Not long ago parliment stripped southeastern trains or Govia of the franchise (apparently) Now southeastern trains or southeast trains is cutting 100s of services. So who's cutting the service's, parliament or govia?
Southeastern was owned/operated by Govia prior to the OLR takeover but I don't believe it fell under GTR
Southeastern. They was or are still run by govia. Southeastern was ment to revert back to South East trains, some government run rail company or something, because there figures were 20m short one year. But I heard not long ago govia are still running it. I read today that politicians are up in arms because Southeastern are cutting 100s of services daily.
Govia hasn't operated Southeastern since October 2021. SE Trains is the OLR (Operator of Last Resort) assigned by DfT to run it since.
Hold on. Govia and Govia Thameslink Railway are different entities? Interesting. I wonder why they are so similar, given that GTR is owned by Go Ahead.
Having succesfully confused myself for the past 24 hours, I finally did some research. Govia is a transport company with this logo: They currently operate a subsidiary called Govia Thameslink Railway: GTR is an amalgomation of 4 companies: Thameslink, Southern, Great Northern, and Gatwick Express. Govia (the first one) used to operate a bunch of other subisidiary companies, including Southeastern, and London Midland. They do not do this any more, and those two companies had nothing to do with GTR. Now they stick only with GTR. Now, I like having multiple franchises because it means I can identify regions of the UK with what TOC they are served by, but this was/is a right mess!
Almost correct - Govia Thameslink Railway is just one franchise, which uses four brand names relating to the four 'areas' it serves. Gatwick Express and Southern were both part of the same franchise pre-GTR, although was previously independent and run by National Express. Southern is also not a new brand name, having been used since 2005 I believe (Govia had the franchise since 2003 but ran as South Central - this was actually before their franchise really started because they bought out Connex SC). Thameslink and Great Northern were the same franchise which was previously First Capital Connect, but before then these were two individual franchises, Thameslink (which was run by Govia but independent to Southern) and WAGN, owned by National Express. GTR actually only took over from two companies, Southern (Govia but not GTR) and First Capital Connect. GTR is just one franchise, TSGN (Thameslink, Southern And Great Northern) and therefore got into trouble for charging extra for different services on the Brighton Main Line despite Thameslink, Southern and GatEx being the same company and therefore it not being allowed for them to charge different prices based on brand. As a result the Gatwick Express costs no more than Southern or Thameslink - and as far as I am aware the Gatwick Express has replaced Southern's Victoria to Brighton route entirely, with Southern no longer operating a direct service between both stations.
Thank you Doomotron and Dangerous Dave. I was somewhat aware of the existence of Southern in the Victorian era (something called Southern Belle I think), but I was unaware that Thameslink and GN were once the same company. I also heard something about SN and GX being the same company but also not the same company so thanks for clarifying that. I have checked, and Southern still run services from London Victoria to Brighton alongside Gatwick Express (albeit slightly slower) and have the same stopping pattern as represented in London Commuter. Between London Victoria and Gatwick Airport, The Southern fare (on Oyster) is £9.00, and the Gatwick Express fare (on Oyster) is £19.80. I can understand if Thameslink and Southern should charge the same fare, and if Great Northern and Thameslink should also do so, but Gatwick Express doesn't seem to. Again, thanks for your help.
Do you mean the Brighton belle? It was a electric pullman. Last time I used the Gatwick express it was £40 one way! I think the whole point is that its a express service to Gatwick and for that price there's absolutely no chance of commuters packing it out. Same as the Heathrow express, nothing special, pricey but direct to Heathrow and again commuters ain't likely to use it. The elizabeth line goes to Heathrow now but its usually jam packed and takes longer to get there.
I probably meant the Brighton Belle, but I thought it was a steam train! I wonder why it was so famous. Also that is probably correct about the Airport Expresses. Same for the Stansted Express. The thing is that tourists are more likely to use the Express services because they know that it will be just one ticket. With local services, there may be ticket options and restrictions they are unaware of. Locals will know that the express services are rarely worth it, but it is nice to have that piece of mind that you have bought the correct ticket. Also, a fast service to London is actually quite nice. The lack of stops and therefore the lack of other commuters means the journey is a lot more comfortable. Also you get to London faster.
