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South Eastern High Speed - A Rushed Made Route?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by londonmidland, Jan 22, 2021.

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  1. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    It's good that I saved $30 then lol
     
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  2. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    I'm starting to get very uncomfortable with this way of thinking at DTG.

    They make a route knowing not everyone will buy it, some people prefer x, y, z route, which is fine and to be expected. People not buying it because of x, y, z issue on the route is not and should not be a reason to bat out the line "don't buy it, we don't force you". Ultimately they should want everyone to buy every route but that won't ever happen, but they should still try and tempt people with quality work.

    We seem to get a half baked route more often than not, the consistency is just not there. Staff at DTG must see what we're seeing and know the route isn't 100% complete when it's released. I really don't know what else I can say about this, I'm so disappointed that little things along the route are breaking the immersion but like they always say, if it's not game breaking they won't fix it right away if ever.. I hope they can address some if not all of the issues we've raised in this thread but I'm not holding my breath. I hope they read this thread and take action like with the WCML launch on TS2021.
     
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  3. markhazeldine

    markhazeldine Well-Known Member

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    So, having now watched the cab ride video and looked at the old TSXX route between St. Pancras and Ebbsfleet and re-watched the stream on YT, I have come to the conclusion that while they've made a route that feels quite nice to anyone who doesn't know the route, if you DO know the route, it does have some glaring errors, and the old TSXX route is in fact more accurate! So, DTG, please go back and look at your old route and see what you've missed in this new one. There are issues with the core game that have gone on for ages and there are issues with rolling stock (like PIS and sounds) which I won't go into here. I just want to focus on THIS route scenery, as that's the most pressing bit right now.

    The main areas that need addressing are:
    • Ballast colour (yes, I admit, it is wrong and was right in your old route!)
    • Fencing (you had it in your old route, it should be in this one)
    • Catenary (in the new route you've combined the catenary of the HS1 and local lines into the same gantries in some places but in the old route and real life they are completely separate and look different
    • Too many trees (unless things have changed in recent years, the high speed section is not as green as you've made it)
    • Buildings around St. Pancras need a bit more work. Here you're going very slowly and you notice everything. On the high speed sections you can get away with more, but here it needs to be really accurate.
    • Tunnel entrances: Some of these look rushed or over simplified. These are real markers on this route. They need to look accurate.
    I'm not bothered too much whether there's a delay in release or a later patch, but these things do need looking at. Thanks!
     
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  4. rabid

    rabid Well-Known Member

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    Unlike TS1, the lack of a publicly-available route editor for TSW means enthusiasts cannot improve or upgrade them, so once released these routes are forever "set in stone" if you will, apart from minor bug fixes. It is therefore of prime import that DTG endeavour to ensure the route is of sufficient quality (especially scenicly) to satisfy customers and stand the test of time. Yes, people are picky, but rail enthusiasts generally have an obsessive eye for detail. What I and many are afraid of is DTG’s inconsistency - great attention to some detail, yet a seemingly increasing ”that'll do” attitude when it comes to the fidelity of the scenery and infrastructure. I was going to preorder but instead shall hold off and see what DTG’s reaction will be to the feedback from this thread.
     
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  5. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, but that's thanks to the additional locos (204, Dash-8 and 363), normally you have 5-6 coming with the route itself.
     
  6. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    I think this whole thread is a “quiet” testimony to how far Dtg has come with the game.
    We now expect a very high standard across the board.

    I’ve frequently used the service.
    Watched the stream three times.
    Not too bothered about the infelicities.
    Look forward to playing it.
     
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  7. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Ooops forgot to say
    I don’t want the NY subway.
     
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  8. KyleL

    KyleL Well-Known Member

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    Although I live in NYC, neither do I :D
     
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  9. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    To some extent you are right. DTG has released some high quality DLC in the past, as it's the expectation that all DLC will meet that level (they are the same price after all).

    However this time it's more of a difference between high and very high. The ball has been dropped on a few major and very noticeable features (like an entire staff halt being missing). Coupled with an uninspired timetable, the route has gone from day 1 buy to sale purchase at best.
     
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  10. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    I think this dlc has gone from "day one" to I'll see what DTG do to address the issues between now and launch day. I'm not expecting them to correct everything before launch, but I'd appreciate some sort of response regarding our concerns.

