Speeding And The Penalties Of…

I assume the idea of trying to keep to timetable is to run as close to the speed limits as possible.. generally speaking.. because not all trains are equal in the go fast department. Some timetables seem impossible to keep to..

Speeding obviously isn’t good and in the game A slight over speed turns the reading yellow, and red if you’re either caught out or just not paying attention and this costs points.

Can any real life driver explain what happens if they have a minor (yellow) over speed and a major ‘red’ over speed and how many ‘offences’ do you get before it gets serious?

All in the pursuit of realism.

 

Not a driver but I did work on the railway for over 40 years. Minor infringements would probably be dealt with on a “tea and biscuits” chat with the manager but serious or repeated breaches would go through the disciplinary procedure with the potential for suspension or even dismissal.

In any event, the TSW penalties are pathetically low. You never lose any AP or have the potential for your driver level to go down as a result. At worst you get 0 AP for that section. You certainly don’t get taken off driving and I have never yet encountered a derailment due to excessive speed, even when I’ve gone 25 or 30 over the limit such as on West Somerset.

 

Of course, I have no attitude towards the railways, but it seems to me that these speed limits are being introduced for a reason. Therefore, exceeding them can pose a serious danger to everyone around. I think that in real life, a yellow level would result in a fine from one's salary.

 

As far as I’m aware, in Britain, no action is taken for being 1 or 2mph over the speed limit. For 3mph plus, it would probably just be a warning for an isolated incident.

Once you start getting to 5mph, the consequences will begin to get gradually more severe. However, it is not just the speed that is looked at, but the various factors surrounding the incident (was it intentional, was it prolonged, what were the overall safety implications etc).

However for the 1 and 2mph infringements, TSW is overly harsh. As far as I’m aware, the loss of points on TSW starts once you’re half a mile an hour over the speed limit (eg 20.5mph for a 20mph limit).

Obviously at half a mile an hour over, the driver’s speedometer is actually registering the correct speed! For this reason, I tend to run a couple of miles an hour under the speed limit, which considering how tight some of the timetables are is incredibly frustrating!

 

I guarantee this won't happen. Train drivers aren't footballers!

 

1-2 mph is well within the margin of error from most speedometers. Probably lots of trains running around on the network that will over-read as their wheelsets wear down.

I get the idea that doing 101 mph in a 100 zone for the briefest of moments will not be overly consequential in the real world. Unless it is in Germany, where all the safety systems will virtually jump out of the dashboard, berating you and screaming all sorts of warnings all the way as they bring your journey to an unscheduled halt.

 

In our country, it's entirely possible. Just as for violating the law, you could end up working as an assistant driver instead of a train driver, or even worse, as a track worker. Nevertheless, punishment exists in one form or another everywhere.

 

I think all modern UK traction post 1995 has speed limiters on them.
However I did record a run or 2 on a HST a couple years ago that was definitely over the speed limit on the ECML, don't think people posted the timings and speeds for obvious reasons.
It was the last few months of long distance HST operations and it was happening very frequently from what I heard.

 

Isn't there a middle ground in TSW for up to 5 mph difference? I know it's yellow vs red. Honestly I don't care about "points" or trophies so it's irrelevant. I'll try to stick to a speed for immersiveness, but it's no big deal to me if it goes over by a few. There's enough routes where the speed zones and signals are bugged anyway that I figure it'll happen eventually.

I just have a very lenient supervisor (myself) =-)

 

Sure, it's entirely possible for there to be consequences. But generally speaking in the UK there's no concept of employers fining people (withdrawing bonuses maybe).

 

In other parts of the world, such as the UK, there are worker protection laws where an employer cannot withold pay. They can fire you, demote you, or take other action, but if you worked the time, you must get paid in full for it. The concept of your employer taking money out of your paycheck for time worked because of something they didn't like isn't allowed.

 

That's exactly what I meant. Our law also prohibits deductions from wages, but nothing is said about bonuses. Sometimes they make up a significant portion of your monthly salary. Or lose that same 13th "salary", which is issued as a bonus for the New Year.

I answered above. The laws are roughly similar, but we have a larger bonus component in salary, which the employer can deprive you of for misconduct. And this is permitted by law (within certain limits, of course, I don’t remember all the details exactly).

 

I don’t know what it’s like overseas, but on British railways I’d class that as a strike. The three strikes and you’re out rule.
Not acknowledging a yellow signal with the AWS is one thing, but passing a signal at danger (SPAD). That’s an instant dismissal on the British railways.