Pullman is for the creme of society. Yeah the direct link makes the difference. I noticed on gwx there's extra luggage racks for all the luggage people fly with also. I treated a ex girlfriend to the pullman experience some time ago. It was a little under £500 for the both of us for a journey that would cost £60 on national rail. Then I will add I've seen tickets on sale for £20,000 upwards for a week on pullman tours!
I think it's pointless gettign hung up on names, just look at Virgin. The overall Virgin company was started back in the day by Richard Branson as a record label, then got into air planes because he wanted to be able to fly for free... WHen they got into transport they put their "trusted name" to a railway brand but obviously it wasn't them actually doing the train movements etc, that was their "railway partners"... With Govia, that's a transport group who own loads of franchises and licenses to operate vehicles as well as "group companies" including GTR and at one time Southeastern So why not just call it all "Govia"? Mainly because if the government remove the franchise from GTR it's only GTR as a company which would end up folding. The main Group company Govia would continue The same is true of Arriva UK and DB. If the UK company went belly up tomorrow the core DB UK group could continue with very little disruption. The name "Southern" may well go back decades, but the people running the current "southern routes" have no association with them. Same as Great Western Railway of 2022 has naff all to do with Isambard Kingdom Brunel. The names are mainly identifiers because people don't want to keep changing them whenever the operators change Are these the same politicians who cut railway funding, told railway workers they can't strike and if they do there will be plans to bring in agencies to run the railways, who put in place minimum standards and minimum operation capacities even though the railway isn't fit to meet them, who won't pay for upgrades or electrification (even of new routes) but then moan when targets aren't met Oh, and a £20m pay hole is nothing on the governments billions wasted on COVID response on things which were unsuitable, illegal or just rubbish (and that's not even including track and trace) The main problem with politicians is they're generally only interested in what gets them elected in a few years, whereas infrastructure lasts decades Having looked at the updated December 2022 timetable there may well have been a trimming of services, certain services ending short of where they used to (Medway Valley line won't go to Tonbridge outside of the peak for example) but the service pattern is logical
Wow that does look luxurious! And expensive! Interesting it is actually a thing that still runs. I wonder where it goes - London to Brighton I presume? I don't mind if the brand names change, but I would like some kind of distinction between regions. The current names I find useful to create a map of the south of England. I know that Hastings is in the south East because of the Southern/Southeastern services there. I know that Hertford is a bit north of London because of the Great Northern services that go there. I know that York is towards the east coast because LNER goes on the ECML, and I know Preston is towards the west coast because of Avanti West Coast running services on the WCML. The main reason I have trouble with geography up north and in Scotland is because they are really only served by Northern or maybe TransPennine Express and ScotRail, so it is a bit more difficult, but doable. If we do lose the brands, I will be fine, as long as we have some semblance of regions, unlike what we had before where it was Intercity, Network SouthEast, and then everywhere else (Regional Railways). That would cause some geography issues for me. Also, I like the different colour schemes around the UK because of the different brands. The dark blue of ScotRail compared with the red and blue of South Western help me discern between the two regions, and, if I happen to be travelling Intercity, it helps provide a sense of progression. But that's just me. I haven't heard of anyone who also uses this, most other people use motorways for geography, but I haven't used them enough to do that.
I'm not sure about the Brighton belle. I think it's currently a restoration project. Hopefully we will see it again one day. It's definitely on the bucket list.
https://www.belmond.com/trains/europe/uk/belmond-british-pullman These guys run steam and Class 67 hauled specials from Victoria (P2) to places across the South and West of the country. They often run down the Kent Mainline or through Chatham. One was on Friday just gone I believe That kind of works, but Holyhead is in Wales rather than the West Coast of England and that's served by Avanti too, Norwich is further East than York, indeed the "East" has several operators (Southeastern, C2C, Anglia, LNER, Northern, Scotrail...) So I get the point, but really if you want to know where somewhere is on the british rail network the best map I've seen is on the national rail maps section https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/Blue route ASandMetro map v24.pdf This one shows the operators by region, but not every station https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/TOCs v56c May 2022.pdf
The Southern Railway existed from grouping to nationalisation (about 20-30 years I think) and ran all trains in the south, although reached far further than the modern Southern, reaching the west of England. When Govia introduced their new brand they chose the name Southern and used a similar but modernised logo. The livery was also designed to look like the Southern logo, but interestingly was used prior to the Southern brand, being introduced in the South Central days and even being featured on slam door stock: It is being restored (not to the original condition though) and I believe has already run on the main line on test.
