Spirit Of Steam Release Open Letter

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by JellyScrub, Nov 4, 2021.

  1. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the railtour idea would work if it included the 08 and 101 as well (and then there'd be people complaining about two 52 packs), but if done right it could have avoided the hassle of the initial release of Diesel Legends. The marketing was done completely wrong, and I think the whole DLC could have worked better if it was just a scenario pack, which included railtour services using different trains instead of a new timetable that was jarring at best. Alternatively, if the DLC was marketed in a less serious way, people wouldn't get false expectations of the DLC
     
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  2. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Couldn't agree more.
     
  3. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I never said how important it was to me. When they decided to use a train they had, which was not the correct train for the route, they made the decision that a new livery was not important enough to make. Had they decided it was more important than the other things that they had to do, then it would have been done. That is not difficult to work out and I didn’t have to be there to know that. I’m pretty sure you asked us to explain why they didn’t change the livery on the 101 and I and others have answered it. You are never going to accept an answer so you may as well drop it. They thought other things were more important to do.
     
  4. steamfan#1309

    steamfan#1309 Active Member

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    Can you give us a more in depth hint to what one of the engines are or planes to be in there.
     
  5. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    But it IS a '70s focused diesel train pack. So what is the issue? It wasn't marketed as "GWE in the '70s", so I don't see your issue. But this is getting kind of off topic regarding steam, so could you stop now, please?
     
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  6. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    DLGW was never, ever marketed as a route, but as a loco pack.
     
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  7. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    *Cough* Class 101 *cough*
     
  8. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    There has been no credible answer as to why the 101 was not put in the correct livery when they redone the class 52. All I got was assumptions. So unless you know for a FACT what they done you might as well 'Drop it!' and move on so this thread can continue.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2021
  9. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Community Manager Staff Member

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    Let's get this thread back on topic please.
     
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  10. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    I also am curious if it will be a one-country only thing. For example only one UK DLC with a UK steam loco and route. Or whether german and american steam DLCs will follow after that (given the fact UK would be the first one).
     
  11. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    matinakbary
    The latest roadmap says something like"Spirit of Steam, first release". That makes me think of a staggered release. The other parts may well be other countries.
     
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  12. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I thought so as well. At least I hope this will be the case.
     
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  13. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    Before we got all carried way talking about how Spirit of Steam's gonna be this massive 12 route pack or something I want to remind everyone what Protagonist said.
    At least to me the wording implies that it's a singular route, not a route pack. Now I'm sure there will be more steam era routes, and that they will be covering multiple countries over time, but that's not happening until the current Spirit of Steam project's done.

    As for the first release remark on the roadmap I'm not certain on what it's currently referring to. But it certainly does not mean there's a second route planned for sure, there's other ways to interpret it. Maybe the first release is the base route, and later releases are referring to loco addons planned for it later on. Alternatively maybe Spirit of Steam's indeed just one route, but said route's being released in phases instead of the usual one and done approach. Both of these explanations wouldn't go against what Protagonist said, but explains the first release remark on the roadmap.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2021
  14. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    I don't think anybody here expected something like rush hour where we get a massive amount of content basically for free. I'm sure it will be three DLCs - each for one of the "big three". At least I hope so :)
     
  15. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

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    Likely doing one fully fledged route and seeing how well it sells, if it meets expectations then more steam-era routes could follow.

    I don't think they plan out DLC releases years in advance and set them in stone, more like they compile a list of "do-able" routes and when the time comes for picking the next route they choose what is most appropriate at the time, e.g. if they can obtain adequate reference material and if they have enough loco/route builders at hand to finish it in the expected time.

    This all depends on whether they can implement the mechanics in simugraph first, no point building a route if they can't first get the new feature to work with it. Probably building locos first, trying them on existing routes, then if successful building an appropriate route for the loco(s) and releasing it all as one.
     
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  16. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't be surprised if they had the route all done and dusted as that is the easiest part from what they said in previous streams. I see the Loco's themselves as the trickiest part but then they have experience with TS1 so shouldn't be a huge stumbling block.