 

In the early years of HST operation on the Great Western there used to be an unofficial “140 club” of Drivers who’d taken an HST to 140mph. Soon after, a 128mph speed limiter was fitted to HSTs.

These days all UK trains have OTDR - the railway equivalent of a plane’s black box - so the speed of the train is constantly recorded. Some traction has systems whereby an alert is triggered in the event of significant exceeding of the line speed, and an investigation will result. With others it comes down to luck whether a manager carries out a random OTDR download and spots the violation. However, you’re going to be in more trouble if you fail to report the incident and then get caught than if you hold your hands up straight away and report yourself.

As others have said, a couple of mph over isn’t a problem providing its corrected promptly. Higher than that and there’d be some sort of action. What the action is depends on circumstances and the operator. For most operators, providing they’re happy that the incident was a genuine error, the focus would be on competence development (training) to prevent a repeat, rather than discipline.

 

Not at all. There are plenty of Drivers in the UK who have had more than one SPAD and are still driving. Operators take into account lots of different factors in deciding the right course of action after an operational incident. It’s about ensuring you can put in place mitigations (generally training based) which give you the confidence that the issue can be addressed in a way which will prevent a repeat - i.e. it’s about running a safe railway.

The other thing I would say is, it’s not all about the Driver. As an operator you need to understand all of the factors which contributed to the incident, and that could include signal sighting, train faults and characteristics, method of signalling, communication, training and guidance given to Drivers and other employees, and many more. If you just blame the Driver every time there’s an incident, you won’t reduce incidents. The Driver is just one of many factors.

 

I didn't know there was speed limiters on the HSTs was it universal?
I recorded mid to high 130s on my phone GPS, which could be a bit optimistic.
I assume you meant OTMR not OTDR?
It did seem like the drivers were having a bit of a final hurrah in those last few months.

 

As I understand it, when BR put speed limiters on HSTs they fitted them to all of them. Whether any of the many operators of HSTs changed that in later years I don't know, but I'd be surprised if any removed the limiter completely.

Phone GPS speeds can be affected by a number of factors, so I can't say whether the train was genuinely going at that speed. Speed limiters generally only cut power - most don't apply the brakes - so it's conceivable on a steep downward gradient speed could continue to rise after power cuts out. However, at 125mph+ wind resistance is high, so it would need to be a very steep gradient to gain speed, and I'm struggling to think of any locations where a 125mph line speed is combined with a steep enough gradient (over a sustained distance) to get to the sort of speeds you mention. The other possibility is that you were on a train with an under-reading speedometer (which can be caused by a number of factors) causing the Driver to believe speed was lower than it was. Whether that will also affect the speed limiter depends on the way the speed limiter operates, but in some cases it does.

OTMR (On Train Monitoring Recorder) and OTDR (On Train Data Recorder) are different terms for the same thing. Most operators now seem to call it OTDR but it doesn't really matter.

 

I see the remarks on the forum about medals and what not, but I feel like that misses much of the point. People act like scores are just "some game thing you're expected to have" when really a ton of games don't actually have scoring. There's a lot of games where the focus is more on exploration than on high score. Which IMO is what TSW should focus more on being if they have to try and "gamify", with the amount of broken medals it has and the removal of lots of achievements it's clear DTG themselves really don't give a toss about that aspect at this point either.

I'd be fine with that if the game actually reacted in a meaningful way that made you actually need to stick to the speed limit. Instead you can just blast steam engines well above their yard switches at main speeds without the game really giving a toss, I always think of the Hyce video whenever this sort of conversation topic pops up.



And before someone gets on me for "wanting to derail trains" or whatever, I'd note there's still ways of penalizing the player even without derailments. I remember Trainz having a advanced GP38-2 made for Trainz, and interestingly it actually has a feature where your conductor will intervene and apply the brakes.


(Go to around 19:45 to see it demoed)

I look at that, and really I wonder why TSW hasn't implemented a similar feature, make it where extreme speeding will have your AI conductor slam the emergency on you. I'd go maybe a step further and perhaps implement a "three strikes" rule, where if do three severe infractions the game will then kick you from the driver seat and hand it back over to the AI. Seems like a good way to encourage you to actually play by the game's rules, without being overly harsh.

