Hello everyone. As a long-time player, who has enjoyed hours and hours of entertainment through TS classic and, now with the addition of steam locomotives to the game, TSW4. The models of the locomotives are lovely and apart from a few things, which have mostly been patched, they are very nice representations of the locomotives. I do, however, wish to see what is happening with the simulator aspect of the game. I found the Jubilee and 8F to be fairly decent engines to drive. Flying Scotsman, however, is somewhat of an anomaly. I just don't understand the physics, especially the reverser settings. The engine can sit at 40% reverser (which is about where you need to have it to get anything over 75 mph) and with the regulator wide open, you will hardly lose any pressure. Now of course that's lovely if you want to thrash the hell out of it, but hardly realistic. I do think DTG may be actively moving away from valuing the accuracy of the driving experience. For those of us who used to play this game for the simulation aspect and authentic driving experiences, TSW4 seems to favour simplicity in a seeming effort to help console users' experiences be easier. I think it's wonderful that console players can now access a good train simulator, it brings many people into our hobby, not to mention another market for DTG to tap into. I imagine there is quite a market for console players, but, surely PC players shouldn't have to have their experience simplified. When I think back to some 3rd party steam locomotives on TS Classic, there's absolutely no way you could operate those with a controller. It's just impossible with so many controls and extra features. It's time more 3rd party developers had access to the tools and created some content. I'm sure one day it will be interstellar. It feels quite cold this game at the moment. TS classic had a thriving community and it was so nice to see some healthy competition between 3rd party developers. People had a reason to want better, and better they got. Anyway, I don't wish to rant as I believe DTG are more than capable of pulling a very authentic experience off, I just hope they do focus more on that, especially in the case of steam locomotives. It'd be good to hear what improvements you make, here's a short list for example of what I think would be nice to see. - More accurate steam simulation (Steam Chest, Regulator operation) - Cylinder Cocks open under 10% regulator, as currently they don't. It doesn't do much visually for a slow start when they don't expel steam. - When releasing an engine for sale, release multiple liveries. Just one is not going to cut the mustard guys, especially now 3rd parties can't mod things properly and the livery designer is nice, but it's not great. Especially for realistic steam locomotives. - Add a guard's whistle. Button activated or, automatically when doors close. It just adds so much realism to the game. Even station master whistles would be great for AI trains. There are a few more, but that for me is a current improvement. It'd be interesting to see what you all think or would suggest, especially if you're a fan of Steam. Keep well, S.
I think we should reserve judgment until manual firing comes out. I think until then they are sticking to a very simplified steam model. Myself, I want to see steam from the valve gear- very unrealistic to see a steam engine running with no steam blowing out the lower corners.
I agree with the topic of steam locomotives, they do need some work. however, I am not sure that consoles are at all at fault here.
Before SoS they said, "manual firing" isnt ready. Currently i see DTG releasing Steam locomotives, and with TSW6 or 7, when the manual firing is ready, we have to versions of the 4f, 8f, jubilee... etc. For me i wish there would be more steam, more era period or heritage lines. Not sure if id didnt sell well. --> Or did it not sell well because its current half state, where you cant use the injectors, the water is not implemented and the missing manual firing. Everybody who is interested in a realistic steam experience, for sure wont buy the TSW ones. TSC is still the right place to get the full experience out of it.
I certainly wasn't blaming console users. I think it's just an excuse for DTG to be even lazier with accurate simulation. TS classic is superb, however, I have to say the visual perk of TSW4 is remarkable and very tempting to come back to. I'd love for them to just be more transparent with what their intentions are with this game. Will this eventually be more accurate and simulator-like, or, will it remain a sort of mix of simulation and arcade-style gameplay? Time will tell, but it would certainly be nice to see some improvement in steam physics and behaviours.
I agree. It'd be really nice to see some more steam. I wonder what the sales percentages are for steam locos/ routes. It would be interesting to see what the market is like. A shame though that a game which is supposed to be the next generation of train simulators to not the place to come for the best experience. I'd say that's a massive flaw. One can hope for improvements on what is a superb base to build on.
Yes, but when will manual firing come out? It's been two years and it hasn't even been mentioned in the roadmaps since TSW4 came out.
They have gone very quiet about the state of steam simulation which frankly across all the locos is very unrealistic. The question was posed several times in the Q&A for the last roadmap stream and from what I heard just got blanked. Need to go back to scratch IMHO and start over, to at least give the basic functionality we have in TSC and MSTS/OR. At present steam locos in TSW don't even consume coal or water per se, the tender reserves never drop as you seem to have an infinite supply. And the "manual" firing bug where if you forget to open the firebox door for what turns out to be AI firing the scenario ends, is plain daft. After the farce that was the Flying Scotsman, I sincerely hope DTG aren't planning any more steam locos within the current implentation.