    The sound will be the most telling, for me anyway. Hearing a real Steam Loco pull away is just awesome so I hope they can capture most of it. Never tried steam in TS1 so don't know good/bad that it.
     
  17. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Same back at you. You have no more information than anyone else as to DTG's decision-making process, but continue to hold out blue/grey livery as "evidence" of something or other.

    There is nothing "easy" about a vintage route. You can't lift the trackage from Google Earth and you can't send people out with video cameras. It requires painstaking research in archives of old photos (with the certainty that you still won't have 100% coverage). And that's before getting into the construction of all-new assets, since you can't just re-use modern buildings and trackside equipment.
     
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  18. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    If you had highlighted one more word in Sam’s post, it actually reads “a new route add-on set” which implies a set of routes, not just the one. There should be a comma after the word ‘set’.
     
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  19. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    Set might have a different meaning, as in "set in an era suitable for the stock running on it", thus just referring to time.
    However I believe we'll have a British, American and German route. That's the only way they'll evaluate if the experiment was successful. People who only like German or British content might not want an American route and viceversa.
    After all, DTG is trying to scoop up all the people who are holding out from TSW2 due to the lack of steam, so they'll probably go all out on the first release. Might not be a bundle, but still, it should hopefully be good.
     
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  20. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    One prospect, which I don't deem unlikely, is that Spirit of Steam will be next summer's campaign/bundle/season pass, with, as you say, one each British, German and American route.
     
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  21. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    With regard to research, well there are a few resources available to assist with a steam era route. Google Earth does have some UK aerial imagery which dates back to the 1940's. It's black and white but quite sharp and legible. Old Maps has gone but for now at least we still have Sabre Maps and the NLS where old Ordnance Survey maps can be referenced. Popular routes like the S&D have considerable printed matter available and there are the versions in other sims which could help too.

    Another important factor with a historical route, even one set as late is the 1950's, is that very few people are around who might be in a position to criticise the fine detail. If you were 15 in 1955 by now you would be 81 so times that by likely interest in a computer train game and you might get away with more than you think. Towns and cities were considerably smaller than they are now, less tall buildings so creating a satisfactory urban or suburban backdrop should be somewhat easier too!
     
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  22. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    WTF? Of course a 101 in blue-grey is 'evidence' due to the fact it wasn't used on the GWR in the 70's, should have been a 117 BR Blue. I suggest you move on before the thread gets warned again.

    Your being a bit pedantic over the steam route no? It wasn't me who said the routes were 'easy' it was DTG themselves as they said it was largely automated. I would take your pedantry up with them and I was referring to the more general scenery rather than individual buildings and stations.

    If you think they are going to be any where near 100% I'll have some of that what you are smoking, if they will do a period route I imagine a huge artistic licence being used and if so will be easier than a modern route no? I would say the main focus will be on the Loco and how it drives.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2021
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  23. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    DTG Protagonist, when you said Spirit of Steam;

    What did you mean?

    I read it as to mean that it's a single route, set era-appropriate for the stock running on it.

    But stujoy brings up a good point that it can be interpreted as being a set of routes, era-appropriate for the stock running on it.

    Both definitions are reasonable considering the lack of a comma before or after the word "set", and the only person that knows for sure which is correct is you, so could you please clarify what you meant?
     
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  24. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Ah, a comma here, a period there. Wars have been started, empires have fallen due to punctuation errors and the misunderstandings that come from them.
    I agree with fabristunt and solicitr. The most likely scenario (oops! ) is that steam will be a Rush Hour type promotion with a route and locos from each of the major markets.
    Did I say " Coming next Summer "? stujoy, keep your signature and your powder dry. :love::love:
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2021
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  25. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Language can be tricky at times that's true but it was interesting where Sam said 'A new route' It could be interpreted by saying he meant only one Route?
     
