Discussion in 'Train Sim World Discussion' started by chieflongshin, May 31, 2022.
I think you underestimate how many man-hours re-doing a passenger interior takes.
Honestly for me the thing is I expected a route that was very clearly the first of a technology. A first of a signalling system. A first of a timetable style. A first of a route research technique.
However, even though it has it's shortcomings, this route really does not feel like it's a prototype for steam and steam era routes to come, it feels like a proper TSW route (and those are never flawless either). It just feels right to me.
Also, in preservation I've rarely seen a loco or MU or coach seen returned exactly to it's original state. I think it's rather difficult to compare 'backdated' preserved trains to the trains when they were brand new.
Taking this oppertunity to chip into the 'should this route have diesels' discussion, I don't think so. If they were to make a diesel pack I'd be highly unlikely to buy it (perhaps the LMS or Bullied protoype diesel series, but as those are just a handfull of locos that are nearly impossible to do research on and would only have a handfull of runs in timetable mode that would still be an unlikely buy for me). I bought the route for a steam in it's prime experience, and introducing diesels on it is in most cases a far stretch (yes the class 40 existed in 1958, but not there, and yes some 101's may have been allocated to Crewe, but the theory that they probably did some runs on Liverpool - Crewe just isn't enough to justify them for me. Instead the route needs more steam loco add-ons, which I'm more than certain will come.
To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised to see a new steamer loco DLC within the two next roadmaps... Knowing DTG, now they have the tech to do steam, they'll probably milk it as much as possible, and in this case, I'm happy to buy
I really hope they do announce steam loco dlcs. It had been ages since there was a DTG loco dlc which scares me a little that SoS won't get its timetable fleshed out.
Be nice if they announce one Tuesday although people will probably say it should have come with dlc then
I gave in at the end and got it - my feedback overall is pretty similar to what has been said and I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to steam engines. Thank you for adding a manual firing mode, but perhaps you want to make "auto" the default option, surprisingly on xbox it is set to "manual" by default.
Also jackhammer wasn't a big deal, it happened a few times, but every time going to the tail of the train and back to the front fixed it, only once I had to use the free camera and travel backwards down the line to re-load the locomotive. It's worse than the most DLC, but much better than Arosa - also playing with motion blur off is not a big deal either.
My only question - is superelevation (banking) as seen in my screenshot period accurate? I remember when doing research on the APT that the WCML only had superelevation after the tracks and signalling were updated in the early 2000s, but it was some time ago, and I could be wrong, so if someone is more knowledgeable please let me know. This isn't a criticism of the DLC, just personal curiosity, it's not that important TBH.
About the route I agree with Lamplight, it's not amazing but the gradients are fun, and I can see the appeal of having a higher speed section. It's decent overall.
Also sadly it seems like all the adverse signals in timetable are caused by go via points, with traffic being pretty scarse, and segregated to their own line, so not much opportunity for adverse signals, but I haven't played a lot, so perhaps I've chosen some "bad" services...
Decided to go easy on myself and used the full HUD (shame!) and it was already fairly busy, it's going to be an amazing experience whenever I get good enough to drive HUDless, utmost respect to who did it for real.
One of the first duties of the 40s in 1958 was on express passenger services on the WCML. There is even a photograph of one on the Merseyside express on the Class 40 Wikipedia page. It's dated 1960 but they were operating between Crewe and Liverpool in 1958.
To be honest I've worked on 101s and read about them extensively but still couldn't be certain if every production run had the same interior or if they all changed in the same way on refurbishment so not sure the average TSW fan will know or care if it's 100 per cent accurate.
"The first locomotive, D200, was delivered to Stratford on 14 March 1958. Following fitter and crew training, D200 made its passenger début on an express train from London Liverpool Street to Norwich on 18 April 1958. Five of the prototypes, Nos. D200, D202-D205, were trialed on similar services on the former Great Eastern routes, whilst the remaining five, Nos. D201, D206-D209, worked on Great Northern services on the East Coast Main Line.