All the necessary controls are already in place on console controllers but many don’t do anything yet because the functionality isn’t currently in the game. I don’t know what’s taking so much time with full (and better) firing and steam physics behaviour being implemented as it has been quite some time since SoS came out. It’s as if nobody is actually working on it.
I'm another console user who loves steam and I want a real simulation. I don't think it's completely fair to split pc and console on this one because both sides have their casual players and their more serious ones. What I do think would be good would be a fluid difficulty setting where you can choose to just make them go, have a realistic driving experience and to have a separate setting for manual firing etc. In my opinion the issue with the game seems to be that seemingly a majority of players want modern one handled stock to get in and go and I know a lot of them wont even touch the 101 due to gears and lapped brakes. Let alone a proper steam simulation. And when you have Scotsman in the game I have a feeling DTG may have decided to go for accessible rather than realistic? Which is a massive shame but everyone can just get in and thrash it?
The biggest disappointment of steam for me is the timetables. Spirit of Steam was hyped up pre-launch, but whilst a lovely looking route, it seriously lacks variety and even simply driving on the route can be frustrating with the pairing of an automatic fireman and unachievable AI calculated timings. One of the reasons why I have avoided Peak Forest so far is because it doesn't appear to improve much on SoS, it is too similar to what SoS offers and lacks any sort of additional gameplay to differentiate it. If we were to see BR Green diesels added that may change.
As others have said already, I'm tired of hearing consoles = simplified. I'm exclusively a console player as far as TSW is concerned and I want realism above all. I'm concerned about the lack of communication as well. There are two points to consider here: Manual firing was supposed to come, but at some point, DTG simply stopped talking about it. While we don't know for sure, it's giving me the impression that it's either no longer being worked on or a very low-priority side gig. The simulation seems to become worse from iteration to iteration. The Jubilee and 8F - the first steam locos in TSW - feel somewhat alright (in their state as of writing this). lcyrrjp even found manual firing settings for the Jubilee that seem to give her pretty realistic characteristics. The next steam loco was the 4F, which feels like an absolute mess. She almost doesn't consume steam pressure at all and massively outperforms the 8F, a much more powerful loco. The latest addition was Scotsman with a cut-off that doesn't seem to work prototypically at all. It's time for DTG to address these concerns. This is not about asking for info on future content and the usual answer of 'if it's not on the roadmap...'. In my opinion, DTG should explain how steam went from a hyped-up feature with more realistic, manual firing coming soon™ to something that's apparently no longer receiving attention and that DTG won't talk about publically.
Core steam development really needs doing before any more steam related dlcs, hopefully as theirs only 4 steam trains released to date they have a better chance at getting that update to.
I'm actually considering making a new Spirit of Steam timetable with the PC editor. Also including the 4F from Peak Forest for shunting. Could you tell me what your issues are with the default timetable are? Is it just timings and lack of variety?
Fixing the missing AI sounds on SoS would be a good start, but they really need a lot more care and work done on them. Sadly they seem abandoned.. like many of DTG's promises.
The biggest issue for me is that the sectional running times are completely unrealistic - closer to something a Pendolino could achieve than a Jubilee. This is explained in more detail in the following thread: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/spirit-of-steam-scheduled-running-times.55795/ The other issue often mentioned is that the timetable is very thin, making big locations like Lime Street and Crewe feel too quiet.
That timetable is exactly what I needed. I've been building my TVL timetable off the actual timetable. I'll make this or peak forest my next project.
Similar to NTP, it has the core services but lacks off-map AI around Liverpool and Crewe to bring it to life. Of course the 4F would be a welcome bonus, but DTG seem very reluctant to add newer stock to older routes. If they must retest DLCs with every patch then I can understand why they might not do this. Regarding the editor, is there even a convenient way to share creations yet? Such as via creator's club or the steam workshop?
You need to just upload them to a filehost, or use the TSC community website where people put there mods.
Which is a workaround for PC, but for the full player base including consoles it will remain inaccessible, and they will likely have to continue using the original timetable. Hopefully creator's club can be improved to allow PC users to share their editor mods across all platforms.
No, it's the inherent nature of consoles. The user isn't allowed access to files or the OS; they're closed environments. Blame Microsoft and Sony (and Nintendo and Sega and Atari), not DTG.
