A common issue with service mode timetables are the arbitrary arrival times that are usually set. When we look at a real world timetable, we don't ever see an expected arrival time for a train to be expressed in exact seconds (i.e. 05:43:26). Nobody expects the train to arrive at or before 5:43 and 26 seconds. It's ridiculous and breaks immersion. This condition usually results from the automated part of timetable simulation. What we instead want is an exact arrival time or expected arrival time, not just a computer-generated one. I'm polling the community to get your thoughts on the situation. The reason I'm doing this is because I'm looking into the timings on the Boston to Providence timetable and have found a couple ways of dealing with things. The issue I'm running into is that the time you can realistically arrive at the station is somewhere between minutes. Meaning if you're "supposed" to leave the station at 05:35, you might not realistically arrive until 05:34:45, do loading/unloading for a minute or so, and then depart. Your departure time is 05:35 per the timetable, yet you're departing at 05:35:45. It's still 05:35 at the end of the day, just 45 seconds into that minute. What I'm currently experimenting with in Boston is setting arrival/departure times at an exact minute and ignoring the seconds. What I want people to get from this is that you should arrive AFTER that specified arrival time, but within the next minute. Same for departure. So if your arrival time for the instruction is 05:34:00 and you arrive at 05:34:30, you're good. It was within that minute so you're on-time. You're not expected to arrive at exactly 05:34:00 or earlier. I don't want you to think you're late by arriving a matter of seconds beyond 05:34:00. Please comment if you want and respond to the poll. Choose multiple choices since your opinion might match multple options. Let me know if there's an additional poll option I haven't considered. Thanks, Brandon
Rounding to the minute is probably the best practice here, but I also think that being penalized for seconds late needs to go away. Unless you're minutes late I think as long as you're in that minute window you should be fine. I also think we should be given more set up time, for those of us that like to run with safety systems on. This is more detrimental to those of us playing on console that don't necessarily have the key functions PC players have. On Xbox, for example, I need to physically walk over, sit up, turn around etc. to access fuses, relays, and isolation switches which takes time.
Agreed. I'll add that option to the poll if I can because I wholeheartedly agree that Action Point deductions should be removed if within 60 seconds of the scheduled arrival time.
I don't mind AI generated timetables too much as long as the timings are achievable (some routes like Great Western Express and East Coastway are fine, but Spirit of Steam is hopeless in this regard). Overall I much rather have an authentic timetable if one can be implemented, using real-world timings for all stops and not just at the starting point. Slack built in to a timetable is often there for a reason and I much prefer having a longer wait at a station than feel constantly rushed to make up time between stops. Regarding the game displaying the timings to the exact second, I think if the core could be updated to automatically round those timings to the nearest 30 seconds for display to the player the immersion-breaking aspect would be mitigated, even if the AI services still operated on a per second basis. Some of the recent preservation crew updates to older routes which messed up various existing timetables with per-second timings felt like a step back in some ways.
Some timetables are completely nuts. MBTA Stoughton #900 for example: you have 65 seconds to prepare the cab and stop at the station to begin the service. If I were on PC, with a mouse and keyboard, maybe I could do it. But on XBox it's damn near impossible, because aiming with the controller it's not easy. And then whatever I am late from the first station only turns worse along the way, unless I overspeed. I'd tell you what they can do with these requirements, but it's not for the public forum.
I think arrival times should match the actual timetable, but the timetable should include the " padding " which I assume real life schedules incorporate. The BPE timetable is too strict, mostly impossible to adhere to, given the current signalling and safety regimen, which I know you've said is correct.
Thanks to Joethefish and others, some UK routes have this spot on, they have gone off a proper working timetable, with the timings at xx:00 and xx:30 as per reality. This should be the standard, the computer generated timings, are a work of fiction and completely break immersion in my opinion. Completely agreed. This is a question for Joethefish and possibly DTG Matt Can loading/unloading times be varied, so for examples quiet stations 10-15 loading time, medium 30 seconds and larger/busier 1/2 minutes, or is this far too much work!
