Stricter Requirements For Second & Third Parties Needed

Discussion in 'Train Sim World Discussion' started by londonmidland, Jun 12, 2022.

  1. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Below shows a comparison of West Cornwall Local, for both TS1 and TSW.

    The top image is from TS1, with the bottom being from TSW. Notice how much more accurate and detailed TS1’s version is.

    Rivet Games, who made the TSW version, just placed random and generic tree assets everywhere, to hide the blandness of the route. Even the houses on the slope are just generic and bland looking terrace houses. The beach itself looks tiny, with it being deserted of any holiday makers.

    This is just one example. The route itself has several inaccuracies and missing iconic features and landmarks.

    In my opinion both DTG and Rivet are both responsible for this. Rivet for not building the route up to an acceptable standard, as well as DTG for accepting this to be a finished product for TSW.

    The TSW version of a route already built in TS1 should NEVER be inferior to it, nor should it be acceptable.

    7EBE4E53-CA24-4422-A1C7-7CF678A50D67.jpeg
     
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  2. mattwild55

    mattwild55 Well-Known Member

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    Who produced the TSC version? Struggling to find anything on Google.
     
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  3. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I believe it was built by person(s) from the community under the name of 'High Speed Tracks'

    This is just another reason as to how and why we need community input when it comes to TSW development.
     
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  4. Mattty May

    Mattty May Well-Known Member

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    The difference is quite stark and shocking. Considering TSW 2 is supposed to be the more advanced version in terms of graphical prowess, it looks nasty compared to TS in those screenshots.
     
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  5. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Since it affects also dtg, i support a better quality control.
    Its good from dtg to give 3rd parties freedome in creation of their content. But when this freedome is used to release cash grabs like the 187 for example, then its damaging the reputation of the entire franchais.

    Sub standard content is a 2 edged sword. After the release of the 187 and the 38 tube stock, which came on the same day, i truely regreted the step to tsw.

    Im not playing tsc anymore, and just a wonderful freight ride on transpennine in the cl.40 could safe me from uninstalling tsw entirely. I have my trains at work too, so since i own every dlc, dtg can make the maths by them self for loosing customers by going lazy approaches.
     
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  6. euaningarfill

    euaningarfill Active Member

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    Why can't ts be better it still is and will be for years to come third party dlc shows that and even DTG routes.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2022
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  7. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    It’s a good comparison to make. Clearly the TSC version is superior. I also think it can be acceptable for a TSC version to be superior. There’s no reason why it shouldn’t be. In fact it is easier to make better content for TSC than it is for TSW if the tools are simpler and the people making it aren’t under the same commercial pressures that a company are.

    My dad used to make dolls houses. They were far superior to any dolls house you could buy in the shops and he spent hundreds of hours on each one. He then fully furnished them and gave them away to family or neighbours for free. It was the making of them that was important to him, as was adding as many authentic little details as he could. If it was his living or if he was paying someone to make them and they had to be sold for any set price that someone would pay then they would not have been nearly as good. They would have been the dolls house equivalent of a Rivet route, built to a price. It was a hobby and a passion and he was under no pressure to finish anything so he could put as much work into them as he liked and they were fantastic.

    If the quality of what they produce as their own DLC, as a small company that have much fewer resources than DTG themselves, isn’t good enough then it is perfectly acceptable for customers to just not buy their products. DTG can’t force them to run their company at a loss to ensure a certain quality standard. When Rivet are working as a second party and are being paid a set amount for their work, which will probably be more than they can ever generate from sales of their own DLC, then the quality is up to DTG and Rivet have shown that they can work very well when they do that. But that isn’t creating a whole package under their own direction, which hasn’t always turned out as good.

    We all know that it is more difficult and much more time consuming for anyone to develop for TSW than it is for TSC and that scenery that is really good also uses up far too much resources. Rivet as a company are also not aiming for totally accurate scenery most of the time and I’ve seen them explain in a dev blog for a TSC route that they just can’t spend the time necessary to achieve that level of authenticity. Those are legitimate considerations for where Rivet want to concentrate their efforts. I’m not sure it is up to anyone here or DTG to say that they should do it differently either. They can make their own commercial and artistic choices. I’m like everyone else in that I would like things to be better but I can’t help thinking that a lot of people have unrealistic expectations with what is actually possible for them to achieve.