    Please acknowledge our issues and concerns DTG Natster DTG Protagonist TrainSim-Matt
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
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  11. nielsmallant100

    nielsmallant100 Well-Known Member

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    Let's be fair, most if not all FANSTASTIC DLC are fantastic because they are saved by the presence of rolling stock from other DLC. HMA without dostos, 425's in Augsburg or any freightruns would turn quite boring quite quickly, but because of all the extra services it is one of the most alive routes we have to date, which is why it is one of my favourites.
     
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  12. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

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    DTG could have included this livery on the two Javelins obeying the rules... Wearing their face masks. It could be a temporary livery included in the route.

    A0837764-FAED-41BA-8BB3-9A1E4CB470FC.jpeg
     
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  13. Bryer

    Bryer Well-Known Member

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    This thread is toxic. The amount of people "disappointed" in an unreleased DLC is incredible.

    DTG have to bare in mind that they are building a DLC for PC, PS and Xbox, all with different hardware specs. So adding in fences might cripple the FPS so much that it makes it unplayable on console, so best to not give them to anyone (we know PC players like to think they are superior to everyone).

    Yet again we are seeing that some people can't separate a game from real life. Yes this is supposed to be a train simulator, but if it was a TRUE train simulator, most of you wouldn't play it.

    If you don't like the look of the route, don't buy it. Yes by all means voice your opinions, but remember this has been developed during a pandemic, where they've struggled to get out and about on a route, I'm pretty sure getting sound recordings for a game, are NOT deemed an essential journey!

     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
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  14. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    You can't brand a thread toxic just because it doesn't agree with your way of thinking. If a product is subpar then there's nothing wrong in stating so as long as it doesn't deteriorate to arguments or insulting developers (which it hasn't as far as I can tell).

    This route has been developed to a far higher standard in Train Simulator. They have the references from that to easily use yet for some reason didn't. To work out a fence was there, or that Hoo Junction Halt exists, they simply had to play their own game. So that's a poor excuse for this route. (I'd sympathise more if they were covering a new area, but they're not).
     
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  15. Bryer

    Bryer Well-Known Member

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    OK, I've called it toxic because there is a lot of hate in the thread for the development process, and basically you've got people trying their hardest to "cancel" the DLC before it's even in their hands and being played. We've seen cancel culture increase ten fold during the COVID era, because people think that they have a right to do such things, when actually they couldn't draw a Javelin to the level it was/has been modelled in this game (with the exception of the artist who did draw it for the promo image).

    They refer to products being made on alternative game engines, which has had over 15 years of refinements etc, so the coding is better for that engine, thus allowing possibly a better product to be delivered with reduced physics and features etc.

    Also comparing it to a route developed by a 3rd party (Rivet Games), and saying that the standard is the same, is again negative.

    I have also not given my opinion on the route, because I haven't played it in TSW 2 yet, no one apart from Matt and the internal team have, because it's still in development, so for you to say that my way of thinking doesn't go with what they are saying is really a shot in the dark isn't it?

    Also LucasLCC, if you're going to quote me, quote a paragraph or statement in full!
     
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  16. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    If something as simple as a bit of fencing cripples the game's FPS to the point of being unplayable, then there are very big and very worrying issues about this game we don't yet know about.

    I think it's very strange you're describing this thread as "toxic" because people are giving (rather valid) criticisms of a route 2 weeks from launch, a route of which we've seen a build described as "almost done" (a build that has missing scenery, missing stations, and big holes in the ground) - especially considering DTG Protagonist has encouraged discussion in this thread and encouraged us to provide feedback.

    As mentioned above, they already have a boat load of reference from the route they built for TS2013, which is one of the reasons they picked it, along with a lot of other (probably very popular) routes in TS1 so using the pandemic as an excuse is ropey at best. Yes, sounds are very difficult, and they are going to have to recycle/synthesise sounds (both Matt and Sam did say the sounds aren't finished), but the same doesn't go for routes because there's a magical thing called Google where you can get lots of pretty pictures of basically anywhere.

    And just to be clear - I'm not having a go at you.
     
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  17. seatsea

    seatsea Active Member

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    If the way they've built up their tooling around the unreal engine means that fences have such a high performance cost that they removed them, well I'm sorry but they've done something real bad somewhere. Or maybe they were darn good looking fences /s. And as the post above correctly states, they were included in TS, in an arguably much worse performing engine.

    In truth, they have included fences and walls on plenty of other routes. And it's not a question of PC players thinking we are superior. Fact of the matter is, a majority of PCs are simply more powerful then last gen consoles, and therefore it's not illogical that they make the most of it. The graphical settings on console are lower for this exact reason. But this is the trade you make for a cheaper gaming platform, and that's okay. Not everyone wants to, or can invest in a PC and spend the time maintaining them.