I know southern railway or SR hasn't existed since nationalisation. Just saying the name goes back some years. Yea those politicians, I was trying to get to the bottom of who is actually in control of southeastern, I now know its the OLR which is dft which is run by the government. Just didn't understand why a company run by the government would cut back on services only for members of the same government to complain about it. Politics is new to me, for nearly my whole life I've not been interested in anything they say or do! But yeah I've always known that they are a bunch of lying cheating crooks lol. So where are medway valley line services gonna start terminating, not Maidstone again hopefully.
The OLR is semi-nationalised, but in a weird way. The service itself is run by multiple private companies (Arup Group, Ernst & Young and SNC-Lavalin Rail & Transit) who work on behalf of the government, who 'own' OLR, or at least that's how I think it works. I'm not sure what the exact context of that statement is but it may return to terminating at Paddock Wood.
Yes I have seen those maps - a lot of fun! Ohhhh! So thats why there was a Class 67 hauling some classy carriages into the Southeastern platforms when I went to Victoria! Makes sense now thank you.
I see, so it's not really nationalised. It's hard to make sense of any of these companies. I looked at govia which is go ahead which is another then another then more companies etc.... Years ago trains used to run from Strood and terminate at Maidstone. Then you had to get another train that terminated at paddock Wood and then another train to get to Tonbridge. Am hoping they don't go to them lengths again.
They use the name because it helps people who know nothing about trains to identify with the brand. But in this instance it actually helps to differentiate between the Southern Railway pre-grouping, Southern Railway post grouping, the southern region of BR, Connex and now GTR if only to show that these things have not been continuously managed by the same people The management of the company has been taken over. The people on the ground are the same people. So in essence it's the bean pushers at the top who are sitting in a slightly different office making slightly different decisions, but all bound by the same framework as the last guys I think with regards to "why would one government department slate another government department" boils down to each politician needing to sound like the expert in their field, when really all of them are a drain on UK resources and only line the pockets of them and their friends. If you can make yourself sound big and important by slating someone else who's job is actually much harder than yours, but hey they've broken their budget... Might make you sound important enough to sit at the big table in Downing Street and that's where the real power (slush money) really is. You don't get a post career speaking tour when you've only been sub-minister for the Home Office... Half of the services terminate at Maidstone West and have done for ages, this is as a competitor to several bus services between Medway and Maidstone as well as serving the small villages along the Medway The rest will terminate at Paddock Wood and will reduce the crossing of trains from North to South just after Paddock Wood so the only people who lose here are those wanting to go from the MVL to Tonbridge and vice versa outside of the morning commute and the school run
It's a shame guy fawkes attempt failed really. There's not much competition if a bus can do in what, 30-45 mins compared to half the day by train. The first time I went to Tonbridge by train, it took so long I thought Tonbridge was in another county.
I think the point on that is that there aren't that many people (or reasons) to go from Medway to Tonbridge (or Tonbridge generally) and of course almost all rail in Kent is London-centric... Really the only two lines which don't focus on London trains are the Medway Valley and the Marshlink Line out of Ashford to Hastings.
There are still going to be 4 trains per hour on weekdays which stop at Paddock Wood then Tonbridge, it's only the MVL trains which will terminate at PDW so people will have to change trains, but it WILL mean the flat junction is less busy, allowing higher speeds to other trains in the area, especially when there are issues
Don’t confuse it for being anything associated with the Southern Railway of the early 20th Century. Same with LNER, GWR and all the other TOC’s with similar historical names. They also have slightly different names. The modern GWR is registered as ‘First Great Western Railway’ as opposed to just ‘Great Western Railway’. The modern LNER is just ‘London North Eastern Railway’ as opposed to ‘London and North Eastern Railway’. Subtle differences sure but nonetheless completely different companies.
The use of pre-nationalisation names has been controversial, mostly down to the overuse of 'Railways' which people associate with the 'golden age' of rail travel. Although GNER gets a pass because GNER gets a pass for literally anything.