Bethesda did a great job with mods on Fallout 4 and Skyrim for console, particularly Xbox (I’ve heard Sony is a bit stubborn..) I always hoped other games would follow suit, kinda hoping Rockstar may tag along with GTA VI, I always enjoyed seeing mods for GTA IV & V (unfortunately for me PC only ones)
I haven’t looked closely at the Peak Forest timetable as I only bought it recently, but the one train I did check - a St Pancras to Manchester Central semi-fast - had the same timings as in the real-life 1958 timetable, so I think the Peak Forest timetable provided may already be quite realistic in that respect.
I’m on Playstation so I can tell you all about Sony’s stubbornness - no new assets allowed whatsoever. That means no quests, no voice acting, no new weapons or armor (other than some repaints or frankensteined models), etc. Still, people managed to make some very enjoyable mods for that restrictive environment. Combining existing hair styles into new ones, weather overhauls, restoration of some cut assets, etc. My point is, even with Sony’s restrictions, mods added quite a bit of lovely stuff thanks to Bethesda’s stubbornness in seeing this through no matter the obstacles. Right there with you in hoping more games will follow suit, though Bethesda’s games are probably a bit of a special case since modding is such a prevelant part of the culture surrounding their games.
Despite the fact Farming Simulator has mods on console, and Cities Skylines 2 is getting them soon...
The Seasons mod for Farming Simulator doesn't come across as 'heavily restricted' to me, since it majorly changes the way the game is played.
Good points. My point was less about consoles being the restrictive element, but, you cannot deny that there are limitations that PC players would not encounter. The length, detail and timetable of routes could be so much better. I cannot see why the two versions cannot coincide, but that would require more work. I certainly appreciate that many console users do want the realism and simulation aspect. I think it's an odd thing to say, but perhaps now the TSW4 market isn't realism? Perhaps, it is that more arcade game style that DTG is trying to push? I do know one thing for sure though, that they will inevitably drive the real enthusiast away with this current business model. I appreciate they are trying, but we just want transparency and to be honest, a game that is at least on par with TS classic. I used to love building routes and from what I've seen this new editor is going much more difficult to operate. We all have time to learn though and I'm glad they're including one though. We all love the idea of being at home and being able to drive a locomotive from your chair, and DTG has provided that for many years now some add-ons and features have been fantastic. Some not so much. I pretty much exclusively drive steam locomotives, we all have our preferences. To have now spent at least £100 on TSW4, I'm sad to say that it hasn't really cut the mustard and I am left disappointed. What we are shown and get promised is not what we get and this really needs to change. The facts are these, DTG has no competition. They have the market. If there were competition, I think we'd see much better things. Keep well.
For console, farming sim mods are quite decent, Cities skylines were very limited to the point it was nothing like the PC. hopefully Cities Skylines 2 may change that.
Absolutely right, half of the beauty of a steam engine is the noise. How can they be silent? It's the 'release it, and we'll patch it later' attitude that doesn't go down well with me. Surely, if people are paying decent money for something, there should be a decent level of quality checking, but it's what people half expect from DTG now. Your DLCs remain to be some of the finest ever created for TS. I spent hours on the footplate of your creations and enjoyed it immensely. Looking forward to the 9F!
Consoles don't limit the length of the route. If it did, we wouldn't be kassel wurzburg for example. Time, budget, gameplay and other factors affect the length. With detail, there have been some routes where it has a lot of detail. So not entirely true that consoles limit the pc experience.
Specific mods may not be limited by the restrictions. But major restrictions on what mods can do do exist compared to Farming Simulator on PC.
I think it's reached the point where we'd all give out a cheer if we saw a 'release it, and we'll patch it later' attitude. What we currently have is a 'release it broken, take their money, then move on' attitude. Which has resulted in a 'my wallet is closed' attitude. And thank you Will, that is kind of you and very humbling I suppose I should be grateful that steam in TSC will remain strong all the time there is no replacement for it but I would also have liked to move forwards with a sim based on newer tech. I did buy TSW4 with a mind to try some content creation, but honestly with the state of kettles currently, what's the point?
Well said, you're spot on. A pleasure. Nice to see someone who does put that extra care and craft into their work! I hope you consider TSW4 again one day when the time is right.
I play on PC, but the point I was going for is that the benefits of the editor is rather restrictive if only a select portion of the player base can access them. If DTG are the only ones able to implement timetable changes then we're very unlikely to see any improvements. If the game was built with a sharing feature for editor creations then all routes could receive community created timetables (which judging by the 3rd party content on TSC is bound to be better than what we have currently).
My point was more along the lines of DTG catering to the arcade market than actually the consoles being the issue. I do think though that the potential detail on PC couldn't be on a console if the route was of constant detail and of a considerable length. I'm sure it can be as you say, but, I expect there would be performance issues.