"Direct comparisons on the Great Eastern Main Line showed they offered little advantage over the "Britannia" class steam locomotives when driven well, and the Eastern Region declined to accept further machines as they deemed them unsuitable to replace the Pacific steam locomotives on the East Coast Main Line, preferring to hold on until the "Deltic" Class 55 diesels were delivered.
"The London Midland Region was only too pleased, as the Eastern Region's decision released additional locomotives to replace their ageing steam fleet. The West Coast Main Line had been starved of investment for many years and the poor track and generally lower speeds (when compared to the East Coast route) suited Class 40s"
So the 40s got to the northwest- after the original batch of ten had been tested and rejected by the Eastern Region over the course of 1958.
Like the theorganist said the 08 would be most suited and imo would be most useful and would be good messing with in the yard or even just as an asset but I can understand people wanting just steam and not against that either. I do like steam but I prefer the older stuff and didn't think this route would interest me but if it is patched up the way that has been said I might look again, after GWE of course, let's not jump the gun,
Just to add to this one - the problem might be of a bigger scale as for example SD70ACes are also producing "idle" sounds when pulling a train uphill. Maybe it is something wrong with AI trains in general in regards to their sound.
Not sure if this is a bug or was caused by me running about 10 minutes late on the service! I got stuck at this red signal approaching Edge Hill for about 10 minutes. Requested to pass a couple of times, denied. Had to quit as I had no more time to spare, maybe the signal would've cleared? This was 08:03 Manchester London Road to Liverpool Lime Street with the Jubilee.
I do want to add that I was having a great time driving this service, just trying to get the hang of things. There's a lot to enjoy here.
As boring as the long straights are for freight, I have to admit that it's quite exciting to get a Jubilee up to 90 mph on them. "It's decent overall" is probably the best way to sum it up. Though I will say, the big yards, docks, and bridges in the Speke/Ditton/Runcorn area really speak to my love for Victorian/Edwardian architecture and heavy industry.
That's too bad but not wholly unexpected given the rather sparse timetable. Sorry if my posts were somewhat misleading based on my impressions of the scenarios.
No problem, I figured it was either the scenarios or just the go via from what I've seen on the streams. You still have to keep an eye on the signals even if you know you won't encounter much traffic anyway if you want to be realistic, so I think the challenge of using semaphores and learning how to read signals on those huge gantries is still interesting, even if it's not as "exciting" as it would have been if there was more traffic.
Nice to know that the scenarios are better than other DLC, I'll do a bit of timetable to familiarise with the route and the trains and then I'll give them a try.
After reading this thread I had to sign up and comment. Been a player of this sim and its predecesors since i bought MSTS in 2001/2002 time and wow what a long way we have come.
To be honest, up until this point I had very little interest in TSW and TSW 2 because the content didnt really interest me, I still bought the games though to support the developers to have a little play even though it might not have been my main interest area.
I have to say, how pleased I am steam has come to this game finally, what 5ish years after the initial TSW release. The fact that its taken 5 years should tell you all you need to know about how difficult this has been. Lets not forget we had settle carlisle and the SDJR as default content in both previous games.... (Anyone remember converting pendennis castle from an AI only loco to a drivable loco.... as i say we have come a long way in 20 years!).
The point being, people seem rather keen to "nit pick" about the wrong hats or whatever rather than appreciate the work thats gone in to develope this on a 3rd party game engine that i am sure is not as bespoke as the RS code was (although I am sure a lot of that came from MSTS - more of that later ).
So what I'd say is that even though its not perfect, yes, there isn't much AI, yes the draw distances, sounds, fireman etc aren't perfect but as after 5 years congrats to the dev team for pulling it off and making it as good as it is. I've loved every minute so far, just wish those Jubilees were LMS :P
And to all those quickly jumping on the refund bandwagon after 1 day (1 freeking day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! jees) or with nothing but negative things to say - sounds like they decided they didn't like TSW this when they stepped off their black 5 in 1968.... - and wanting to go back to RS/RW/TS/TSX/TSC or whatever we are calling it today - how short sighted is that? If you want further development then you have to invest in the brand and give the devs a ROI otherwise there will be no DLC, there will be no patches, there will be no future content..... one day.... so short sighted, sigh...