    Jasper from Rivet said an interesting thing on another thread. He said if people don’t like the standard of Rivet’s releases then they can just not buy them or refund them if they have already paid. He does have a point.

    DTG can only ask that it is working as it should and give support where they can but they can’t force Rivet to make routes that everyone is going to like more. That means accuracy of rolling stock, scenery, timetables, scenarios, and anything else that isn’t a technical consideration. It’s up to Rivet to decide all that. Then the customer decides to buy or not. Or indeed to stick with playing the TSC equivalents instead.
     
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  8. VirginVøyager

    VirginVøyager Active Member

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    It’s shocking how bad TSW2’s version is, when you compare it to TSC’s one, and irl.

    And yet it could’ve probably been avoided had care been put in the route building and stock like the G6 loco by TSG was and Nahverkehr Dresden was as a route (which I believe was assisted by talented individuals). It just shows the lack of quality control happening with third parties, and there needs to be an improvement. I don’t really want any to be booted but there has to be more stricter control of the quality of DLCs released. Like how high quality the G6 is which I stand as one of the best third party addons in TSW so far.
     
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  9. euaningarfill

    euaningarfill Active Member

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    Jasper does not have a point because tsw is locked down people cant use the editor so fi they make a route that's it if it's crap no one else is going to make another version as it has been done already
    Maybe DTG should have researched the best engine and ot used one that is first person shooter and easier to use tools
     
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  10. dangerousdave

    dangerousdave Well-Known Member

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    Tsc is far better than tsw In my opinion. Apart from the fact there is a lot more content and a editor! If you play tsc in 4k with all the settings cranked up it's just as good if not better looking in the newer routes. Scenery is a lot more dense. Ground textures are far better. Even the rain looks better in tsc! I get the feeling that if it wasn't for the limitations of running tsw on consoles It could have been a lot better.
     
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  11. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Nobody has a divine right to be able to edit the game though, but that’s another way in which TSC is superior for a lot of people, and it doesn’t change the fact that you have the choice not to buy what is clearly a substandard product, which was what Jasper said (his personal opinion not that of Rivet). My point is that DTG don’t really have the right to dictate a third party’s artistic choices like the level of detail they put into scenery. Nobody is doing that for TSC creators. It’s up to the creator.
     
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  12. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    But they can prevent them from not releasing the DLC until it is in a much better shape. TSW is supossed to have Highly authentic recreations of routes and trains. Considering that some memebers of the community were willing to help which is what I told Jasper in that thread where he made that ridiculous statement in my opinion, there is no excuse to get something so fundamentally wrong when there is reference and players that could've provided help. They wouldn't have gotten it 100%. Even the route in TSC has it's inaccuracies. Nobody would expect that but to get it so fundamentally wrong is just ridiculous.

    He doesn't have a point because their is no public editor so nobody is gonna recreate a route that was crap since it was done already. Also they could improve the route which would generate sales, but they choose not too. I agree with the OP that DTG needs to crack down on it's third parties. They shouldn't be allowed to release any new content unless they go back and improve their older routes or their newer routes are in a good state. The DB BR 187 was a cash grab and shouldn't have been released. The 1938 stock is just terrible, The Luzern S-Bhan still has issues that haven't been fixed and west cornwall isn't authentic. When DTG says the community are skeptical of Rivet for example, that isn't good.

    If DTG will allow third parties to release crap content, then frankly it hurts their image in my opinion since it would show that they don't care about how good the product is and are complicit in the bad.quality of the product because they published it in the first place. You may act like DTG can't do anything but they could prevent third parties from releasing content unless it is a highly authentic recreation of the real world thing which is what these products are advertised to consumers.

    If you was a publisher for a newspaper company, would you allow for an article that had clear spelling issues and inaccurate reporting on a story to be published just because the writer doesn't know how to spell or tell a accurate story just because people wouldn't have to read it?