  26. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    What if it's not the summer release? Maybe it will come out earlier and the summer bundle, if we get one, might include a steam route, a diesel route and an electric one. That would be neat.
     
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  27. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Dovetail Special Projects Staff Member

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    I believe this is a speculation thread. I therefore leave you to speculate.
     
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  28. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    :D:D:D
     
  29. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    Spec: i don't think it will come this summer. More something end of the year (christmas sales?), because we know how the roadmap works. They worked on steam for nearly a year. And now the release is in planning. And between adding a new item on the roadmap and releasing it, there isn't thaaat much time inbetween (e.g. Cathcart, Sherman Hill etc.).

    So I take a wild guess and say, we can drive the first steam locos around christmas after Tharandther Rampe, the G6 (maybe even the 420 because TSG's initial plan was to release it this year) and the two US routes have been released.
     
  30. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I’m wondering how the keys will map out as I’d envisage there’s more needed than the ones we utilise now
     
  31. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    One would hope this was considered at the design stage of TSW1.
    At a minimum you are going to need firebox doors, shovel, injectors, damper and blower. Unless they try and do it like the steamer in Derail Valley where it’s all done by interaction and a right PITA it is too.
    The HUD will also need updating to reflect firebox temperature and height, boiler water level and pressure, steam flow and reserves of coal in the tender or bunker/tanks on a tank engine.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2021
  32. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    For those who want to prepare themself, below a LMS video how to fire a Steam Loco the right way. Shows also why its a challenge for DTG to make the Steam core for tsw2.

    Little and often: ;)

    2.jpg

    Video Title on youtube: LMS Archive - Little and often

    youtube.com/watch?v=PVIr66K_rUA
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2021
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  33. jamesthepershing

    jamesthepershing Member

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    Regarding an xmas release, that's what I was thinking would happen, but with only like 3 roadmaps to go before the end of the year, I don't think it will be, and if it isn't this xmas, it'll be a summer thing I expect.
     
  34. jamesthepershing

    jamesthepershing Member

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    To be perfect honest though, I'm looking forward to seeing pictures of it more than it actually releasing....
     
  35. nwp1

    nwp1 Well-Known Member

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    Summer 2020 TSW2
    Summer 2021 Rush Hour
    Summer 2022 Steam?
    Summer 2023 TSW3?
     
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  36. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Don't give them TSW3 ideas. Making TSW2 a separate release from the originsl TSW was still one of the silliest release, if you ask me. Hopefully they don't plan on more of it. Just keep updating what we currently have.
     
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  37. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    Well it was due to a massive core engine update, so it's kinda understanable.

    Well good point, but will DTG really leave out the big opportunity to release something as a good christmas gift. Or at least as something you can invest much time into between xmas and new year? Driving a steam loco through the snow would be a perfect experience. I think the next roadmap will reveal the first route and/or loco, because until the next roadmap the American route will be released and shortly after that the G6. And we still do not have the next UK route announced - so counting one and one together, taking a wild guess, I'd say with the next roadmap we will know what route/loco and it will for sure be UK. And I think between the release of the US route and the steam DLC, the Tharandter Rampe will be released. But maybe I am wrong - maybe Tharandter Rampe it the route that comes around christmas and steam will follow after that.
     
  38. JellyScrub

    JellyScrub Active Member

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    And yet almost all of the old DLC was upgraded anyway. Plus Rush Hour again was another core update but didn't require purchasing of the game again. I'm no software engineer, but I feel like TSW2 could have just been an update to TSW2020.
     
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  39. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    most but not all, Id imagine if they had upgraded TSW2020 rather than released TSW2, there would have been considerable uproar over the removal of the NEC New York route, possibly even legal ramifications (although I dont know for certain over that).
     