TSW is the future and it will get better - RW etc is effectivly a 15 year old game now, with 15 years of development and improvement, and 3rd party content which does not suffer the same ties and difficulties as developing original content does, so its bound to be an improvement and its bound to be refined.... Those developers don't have to code the source code of the game, its a much smaller remit.... Don't forget that.
To use a metaphor - Those type of comments remind me of someone i know. We always go out for an indian, usually to the same place but sometimes to a new or different restaurant. Every time we go to a different place they compare the meal to the the normal place and its always different or never as good, so they just end up going back to the normal place and never trying anything new......
Lets face it, its at the end of the product life cycle and is unlikely to have any further development, TSW is the future and we need to embrace that and despite the fact it may not yet do everything RW does or do things in the same way railworks does it does other things better and has plenty more room for improvement and development and how exciting is that.
Thanks for reading,
I was playing a timetable mission earlier. It was the first one on the list for the 8F. I had backed into the train and got out to couple them together and it just blew everything off the track. I tried being further away and closer and even slamming into them and the end result is always an explosive derailment... Also unable to get the coal train started when it was raining. Not sure what I'm doing wrong but all I get is wheel slip no matter what I do with the sanders, regulator, or reverser.
Derailments I believe are due to the small wagon size and if you’re a bit heavy handed they derail (coupled with a physics issue to be rectified). Go gentle for now
I'm not sure if this has already been discussed....but does anyone think the wheels in the player driven loco look to be spinning way faster than they should be ? This is with zero wheel slip and regulator fully closed. It all looks rather comical
It looks obvious when playing the Really Reliable Rescue scenario when you are pulling another loco with its wheels spinning at the correct speed right behind.
For me, this is the Great Western Express of Steam technology. Basically the first DLC for steam (as GWE was for passenger), and the begining of a new journey and following technology improvements.
Is it perfect? No, there are bugs, and it is obvious that the technology still being developed (as was obvious with GWE).
But even then, there are things that you would be hard to press to find in TS classic, especially in the eraly steam locos there. Just the brakes alone make it hard for me to go back...
Brakes in TS classic behave like modern brakes, you apply them, watch the pressure (presure that is the same for the whole brake pipe, no matter how long the train is) change on your perfectly working gauge, and then lap. Rinse and repeat. Here, you apply the brakes, you see the gauge almost immediately fall to 0, and then creep back up once you stop applying...because the gauge is only for your loco, air needs time to propagate through the very rudimentary system.
Then there are goodies like working ejectors, or variable piston torque based on piston cycle..
Honestly, these things are more important to me than a little barren scenery at some parts, or the lack of AI trains. Becasue it demostrates DTGs willingness to take the simulation up a notch, and I'm eager to see what we will get once manual fireman is ironed out, and, once the technology matures, we get the more complex trains, like A4, or US steam freight.
Ofc, those bugs present should be ironed out, and I hope DTG will stand by their words, to focus now little more on bugfixing.
I do think there will be some exponential leaps in the next locos for sure. I'm going to re-evaluate my position on this. Steam don't appear to have refunded so I shall endure.
Has anyone noticed sleeper draw distance is very different in this route. I'm guessing due to the volume of track and optimising.
Aren't they "buried" in the ground rather than not rendered?
Oh yes! I think there was another loco that could be converted as well, I think you had to add something to an engine file (was it a .eng?) or add a file yourself, can't remember now... but it perfectly illustrates how rudimentary MSTS was (even if at the time it was very good), now with Simugraph it's almost like building a real locomotive digitally (from what they say)... in MSTS there were just the .eng and .cab (IIRC) and you were good to go
I believe it was an AI Royal Scot. As Bossman have one in their TSC collection (on my shopping list!) wouldn’t be too surprised to see it pop up in TSW along maybe with their Black Five (also on my shopping list for TSC, now I’ve got the JT Kyle line back up and running).
I don't believe so no as they appear with the camera movement.
Milk it? Thats called using the potential of last 1.5 years development , and yes i hope they bring a bunch of loco dlcs for this route.