    Also refunds on xbox aren't easy if not impossible if you refunded many times. Refunds on Playstation is near on impossible in some instances. So again doesn't really have a point which I pointed out
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2022
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  13. euaningarfill

    euaningarfill Active Member

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    DTG do have the right as ot is being sold on steam and xbox ps stores
    Whereas ts it is not apart from a few thing from jt and others yes you do have a right not to buy but if a part of a route has been made no other person is going to make that part as it has been already made in what ever state
     
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  14. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Shame you didn't put in the real life view so people could compare...

    Just did a google steatmaps view and there's a 3d view taken above the beach and you can see both TSC and TSW have innacuracies, and probably comparable in those innacuracies scenery wise. Where the TSW version falls down is the buildings because Rivet didn't spend time creating 50 types of house and so on.

    The rocks and water in TSC looks much worse than TSW though
     
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  15. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    Not really. You can't get refunds on console. I would have refunded a lot of content for TSW if I wasn't on PS4.
    Again, not really. The lighting in Train Simulator is simply worse than TSW. Ground textures are less detailed and have no bump maps. The scenery on older TSW routes is much better than all bar the most demanding TS routes. And the console argument is a terrible argument - GTA5 runs on the PS5 and PS3, just with different settings.
     
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  16. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Whilst I couldnt get the same angle on googlemaps, the below images do show far more trees in the area then the TSC version depicts, it also shows a grassy area between the line and the beach. I wouldnt say either the images accurately depict the area, one with not enough greeny and the other too many. I also think the rivet versions depicts the housing far more accurately which are indeed bland IRL with far smaller chimneys. But then we are comparing a community built line with a commercial endeavour, and the rivet version should be head and shoulders above in terms of quality and I agree it isnt.

    upload_2022-6-12_17-19-1.png
    upload_2022-6-12_17-20-16.png
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2022
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  17. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I would have to disagree. TSC has far better lighting than TSW (IMHO). You can actually see where you are going without the blanket of black over the ground in front of you, or what looks like a partial eclipse even on a bright summer's day.

    Edit: Just to add, twilight and night lighting in TSC is also so much better, enough ambient light to make out where you are and headlights on trains where appropriate actually illuminate the track and structures ahead. Oh and not to mention the reverb off bridges, tunnels and cutting walls or rumble over steel bridges.

    To put things in perspective, I'm currently in the process of building up a bit of credit on my Steam account, in anticipation of the sale starting on 23rd June with a shortlist (actually quite a long list) of various items I want to get. Suffice to say none of them are for TSW, all are for TSC and most are products that have been produced by a quality third party provider.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2022
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  18. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    FPS engines are nearly useless for anything else. Google what happened to Bioware when EA forced them to move to Frostbite.
     
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  19. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

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    If you think St Ives looks bad, just take a look at the neighbouring Hayle Bay which looks more like a quarry. Somehow they made the elevation of the river Hayle next to Lelant station lower than the surrounding sea level...
     
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  20. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    What strikes me the most again is the messed up lighting in TSW2. Everything is either pitch black or bright like the sun during night/dawn/sunset. Its a shame. The most beautiful times of the day are basically not usable.

    But no i cant go back to TSC because the physics are just terrible 99% of the time as long as you dont pay $30 for a 3rd party loco for which you need $10 3rd party waggons and to play a scenario with that loco you need...
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2022
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  21. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    To be fair though, once you've bought or in the case of freeware downloaded once, you've got them for future use. I'm currently trying out the lovely Southampton to Weymouth route free off the SSS site. It does need more than a few downloads which I'm steadily working through, but is still quite playable - albeit even better once all the assets are in. However items like the UKTS clutter and housing packs only need to be installed and good to go for anything else. Storming through the New Forest with Clan Line on 10 Mark Ones beats anything TSW can offer, which ultimately is what it's all about.
     
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  22. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Other than the buildings on the top of the hill and the lack of people on the beach, the TSW version looks much better, so I don't see your point. More trees seem more accurate to real life, while the beach and trackside stuff looks much better. Could be improved with more accurate buildings in the distance, but I wouldn't call the TSW version worse in this case.
     