 

Why would that be necessary? It's up to you how to drive. There's already a penalty that only matters to people who want to follow the rules. Seems like more work to "force" people to "play by the rules" by being "less realistic."
Just let people do what they're gonna do. If they want to drive an HST at 140 mph... let em.
It doesn't hurt you one bit since it's a single player game.

 

Thanks, it's interesting to learn how other places (where btw?) work. I've heard of this 13th salary thing before, it's a competely alien concept here. I have no idea if train drivers in the UK get bonuses or not but I doubt it, as it's not the kind of job where it would make sense.

 

Some people can't just pretend they don't know how the sausage is made, people like me care more about how the game's systems actually function. Finding out for example that a game has a scripted fight you will win or lose by default bothers me and takes me out of the experience. Conversely I love it when a game actually has dynamic fights and systems that act independently of what the player does. Silly as it may sound to you something like a AI conductor that can intervene would actually add a lot to the experience, even if you ideally will never activate it.

 

That would destroy the fun of gameplay for me, so to keep both kinds of fans happy it'd have to be a toggleable feature which would then create yet another layer of complexity to the code. Still, you can suggest it if it's something you need.

 

Incorrect. There is no instant dismissal on uk railways for having a spad.
TOC I work for speeding is a big no no. Trains these days have OTDR and downloads do take place. If you are found speeding you will have a meeting with a manager and it will go on record. Repeat offences will be dealt with.
Speed limits are there for a reason you get trained to drive to speed limits and to enable you to keep to the timetable and to drive to the conditions outside for example rain you brake earlier to avoid problems snow again you brake earlier. We get trained for all events and get random checks by managers be it via a download or a manager going out on an assessment where they will access your driving.

 

As a driver in the 80’s and 90’s, services were timed to run at a specific speed with make up times included to allow you to catch up if running late. I don’t think this is the case on TSW, this is why it is difficult to run to time. This also applied to freight working where departure, arrival and passing times were shown in the Working Time Table.

 

I wonder if they have actual timetables for most of the routes, or they just calculate "average speeds" in a spreadsheet program using recommended track speeds? Not a rail person, but when I was dispatching trucks we always figured in a 20% "delay" in there in case of traffic, weather, stoplights, etc. No one would have ever made it on time if we just plugged in the speed limits.

 

Assuming you're talking about TSW (rather than real life planning) most of the time tables are based on real ones aiui.

 

Maybe times have changed, but when my old man was knocking about on the railway he would tell me stories about train drivers getting sacked because of fail play.
He used to work as PICOP and was based at London Bridge, he’d tell me all sorts of stories involving train drivers with some running red lights, as he was part of the team who would conduct these investigations.

It seems more likely that someone would get an instant dismissal due to the circumstances of the SPAD incident. Like, them checking their mobile phone as one example.

 

Remember, the speed limit isnt a target. Line speed may be 125, but you drive to the conditions of the track, weather and such.

Its similar to driving a car in that respect. (Before some smart person comes along I know the two aren't the same).

 

Speculations all through the post sadly.

you can’t say a driver was distracted by a phone and had a sod without PROOF and if you sacked a driver for having a spad and used the phone distraction as an excuse you better have really good evidence to back your paperwork up because the union and the driver would have a field day at a tribunal and win hands down without solid evidence. Fact if matter is drivers DO NOT get sacked for having a spad. Source I work on the railways as a driver

 

Line speed is what drivers aim for that’s how the timetable gets worked and how things on paper anyway run smoothly. This is why when in Autum a new timetable comes out it adjusts the running times to cater for leaf fall etc so you will have trains deserving termini a minute or two earlier to compensate for the leaf fall and early braking etc. but as drivers we drive to the speed limits as if we don’t late running happens and that’s when questions will get asked etc a minute delay on ykur train has a knock on effect to other trains and can mess up the timetable ver quickly

 

I don’t believe you can’t get sacked though. It depends on the circumstances and severity of the incident in question.
Saying no one gets the sack is totally not true.

Maybe not 20 years ago, but most modern trains have cameras inside the driver cab, so they’d be bang to rights if they were caught using a phone.

 

There are no cameras inside driving cabs on any stock unions wouldn’t allow it. They have cameras fitted externally for forward facing cctv but not in drivers cabs.

again just to reiterate you won’t get sacked for HAVING a spad yes you can get disciplined and dismissed for not following procedures after the spad 100 percent BUT for having a spad you won’t get sacked which is what you said first of all.