This was the right choice to do. I highly would like a class101 at crewe (even as a.i) or other present diesels. But all that is possible in a separate timetable.
The interior of the mark 1 looks good to me, nice to have b1 bogies on them. Maybe we get also the b4 at some point for the BG coach. (This would be for modern operation)
Why hasn't some sort of PIS been implemented for this route? I thought it was now default for each new route, if of course it was/is there in real life. It looks horrible seeing the blank boards at Lime Street with just delayed/cancelled, time and destination with no information.
Was the artwork not done in time? Will PIS be added to SoS in future by Adam's team?
I've noticed draw distance in general to be quite short and noticeable - I've done a few journeys and then upped my view distance setting, will see if that makes much difference.
I have mine running with higher ini settings and this is how it appears
Having had my first proper drive (from Crewe to Liverpool) I have to say from the driving perspective it is a big thumbs up from me. Initially I thought the cab too quiet when I had a quick drive the other day but I think it is just right especially at speed. It was very immersive with the sound of the loco, the rocking of the loco, the firewoman in this case (but I won't go there) leaning out of the window and then looking ahead then doing some shovelling. I loved being able to look back on the train so naturally.
It definitely needs the track joint sounds though, as you really notice the lack of them when racing over point work and even more so when you are coasting into Liverpool across the numerous points when the engine is a bit quiet apart from the din of the safety valves. I had it on automatic firing mode for this first run which isn't overly realistic, even when we were in Liverpool Lime Street at rest the firewoman was vigorously shovelling away as though she was on piecework. Also, the safety valves don't appear to actually relieve the boiler pressure, I certainly couldn't see the needle on the gauge or the HUD going down until I opened the regulator and so the cacophony endured when on down hill stretches.
I also can't recall seeing any AI trains, probably did pass one or two but you can't hear them, even less so from the noise of the footplate
Overall then, lovely looking route and stock, immersive foot plate experience, clearly a lot of effort has gone into the detail.
In my opinion the routes needs the track joint sounds (sounds like they are on the way). Definitely some DLC providing as there are too few services at the moment, although looking at my 1954 passenger timetable it wasn't that busy, there is so much scope for add-ons for this route. With these and the AI sounding like a steam train then this route will completely come alive and I think could be one of the most memorable train simming experiences, well until a Riviera in the 50's route comes out, which will even more test the drivers skills and the engines are so much prettier!
Anyway I hope DTG don't abandon it as without any expansions, despite what I said above the route will end up getting stale as there needs to be more to see on the route in terms of traffic.
Has anyone else seen any blood and custard coaches yet? I'm playing on PC and haven't seen any at all in timetable mode.
Only maroon by now, but i found finally the BG coach.
Seems unlikely I hope. DTG have usually updated routes after release (I hope we'll see PIS at some point for example, plus the track joint sounds). And Matt made a strong suggestion on stream that some sort of steam loco is coming as DLC for the route.
One thing I noticed is how finicky the wagons are when coupling. There was a time table where it was basically unplayable because the moment you touch the wagon to couple, it will fly through the air and decouple. DTG needs to take a look at the physics. I am also having issues with DTG live updating in Tier 2. I have played a lot of timetable scenarios with LMS Stainier but it is not recognized for rewards
Yes, the sleepers are for all intents missing in action. On PS5, which I’m assuming is fairly similar to the PC version, you have to get really close to see them and never see them ahead when driving in the cab. The general scenery draw distance is better than in Sherman Hill for example but there are terraced house assets that have a really bad LOD issue on PS5. They look like a row of haunted house fairground attractions but less fun. I guess there has been a lot of robbing Peter to pay Paul with resources for this route.
And one funny thing I noticed at Runcorn is that there is traffic driving over what is actually a narrow footbridge in reality. It’s quite disconcerting seeing double decker buses driving across it knowing what it is in real life but DTG have made it into a road.
Then you should see the diesel loco's how they make your fps commit suicide with the exhaust
Matt talked on the stream about how they'd worked on the particle effects for steam, to try to make sure that they don't make the fps drop too much. Of course, as with other TSW2 things, diesel smoke probably doesn't feature the same optimisation yet (maybe a preservation crew job for later?).