    But this isn't even a PC vs Console debate here. They have missed core parts of the route that make it distinctive, and as a community, no matter what platform, we should ask for better, as we know they can achieve it, ECW, HMA and SKA are good examples of this.

    We haven't yet played the route, but experience has shown that not a lot of improvements can be made in the short time between the preview stream for a route and its release, so I think it's fair to judge on what we've seen unless they give us a reason to believe otherwise, like how they indicated the sound not being quite finalized.
    Neither am I toward him, I think we're having a rather reasonable debate.

    I understand it's difficult to see criticism for something you've been hyped for, it's disappointing, I get it. But it doesn't mean any of us are being toxic. A lot of us are giving understanding to the developers and recognizing their work, I think we're more pointing at an organizational issue that forces them to rush stuff.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
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  18. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes it's also worth to remember what we are talking about: We came so far, that the fencing seems to be a game breaker for some people. Yes, it is not a nice thing, I get it. But actually if fencing is the biggest problem we have with this route, TSW2 and this DLC are actually pretty high level.
    Sure, giving feedback and voicing disappointment is important to make the next release better! We should always do that. But sometimes it's just worth to appreciate that train simulation games are nowadys so good, that fencing and the some trees seems to be the biggest issues.
    It's a very nice train and route. I'll get it on sale, since I'm not thaaat much into the british routes
     
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  19. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Of course the amount of people disappointed is actually quite small compared to the amount who were watching the stream and are not even the majority of TSW users on this forum. Whilst I don't like to see inaccuracies like a missing staff halt, from my point of view the route looked very good on the stream and I liked the PIS and the level crossings so the disappointments won't stop me purchasing it and it isn't even a period I have that much interest in.

    Some on here should remember they are expressing an opinion, not speaking for everyone, also they don't even know if they are in the majority.

    The OP was balanced and did contain a list of likes as well as dislikes since then it seems to have become the usual angry thread, although I wouldn't say it was toxic. Suddenly a few have got their pitchforks out of the shed and are congregating around DTG's offices. Some posters only seem to get involved in these sort of threads!
     
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  20. Bryer

    Bryer Well-Known Member

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    I'm not going to be name call, but my reply was aimed at certain members within the community that are overly negative on a whole host of the DLC's. Those people will know who they are, and most of the regular forum users will know who they are.

    You are all making an assessment on what Matt P did say was a developer build with unfinished sounds and unfinished aspects as a whole. I don't really think anyone can make a judgement on it fully until they've played it.

    Also dev builds of games could be weeks or months old, so unless Matt P was to state publicly when the build date of the build he was using to do the reveal was issued, it could be extremely old code, with lots of changes.
     
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  21. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Community Manager Staff Member

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    byeo In case you missed this response from Sam earlier on in the thread.

    We have acknowledged your concerns and we will continue to pay attention to the feedback shared in here. We are unfortunately unable to respond to each and every single post but we are reading and listening to what you are all saying.
     
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  22. seatsea

    seatsea Active Member

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    Arguably this would apply a little to me, but I only get involved in these threads because I care, I've spent more time playing TSW the past year than any other game, owning most of the dlc, and it hurts me to see that something so basic in route is missed, or rendered so wrong. I don't want to point fingers but I won't nitpick about how dirty a train is, or the placement of a warning sticker and such. But distinctive visual elements of a route they got right before and now didn't is a rather different situation to this.

    I think it's important to differentiate "serial complainers" and those who have specific, and reasonable expectations of quality, who know this isn't going to be a perfect simulation but agree some details matter. And I would argue most people in this thread fit in the later category.

    And even if we're a small part of the community, less than a majority, it doesn't that we can't be right. Ultimately if the route looks better, it's an improvement for everyone. The best (or worst however you might see it) we might achieve, is to get the route to be delayed for a few weeks as they review some aspects. In the end it'll have little impact on the community and we'll end up with a product with better value.

    This is what happened with the release of TSW2, and wouldn't you agree that getting preserved content brought up to par with scenario and livery editors included is a good thing?
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
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  23. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    Removed the Release Date until March to fixes and reworked all that annoying issues
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
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  24. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    Then why is Matt showing us (what is effectively promotional material) a build of the route that is weeks old, given they were probably working on it up until the day of the stream (and I have little doubt they're working on it as we're typing).

    It's like someone making a CGI-heavy film, but released a trailer before the CGI was done, and in places simply isn't there and you see actors talking to tennis balls instead of big robots or whatever.
     
