their QA. So effectively, they only have the next week to fix things. And its unrealistic that they will fix much.
     
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  26. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Whilst I want to remain optimistic, you have to bear in mind that there really isn’t a lot of time left at all to fix and improve things. Providing they don’t change the release date.

    They can’t just work till the very last day and submit it ready for release date. These things take several weeks to do.

    I think at the very best, they may post a patch post release to fix some of these issues raised, but again, that is probably the very best case scenario.

    What do I think will happen?
    They will add the missing 395 sounds, but I can’t see much, if anything, changing scenery wise ready for release.
     
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  27. Jamy

    Jamy Active Member

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    On GWE there are services that last 1 minute 30 seconds. Reading to Reading train depot
     
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  28. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    London midland is right with the title of this thread, the route does feel rushed; but the most ironic thing about this is the amount of time this route was development.

    I remember when I pointed out on here in November my surprise that LGV had leapfrogged SEHS on the roadmap I was told it that was a good thing as it meant they were spending more time on it to get it right. LGV was in 'In Development' on the roadmap for less than 2 months before it went to 'Upcoming'. This has been 'In Development' for at least 4 months before it went to 'Upcoming' and yet it feels more rushed than LGV.

    To leave the 395 sounds until the last week and a half before launch is just mind-blowing. I wonder whether DTG allocated resources to LGV by taking devs away from this one. We'll never know I guess but something doesn't feel right.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
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  29. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    And they’re worth it IMO, something as simple as taking a train out of service is quite satisfying.
     
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  30. Jamy

    Jamy Active Member

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    agreed
     
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  31. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Which further supports the argument of no matter how long or short a service is, it can still be enjoyable.

    In my opinion it should be up to the player to decided which service(s) they want to drive, not for the developers to automatically decide for us, and remove the ‘short and boring’ services.
     
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  32. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, the depot runs provide an otherwise rare occurrence of extra interactivity with trains, which is one of the advantages of TSW over TSXX, it seems counter intuitive not to add those services in, there's been plenty of requests for cold and dark starts and shut downs, and one of the reasons ECW was received so well was that you had services where you changed ends, took a train into sidings and did depot runs and shunts.

    These smaller services have as much gameplay value as full runs, simply because we get to play around with the train.
     
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  33. rat7_mobile

    rat7_mobile Active Member

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    The thing with the fence, islike many other train set, you have to put up the fence, as part of the side job
     
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  34. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Yes there should be track rumble/run sounds certainly. To be honest the volume didn't seem very loud or maybe I had mine down to low but I couldn't really make out any sounds from the 395, the 375 sounded louder.
     
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  35. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    This makes me think - where do the 395s get stored over the night? Are there such spots featured on the route?
     
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  36. RobSkip

    RobSkip Well-Known Member

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    One 395 stables at Faversham overnight in the standard timetable, I do not know if this is still the case with the current service cuts. The majority of units return to Ashford Down Sdgs where they're based, for servicing and cleaning etc.
     
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  37. rabid

    rabid Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for posting those comparison images. That is indeed a significant difference and I totally understand people's dissatisfaction, as it bears very little resemblance to reality.
     
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  38. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Those images are very damning, yet DTG, and an alarming amount of other people think fences have little effect on a route.

    You couldn’t blame someone for not knowing this was HS1.
     
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  39. Alexandreo3

    Alexandreo3 Active Member

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    I dont want to be pessimistic but i just went to PS and Xbox discussion and on Xbox I couldn`t find anything about SEHS and on the PS thread there were only positive comments about how good the route is.
    Factoring in DTG said that 2/3 if not more of the playerbase are on console I doubt that they will do much about the things disscused here.
     
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  40. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    This is quite a statement in itself. SEHS is one of the most anticipated routes. You'd expect more threads with "it looks amazing", yet these threads simply aren't there, and for good reason.
     
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  41. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately on console it’s a case of just being glad that a simulator exists.

    But anyone who has played this route on TSXX or travelled this route before can’t say that this lack of detail is ok.

    There’s also an alarming attitude amongst some where they aren’t bothered about X thing because they aren’t interested in the route, we as a community need to strive together to at least hold DTG to an acceptable standard of representation when it comes to their routes.