 

I've always known it as OTMR.
I was recording between York and Darlington, the Speedo reading based on unworn/worn wheel diameter is definitely a risk, it's actually quite a big safety concern for some operations in the UK such as tramways. May have been a particular set or sets with a dodgy Speedo setup or new wheels.
I'm pretty sure I spoke to one of the recent fleet engineers about it at the time, but the drivers where letting enthusiasts get photos with the power cars and even start up the engines sometimes.
But I'll not drag the thread off anymore.

 

I stand by what I said. It isn't a target. It's a limit, the highest you're allowed to go. No matter what line speed is, you drive according to the conditions, which is true whether its a train, bus or car - you only go as fast as driving conditions allow.

I've seen it myself, trains going slower than line speed because the conditions don't allow it. I even know drivers who have said such a thing.

I don't see anywhere I said that drivers don't aim for the speed limit.

 

Many reasons a driver may not be driving to a speed limit sign
TSR
ESR
SLW
Instructions from a signaller to proceed at caution
restrictive signals
carrying out a line check
Carrying out a procedure

As drivers are trained to drive at line speed in all conditions how do you think TOCS manage to maintain timetables spring, summer, Autumn, Winter

 

Yes I'm well aware of this stuff. I had to learn some of it for my job.

Of course they're trained at line speed. How else would they know how to react in specific situations.

Well obviously they use their route knowledge

I have never said that they don't hit line speed (please quote where I said anything like this). I said they drive according to the conditions of their route, if its not safe for a driver to be at line speed, then they won't be.

 

what is your job if i may ask are you a driver as well ?

 

I'm not sure it was even the case 20, 30, 40 years ago re: SPADs and job loss. A good example is the infamous Ladbrooke Grove signal. 8 different drivers SPAD'd that signal and none of them were sacked prior to the crash. As it was, the ninth driver to SPAD didn't survive the resulting rail accident but the report stated that the SPAD was almost inevitable at some point due to sighting and crossreading issues.

So SPAD =\= automatic dismissal. It wouldn't be something any driver would want on their record, far from it. However, if you boot people out of the workforce at the first such error the network would be out of drivers in very short order. Those that would be left would simply not be incentivised to self-report safety issues for fear of repercussions. That then leads to even greater issues that will come back to bite you later.

 

Exactly this

 

TSW will then be automatically uninstalled and Steam will refuse you to launch the game anymore.

 

But you can buy store credits in the micro transaction store that they asked if players wanted in the survey to restart your license :p

 

Better idea - the licence should be allowed but instead the players get to vote on your punishment

 

20 runs on NYT(very buggy route) with safety systems on

 

I raise you LIRR 2.0 for that. Even sticking at 10 or 15 MPH below line speed I still get nailed by the safety systems.

Lesser penalties… for a first offence, complete a minimum of 300 miles on Cane Creek sticking to the speed limit, before the game allows you back on any other route.
Second infraction, 300 miles on Cane Creek then 300 on West Somerset to teach speed discipline, before allowed back on the main line.

 

On this route, the speed limit depends on the signal. And the speed prompts are right on the dashboard. The "punishment" is too light.

 

Yes, on a more serious note, we could have something like being summoned in the training center by a manager and compeled to do a short tutorial related to compliance with speed limits.

Something symbolic, it's a game after all, but it would contribute to the realism.

And, who knows, maybe it would add an argument for obtaining licenses.

 

How about just running the tutorial after 3 SPADs on a single piece of eqpt?
Minus the superfluous speech and time wasting?
I get it's "realism" but if you are asking for a staff meeting in a video game, you don't know what fun is =-)

 

Of course, it's still just a game.
But I've read suggestions here for a sort of career mode, where you'd start your shift at the depot, etc.
Something symbolic and, above all, not boring could fit into this approach.

Regarding the allocation of licenses, idk but that might contribute to present TSW as a "serious", responsible simulation.
I have in mind that front door you can't open in the 1972 Tube Stock... it's not much, but (among other things) it allowed us to have the Tube in TSW...

And on the other hand, we've got this scenario where you had to exceed speed in the Azuma (and still got the LNER licence...) !!!

 

There's a Mastery requirement on both Cathcart and the Goblin line that require you to significantly exceed the speed limit...

 

Seems DTG is blowing hot and cold.
On the one hand the game stops immediately as you do a SPAD even by a millimeter, and on the other we have such nonsense as this...