I meant milk it in a positive way!!! Of course they should make the most of it.
The first ten were part of the pilot scheme and delivered to the GE/GN during the spring and summer of 1958. All ten stayed on the eastern until July/August 1967. The production batch started with D210 and entered service from May 1959, Crewe North and Edge Hill getting their first examples towards the end of the following month.
I’d say the most suitable diesels for the route in 1958 would be the LMS D3/7 shunters (12003-12032), most of which worked in yards around Crewe and Liverpool, although 08s wouldn’t be a terrible alternative.
Finally had some decent time to play and enjoying it so far! Steam is my main focus in train sim games so I've been waiting for this since TSWs launch!
My critisms are just things I would like to see fixed and improved for a better experience and no way reflect the amazing work the team has put into this release, the small details really do stand out for me. (Most of these appear to be known/being worked on).
1) Full Manual Firing I hope makes an appearance sooner rather than later to deal with the safety valve issue.
2) Missing AI loco sounds and exhause effects have bothered me the most now, its very immersion breaking. Glad its beeing looked into, I agree it appears to be when pulling stock (Wagons & Coaches) as I have seen light loco moves with sounds and steam/exhaust effects).
3) Also glad the track joint sounds are being looked into, but this is still hit and miss even on NTP which currently does work.
4) Again another known issue with derailing, Im enjoying the challenge but even with great care breaking, derailing is still a random issue. So glad to see this is beeing looked into.
5) Liveries: Some amazing liveries so far for Locos and rolling stock BUT im finding that rolling stock liveries to not be showing up in timetable mode on PC, they only work when set them up in own scenario planner. Wonder if this is a bug or intended to help performance, But I would still like the option.
6) The smoke stack effects on buildings seem to be the thing affecting my performance negativly, especially in areas such as Crewe and Edge Hill, as well as the shed areas/large track maybe this can be toned down alittle.
7) I really really wish could move/swing the windbreaker glass in the heads outview as I dont like it, feels like blocks my view :P
Had a run on one of the 600t freight trains. Transitioned from fast line to goods line. Hit the hill at 20mph (2.7%) coming into Crewe. Stalled out twice. These are definitely interesting to drive. Still not 100% on steam but the challenge was good. It's slowly converting me.
True. An organic experience. Meeting the machine. Challenging grades.
This has tons of potential. Sort out the missing sounds (sound again arrgghh), sort out the bugs, get 4 or 5 DLC done for it to flesh it all out and it could be immense.
Running the Jubilee on Brighton Mainline... I guess blowbacks are not simulated.
The AI fireman's so basic it'd be a recipe for disaster, basically implementing a random game over generator.
can someone point me to how I add an 8F or Jubilee to WSR ideally with some AI. Or even just quickly for a run on the route.
I've found something bad to say about it, which no doubt will please you all.
The timetable is WAY too tight. I arived at Edge Hill 2 minutes late despite going as fast as I could, I then arrived at Runcorn 5 minutes late and despite gunning it to the best of my ability (including going up to 25mph over the speed limit at points) arrived (well, went blasting through as I was too concentrated on keeping speed up and making up time) at the next stop nearly 7 minutes late (by the time I was due, I'd just got to the top of the hill outside Runcorn, after barely reaching 20). I rage quit when I went through the station that was about 2cm long anyway
I did a non-stop service before that and had a similar experience, tried to push the loco as hard as I could and arrived at Liverpool 11 minutes late (stopped early because I was too busy messing on with the fire, so by the time I opened the doors it was 12 minutes), but at least I got a gold medal for it.
For the Jubilee services, there needs to be like an extra 10-12 minutes allowed for each of them.
Thats easy. Make a new scenario in the scenario planner. Tick the box "everything allowed". Now the 8f and jubilee is visible when choosing your train.
There is no Achievement in Steam, so that mean once the Journey is done, unless the Mastery was not competed, there is nothing else to be done in this trainset :-(
Wtf is all this then?
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