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  25. Bryer

    Bryer Well-Known Member

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    So that people could see the route working/running, and that they had a committed slot on their Festival of Rail, if they had cancelled it, people would have been in even more of a state than they are that some minor cosmetic issues are missing. It shows they are working hard on the DLC still as they haven't gone gold with it yet. Which is a good thing in my opinion.
     
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  26. seatsea

    seatsea Active Member

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    If they are showing us something early in development, it's standard practice in the industry to clearly say so. And usually this is done many weeks, if not months ahead of time.

    I'm more than happy to see early content so the community can discuss what details matter the most and so that they can adapt their focus. But here, the route needs to be finished in only about a week, far to late to get any major changes done.
     
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  27. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think this thread in general (except for a few responses) got to that level of toxicity.

    Anyway I don't think this is an example of cancel culture, it's just people that were REALLY looking forward to this DLC, probabily having played hours and hours of it on TS and finding out that under certain aspect this is worse than the 2014 TS DLC...

    I really know how how these people feel, I felt the same way for LGV but because for that route there wasn't this huge uprising I ended up just accepting it for what it is and actually I enjoyed LGV and I still didn't get bored even after doing ~30 runs, and I think it will be the same for this route as well.

    I still think the majority of these replies were not hating against DTG as a whole, but I think the critiques made to the route building process are fair. After SKA and HMA (which are two fantastic routes) we got LGV and then this which really seem sub par in comparison.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
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  28. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Dovetail Special Projects Staff Member

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    As much as you're right to an extent, this isn't early in development, you've seen something that is close to being done. Your feedback is being directed to the design team for consideration and while there will be improvements to the sound you should anticipate few, if any, changes in other areas.

    [edit - clarifying what will and won't change]
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
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  29. NekoNina

    NekoNina Well-Known Member

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    WTF? Did you and Matt intentionally lie during the stream then? This really doesn't help your case. The cab running sounds of the 395 aren't even existing. You seriously can't tell me that's not going to change, right?
     
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  30. Alex_m30x#7297

    Alex_m30x#7297 Well-Known Member

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    Hi Sam, Just a quick question, Will there be some coupling/uncoupling scenarios/ timetable modes in this?
    Personally I think DTG have done a great job and some of these are just very small issue that the uneducated people like me don't even notice them!
    But I still cant get over the model-ing of the 395, pass be congrats on to the team!
    Cheerio!
    Alex
     
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  31. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Yes but there are ways and means and these threads always descend into this "I think this route is awful so do 15 others so we are in the majority".

    Someone mentioned the missing fencing could be because the sim isn't loading it up, which is likely to be the least likely explanation, but would indeed be a concern, that has now been repeated and is in danger of becoming "fact" where it is quite likely it just got missed, but we don't know what the reason is so therefore should reserve judgement until we know the reason, if indeed we ever do.

    Some are even calling for the routes release to be delayed, why? Not everyone is so unhappy with it. Sure, I would like to see the fencing included and the ballast the correct colour, now that I know about it but it isn't a game changer for me, nor several others it would seem and the route still looks, in my eyes and indeed by the looks of it several others to be an attractive and overall well made route. I just don't know why it has becomes such a controversy with almost forensic examination of what many users, I would suggest probably see as minor annoyances.
     
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  32. Bryer

    Bryer Well-Known Member

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    There is minimal cab running noise in a 395, as per Matt's detailed insight from his numerous cab rides before COVID. It's due to the drivers cab being about 2 carriages away from the traction motors.
     
  33. seatsea

    seatsea Active Member

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    I don't think really anyone claimed to be in the majority. But a few people agreeing on the same issue does give some legitimacy
    If this were the case, then I would hope that one of the staff would have said so here already. Why leave people speculating when they know it's a bug that'll be for sure fixed released. Their silence on the topic, is actually very loud in admitting that it's actually unlikely to be changed.
     
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  34. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't make a cab silent.
     
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  35. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Dovetail Special Projects Staff Member

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    Sorry, that was badly worded on my part. I'll rephrase:
    We acknowledged that sound is incomplete, so it will be worth waiting to hear how that's improved.
    As for other areas that have been covered in feedback so far, it's been reported to the development team but you should expect few, if any, changes.

    (I'll change my original message as those are two separate things, thanks for the heads up)
     
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  36. NekoNina

    NekoNina Well-Known Member

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    It's still super inaccurate, as there are no wind sounds, nothing. No train in the world is that quiet. And I've heard the 395 aren't exactly quiet in the cab anyway.
     
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  37. 4-COR

    4-COR Well-Known Member

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    I doubt a fence is going to cripple FPS...
     