  40. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    From what I've seen the jump from UE4.16 to 4.23 was actually quite a large one, with loads of new mechanics in place, whereas the move from 4.23 to 4.26 was comparatively fairly minor, so I have no issue with there being a payment or rebrand between TSW2020 and TSW2, and the mechanism has been used by developers for years (especially in sports games where you can get essentially the same game for years on end and pay each time for the priviledge)
    So maybe TSW2 is an advancement of TSW2020, but it's one which required a lot of investment by DTG and that investment meant recouping the cost. Some have an issue with that, obviously
     
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  41. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    I just have/had an issue with it, because I hate when basically the same game gets re-released pretty much every year or so. Just like you've said, football games, for example. I also hate how Train Simulator gets rebranded every year, when literally nothing changes apart from the menu and the loading screen. What's the point? Why can't it just remain Train Simulator and call it a day? Re-branding it to the current year won't attract any more players. It's already the bigger train simulator on the market, those who want it will get it anyway. They just make it look like a joke, "releasing" the same game every year.
     
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  42. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Not sure on that one. If I saw a game with a release date of 12th July 2009 would I think it was an up to date state of the art train simulator with development still in progress? Probably not. If it has next year's date in the title might I think it's up to date with development still going on. Yup
    So I think that such things CAN help with sales overall

    But on the point of TSW-TSW2, the difference was that the game engine works required were probably close to a rewrite, and as with other software, a reboot was possibly the only commercially sensible option
     
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  43. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    Well TS Classic has it worked out pretty well, so they'll most likely keep it similar.
     
  44. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    Euro Truck Simulator 2 has a nice old 2012 release date on its store page, and that has done nothing to stop its popularity. Also games like Minecraft and Team Fortress 2 are still stupidly popular without the need for yearly title change to note they're current. Honestly if anything I would tend to think a title change is a bad idea, because it's more likely to imply that's it's something more along the lines up a FIFA or Madden release where it's a entirely new game every year, not a update.
     
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  45. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Not sure on ETS sales figures year on year so wouldn't know. Minecraft is hardly ever updated (still on version 1.19) so maybe that doesn't NEED any update to it's core game.
    I do wonder if TS wasn't called TS2020/1/2 whether people would even look at it as anything close to "up to date" given it's based on an out of date engine, with out of date DLC and it never gets fixes... Even AP are pulling their own packs because they're just not up to scratch in 2021/2
     
  46. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    We don't have sales numbers for Train Simulator either, but we do have average player counts for both, and ETS2 clearly has a massive lead over Train Simulator.

    Here's Euro Truck Simulator 2's Steam Charts page.
    Also here's Steam's official game rankings.

    And here's Train Simulator's Steam Charts page.

    Sure it's not raw sales data, but it's a lot better than nothing, and it shows that Euro Truck is able to maintain a health player base despite how old it is, and without needing to have the year in the title.
    It gets a major update every six months, and yes, despite what the version number would lead you to believe a version number increase by 0.01 is actually a major update. But those updates are comparable to the yearly updates seen in Train Sim World, they're certainly bigger than the TSW2020 or TSW2 Rush Hour updates. I don't see how Minecraft is "hardly ever updated" when it's getting double the updates that TSW's receiving.

    Ironically though what you've said is actually true of Team Fortress 2, the last real major update I think was all the way back in 2017. The updates it receives at this point are just bug fixes and adding community made content to the game. So yes, there are games which absolutely don't need new content to be relevant, it's just that Minecraft isn't really a good example of that.
     
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  47. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. And remember that most of the routes in the "preserved collection" weren't available immediately so there would have been all sorts of complaints and threats of legal action!
     
  48. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Is it beyond the realms of possibility that TS1's graphics could be brought up to TSW2 standard?
     
  49. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Train Simulator's engine is from way back from 2007. It works totally differently, you can't just endlessly update an old engine. As technology and programming prograsses, newer and better solutions get found, and you will not be able to implement those to a decade old engine.

    You can play around with stuff like Reshade, or people tend to port older games to Unreal or Unity for fun, but those games are usually just for the looks, usually don't work as their original game did.
     
  50. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    I mean, technically you probably could with enough time and effort, it's just that moving to a new engine would require less effort in the long run.
     

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