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  23. dangerousdave

    dangerousdave Well-Known Member

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    You mean gta v with the pc version having brilliant graphics and toned down version for consoles that had to be remasterd when the next generation consoles come out. So it looked as good as the pc version but still couldn't be played at 4k 60fps on the console?
     
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  24. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    Eh? The game is the same as it was in 2013. Remastered (as little as that applies to GTA 5 anyway) does not mean remade. The code is the same, the bugs are the same, the assets are the same, the game is the same. It runs on the PS3 and Xbox 360 at low settings in 720p at 30fps, but on PS5 and Xbox Series it runs at 4K with ray tracing (optionally at 60fps), actually looking better than the PC version in many ways. It is the definition of scalability and why the 'TSW ruined by console argument' is baseless and stupid. Plus, TSW still had problems when it was PC-only... It's almost like DTG aren't very good at making games.
     
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  25. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    I will beat this out till the day I die. Unreal Engine is not the problem here. If anything, it's the most malleable and capable engine available to date.

    Most of the issues with TSW are down to DTG design choices

    - Extremely weird tone-mapping and contrast (Artistic choice)
    - No editor (Corporate choice [There are other games using Unreal Engine with published editors e.g. Bus Simulator])
    - Increasing ommitance of AO in environments (Artistic)
    - Platforms look sterile (Artistic)
    - Lack of tree diversity (Artistic)
    - Lights always on even in daytime (Artistic)
     
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  26. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    Case in point... take a look at Hmmsim (Unreal Engine 4) and see just how great these environments can be. DTG need new artistic co-ordination because they are getting beat out by two guys in their flat.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  27. euaningarfill

    euaningarfill Active Member

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    Unreal engine is a first person shooter engine not a simulator with 100s of miles of track
     
  28. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    False. There are even tools now in Unreal Engine to encourage open world environments or even 1:1 planetary creations
     
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  29. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The PC/8th-gen version does have increased vegetation and traffic density, and greater variation in loaded vehicles. Of course, that's really just a matter of increasing a variable or two.
     
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  30. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I agree with all of the point listed here.

    Talking of tone mapper visuals, it seems like they've gone for a weird 'dramatic/movie style' look, which makes thing looks really off in terms of contrast and colours. Luckily there's an ini setting which disables this.

    Platforms almost always look too bare. I have no idea why they struggle to place down the appropriate platform furniture/clutter. On bigger stations especially, it makes them look so bare. London Victoria and London Paddington are two of many examples here.

    The trees almost look like a copy and paste all over the place. There's very little variety which spoils the immersion. Especially when they're all placed in a row with obvious repetitions.
     
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  31. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. As usual always on the money.

    Now if we're making this thread third-party centric (and reasons why I no longer trust Rivet)

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Like... really Rivet?

    Even Trainz (ruddy Trainz!?!?!!?) put more effort into this.

    [​IMG]
     
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  32. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    When Trainz does something better than TSW2, that says alot
     
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  33. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Dovetail keep saying though that there can't be an editor because of licensing issues. In bus simulator 21 (on console at least) all you can do is just customize your bus and make your own custom routes. There is a modkit but only for pc
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2022
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  34. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    True. But if the argument was that tools have to be accessible on all platforms... then that is a fools dream. PC is the only platform that can significantly author assets required for advanced experiences (3D modelling, texturing, compiling). Withholding that also inhibits potential console content too.


    If the argument was licensing... then how was Stillalive Studios, Asobo, Kuju/Rail Simulator (Defunct), Laminar Research, N3V Games, SCS Software, Polyphony, Playground games and many others... all able to provide both internal and/or external editors in their games alongside licensed partners, and still be able to provide?

    Dovetail manufactured this environment, and this is how you end up with 3-4 third-party studios 5 years into the game. A closed off ecosystem with no real accountability, quality-control, and no revenue streams that are not via DTG.
     
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  35. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    DTG are really shooting themselves in the foot by keeping TSW such a closed game, as well as 'hand picking' third party developers as to who has access to their tools. Why they aren't prioritising as to how the community can expand their game is anyone's guess.