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  38. NekoNina

    NekoNina Well-Known Member

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    Ah thanks for clearing it up. I was scared for a minute ^^'
     
  39. Bryer

    Bryer Well-Known Member

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    1 fence panel no. 100's of fence panels, maybe!
     
  40. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    And if you go back a few pages I've stated this is incorrect. You're right that motor sounds is minimal in the cab, however the cab is far from silent in reality as the doors whilst pressure sealed are nowhere near as sound insulating as the saloon.
     
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  41. 4-COR

    4-COR Well-Known Member

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    Can it be confirmed that at least the poorly looped AWS alarm in the electrostar will be fixed?
     
  42. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    I pre-ordered this and then got a refund. Didn’t even bother with watching the stream. I have gone back to TS2021. Yes the graphics are nowhere near as good as TSW2 but at least with Armstrong Powerhouse’s products you feel like you’re actually driving a train. The class 166 accelerates like a NASA space rocket, the HST accelerates like porridge, taking 10 mins to get to 125. The HST braking is way too aggressive, the BR Blue class 47 brakes stick on in the NTPE. The physics just aren’t good at all.
    With AP stuff their physics are actually well researched and I have numerous GPS data recordings on real life stock on identical routes and the timings are always bang on. TSW2 are always bang off.... never had a real life GPS data timing even close in real life to TSW2.

    We also have 150s, and 158s to choose from and amazing routes like the Riviera Line. God knows why this route wasn’t done ages ago!

    I may well come back to TSW2 in a few years when they’ve had chance to do some proper physics research on their stock. Who knows
     
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  43. Bryer

    Bryer Well-Known Member

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    Think you'll find the insulating in the driving cab is to a higher standard than the passenger saloon, as the driver is exposed to the noise and the drivers union wouldn't allow for the driver to be placed in a position where their hearing would become impaired.

    Anyway, the sound is incomplete and it's just been acknowledged a few posts up that they have made changes, so let's wait and see.
     
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  44. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    I think you've been in very few cabs, if none then!
     
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  45. Bryer

    Bryer Well-Known Member

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    Exactly the point I raised earlier.

    TS 2xxx has had 15+ years of development.
    TSW 2 using the Unreal Engine 4 has had maybe 3 or 4, and it's not so easy to change the core engine as it is in TS.
     
  46. Bryer

    Bryer Well-Known Member

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    You're entitled to your opinion. I spend most of my days in a Class 66, but what would I know about cab noise in one of those?!
     
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  47. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I initially replied to this thread with the same attitude, thinking we were going down the route of the same old complaints by the same people that complain about everything. I’d seen the same screenshots and watched the stream (albeit in pixellated form, because of Steam’s streaming) and had liked what I had seen, not thinking the issues were that important. But this thread has not been toxic in the way people are voicing their disappointment and genuine concerns and has been useful to me in seeing it a little differently. DTG will see it too. There are big problems here. I’ve watched most of the stream again on youtube but it’s this thread that made me see things more clearly, not the better video resolution.

    The stream started off with a proud shot of working level crossing gates, and DTG must have thought it was going to be very popular. It turns out that a few small ‘moving fences’ have been rightly overshadowed by the omission of some much bigger static fences. I’ve also offered up some potential reasons why the fences might have been missing but DTG haven’t said the reason, and that’s a problem. If it is old code or the fences were taken out due to performance issues then they would tell us surely.

    Sam has replied during the time I’ve been typing this and has basically confirmed that the fences will be missing in the release build. That’s clearly not good enough. Add me to the list of people unhappy about it.
     
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  48. RobSkip

    RobSkip Well-Known Member

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    The cab of any train is usually louder than the saloon, there's always less sound deadening, and the presence of wind noise increases the volume a lot. If train cabs weren't loud, the standard volume for systems like AWS and DSD/DVD wouldn't be so high. I'm by no means saying Matt is wrong, a 395 cab is quieter than say a 66, but in the tunnels and at 225km/h the balance of sounds changes greatly.
     
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  49. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    Ah, the 66 with a passenger saloon.

    If you've ever been in a 395 or 80X cab (both are similar) you'd know that the cab door really isn't that well insulated, and let's a fair bit of noise though.
     
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  50. Bryer

    Bryer Well-Known Member

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    OK, but why are you unhappy about it?! It's a cosmetic issue for a small section of the route. People need to give context to their disappointment. Ask Sam's said, it's not game breaking that they are missing. You're speeding past the damn section at over 150mph.....
     
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