    No body here is asking for a moving picture of the route, but it is a 51 mile stretch, 20 miles of which are in tunnels, we really shouldn’t be asking too much just to get basic rail infrastructure along the tracks.
     
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  42. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Dont forget that they streamed on Steam.
     
  43. NekoNina

    NekoNina Well-Known Member

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    I'm not saying we should boycott this DLC, but maybe we should. I don't get the players saying "I'm not happy with it, but I'll still buy it" as it sends the wrong signal. DTG only really learns if their finances are at risk. They couldn't really care less if a bunch of - in their eyes - "experts" complain because some - in their eyes again - unimportant things are missing.
    I have never once heard Sam or anyone at DTG apologize for what we saw last night. That's quite telling. Not even a "Sorry we couldn't fulfill your expectations". It was always either (and I'm paraphrasing here) "Your fault for expecting good quality" or "Well then go play a different simulator". Quite appalling in my opinion.
    I doubt they'll delay the release of the route. At best we'll get a patch after release and another "[In Planning/Improvement] More services on Southeastern High Speed" on the roadmap that will just be neglected like the Bakerloo Line timetable.
     
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  44. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Can we clear up the cab sound issue. The cab sound was disabled in the dev build used in the stream because it isn’t right yet. This was explained very clearly in the stream. Everybody knows it isn’t silent in the cab and DTG have not designed it that way but it keeps getting brought up here about what’s realistic and how it was wrong in the stream. There will be sound in the cab when they fix the issue. Matt even went to great lengths to describe what that sound would be like because he knew we couldn’t hear it during the stream. Also, people are asking why they have left the sound until a couple of weeks before the release. They haven’t done that. There is a problem with the sound a couple of weeks before release. That’s a different thing altogether. Bash DTG with a stick if you like but make sure your stick is a reasonable stick that’s in possession of all the facts.

    I’ll be bashing them with a reasonable stick if it releases with terrible sound. That doesn’t include a traction motor that has a pitch that’s slightly wrong by the way, that’s taking bashing a bit far. I’m talking about broken badly mixed sound.
     
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  45. tbaac

    tbaac Active Member

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    Its possible that fences and sound barriers have too great an effect (on fps) and so that it was quite a major issue. Either show the route with some fences and half the frame rate, or show it without barriers.
     
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  46. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    That’s what I was thinking too. It is a high speed section that has an awful lot to draw. It is easier for some to believe that DTG have left them out because they are all blind or lazy or just don’t care.
     
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  47. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    When did they tell people to play another sim or it's people's fault for expecting too much? I appreciate you're paraphrasing but where did you get that feel from in the first place?

    Sam said on this very thread that he's collecting all the feedback on the route and giving it to the devs after the weekend.
     
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  48. NekoNina

    NekoNina Well-Known Member

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    Oh, forgot to mention that, Train Sim Community Discord server. He was there going his usual ways of saying "Your expectations are too high then"
     
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  49. Alexandreo3

    Alexandreo3 Active Member

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    To be fair most of the people criticising the missing fences did so in a civil manner without directly insulting DTG staff.
    So its not verry nice of you either to do that generalisation.
    And maybe they have a reason why the left out the fence or maybe the just forgot after all they are people too.
    But if they have a specific reason they can just tell us and if not they can atleast say that they simply forgot to put the fence their.
     
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  50. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    That's why I believe it would be cool to hear the reason behind some decisions... but IIRC (from playing it on TS20xx) HMA had sound barriers, they are there in TSW as well right? so I don't think that's the problem. We go at 225 km/h which is 5 km/h slower than HMA as well. We also have all sorts of fencing and detailing around the 250 km/h section of SKA. But maybe such a huge fence popping out of nowhere or being "chased" by the player looked worse than having no fence at all? Similar to how you see the bridges appearing in front of you on LGV?

    I still believe (while not laziness) this is about doing what the majority of the people care about, a fence, or the ballast colours are not an issue for a huge amount of people and simply is not worth the effort to do it. I still think the major reason is this, but of course this would also result in a performance increase.

    But at least it would seem like they are looking at the timetable, so that's awesome. Also the new signalling system is fantastic and road crossings are cool as well.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
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