    If we could fix routes ourselves, such as WCL, then there wouldn't be as near as the amount of complaints they currently get. However, seeing as we're stuck with what they ship out, it HAS to be right the first time round. I don't think they've (DTG and co.) ever fixed scenery apart from minor additions following constructive criticism from the community.
     
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  36. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    You raise a good point. But if DTG wanted to release an editor, they certainly would have done so by now in my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2022
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  37. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    Yup.

    For arguments sake, I think it's justified to say
    a) Some of the current third-parties are decent (either from what I've experienced or what others have relayed back). TSG and Ed's stuff (maybe he counts as second party? I dunno :P). Skyhook is at least trying. Rivet is just abysmal
    b) There are people within DTG such as Adam who care about improving the experience of past releases

    But you're still left with a rather vacant hole of "What-Ifs?" and "Wasted Community Resources". MSFS shows just the insane amount of growth a niche community can have in 1 year if you decide to treat a sim as platform first... and then profit off third-party commission.

    My biggest concern for DTG is that they have created the conditions for a competitor to swoop in. It may not be tomorrow, but considering TSC is considered a "legacy" simulator by the community and TSW is an "Inaccessible" simulator by developers. It's only a matter of time before someone figures out how to incentivize on this .
     
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  38. Calidore266

    Calidore266 Well-Known Member

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    As others have pointed out, not even close to true. Taking just a few seconds to fact-check your own post would have shown you that UE4 has been used to make games in pretty much every genre.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games#Unreal_Engine_4
     
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  39. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Main Spessart Bahn dock area.
     
  40. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    tbf DTG haven't made ANY statement about the editor in a long time that I've seen so the line of WHY is now community speculation
     
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  41. euaningarfill

    euaningarfill Active Member

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    You van make games with every genre but does not me it is any good and tsw on unreal isn't
     
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  42. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I love statements like these.

    "TSW on Unreal isn't a good game"...
    What, there is nothing about the game that's good?
    No redeeming features?
    Nothing that's even moderately a good thing, or that works as a game on a console or PC in the train sim genre?
    I'm pretty sure if you showed someone who is not totally into trains just about any of the trains in game and a picture of the real train they would say they're alike.
    I'm pretty sure if you stood someone in Victoria Station IRL and showed them a picture of Victoria station on SEHS they'd say "Yeah, pretty similar"

    Yes the game has problems and yes we all want those problems to be rectified but within it's genre there are things that TSW does well so to say Well it's just no good... is a bit disingenuous
     
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  43. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    Also, there should be much more vegetation in the distance on some routes. Just make that 2D so the performance impact is smaller and ,out can actually make it look like a forest? Not like a hill with 3 copy&past 3D trees with awful shadows?
     
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  44. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    How is this ini setting called?
    I can't stand these awful contrasts during sundown/dawn.
     
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  45. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    r.TonemapperFilm set it to 0
     
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  46. gazz292

    gazz292 Well-Known Member

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    this is one of the things i don't get, this game / simulator, you play a person who walks about the world, collects things, fixes things, and can get in a train and drive it.
    you are seeing the world from a humans eyes supposedly.

    Why all these filters and crap to make things look as if we are looking through a camera lens?

    that horrible thing they do where you get lens flares, chromatic aberration, motion blur, those tone mapping things etc, do people honestly like that kind of thing?
    as i see more post about how to turn it all off than asking how to turn them and other effects on.
     
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  47. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    Hi, so
    r.TonemapperFilm = 0

    ?
    Any downsides or bugs that come with this?
    Does it work in Dx12?
     
  48. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Yes. No space, however. So r.TonemapperFilm=0

    The only downside is that it makes the clouds in the sky look quite over exposed. However, colours are now much more accurate/natural looking. No changes to performance.
     
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  49. 59321747

    59321747 Well-Known Member

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    What's the use of complaining here? As soon as DTG comes out, there are always people buying it. If you don't buy the first version, then the DTG will change very quickly. They just make the Fearless DLC easier to roll out after you give the money you earn to DTG, maybe DTG is now optimizing and fixing the game.
     
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  50. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    But when they did they did say licensing issues. That's not speculation. It's their reason
     
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