If basing it on the real timetable isn't possible, the timings should always be rounded to the nearest minute or 30 seconds. I also think that the passenger loading times should be shorter than the time spent in the station, like on the BCC. This gives you a chance to catch up to the timetable if you are late.
I am "fine" with doing timings at 30 second intervals, but would rather have them rounded to the minute. I don't want to deal with seconds when it comes to a timetable, and I also don't want the players penalized for arriving within that defined minute.
They already are to some extent, though I'm not sure what the criteria are, not the ones you mention I would think. We know it's possible, you see it at the end of a service or when changing ends, for instance.
I think they should match the timetable where this is available, which in most cases I am sure it would be. If a working timetable is available then use that, certainly for any UK route set after 1994 they are easy and free to access, I don't know how it works with other countries. Otherwise passenger timetables I am sure in most cases accessible whether historic or current. Get rid of the timed to the second arrivals and departures it is unrealistic and breaks immersion and AI timings should not be used.
Set up time is a separate thing from the general timetable. Some routes have gone with some pretty short setup times, Boston being one of them. I find I can now do all my setup and leave on time but I have to know the loco pretty well. The second you stop to think about a button to hit, you will be late. SEHS had this problem originally too but they fixed it by making the setup time longer when they re-did the route for TSW3. So either you can hope they adjust it, or another option is just spawn on foot. I.E. if you know the train is meant to depart at 9am just spawn on foot at 8:55 at the station and take it over manually. Right there you have 5 minutes to setup.
Should I take from this that there should be a minimum of 2 minutes setup time? That's what I'm currently experimenting with for Boston.
2 minutes sounds about right, you also don't want to overdo it so that someone who knows the loco will have to wait for another 3-4 minutes after setting up doing nothing, and I think 2 min hits that sweetspot. Rather more than less than 2 minutes though, so I think using it as a minimum is fine.
Two minutes is a pretty good setup time overall. It is not too long for players who do setup quickly and don't turn on safety systems, for example. And if some players find it too short, in TSW they have the option to spawn on foot.
I started the service from Journey mode, in TSW2, where you don't get the completion unless started from Journey mode.
I think the in-game timetable should mimic the real timetable in every occasion. If the real life MBTA timetable only states arrival times in hours and minutes, then so should the in game timetable as well. And ideally those times should be the same in game as in real life as well. There actually are railways around the world that expect trains to be this precise. Japan comes to mind, for example. But obviously not most railways, especially not the ones we have in TSW.
Speaking as an italian driver, what really matter is the depart time that is set on the timetable. Than we get the expected arrival time based on test of the route + 5%/10% for bad situations like snow. So if A to B takes 10 minutes, service time travel is set to 11 minutes + fixed time at stop based on station. 1 minute/local regional. 2 minute normal station. 4/5 minute great station/major hub. 10 minutes for terminal/deadend/change cab station. With tipically an estimated time of passenger load of 30seconds for local, 1 minute for normal, 2/3 minutes for great. Back in topic,as we have the depart time yet from real life, we can go in a back way. Exemple depart time 08.30. - 2 minutes for stop at X station so expected arrival is 08.28.00 without seconds. Just to be clear again, our load time is always LOWER than station stop time, so if arrive (based on the last exeple) at 08.28.24 the load time (the green circle on the game) will be complete at 08.29.24 with depart set at 08.30.00 It's easy to understand that if you running in late, over the depart time, you just stop for the load time + a bit to be sure that everyone are on board or not.
2 minute setup time is ideal (given the rear end of your train is properly set and you don't have to run there to fix it). As for the arrival times - rounding up to a whole minute. I would say always the minute after (5:35:26->5:36:00), but that might have a serious knock-on effect for 10+ stop routes. So I actually like the combination of rounding up to the closest and 1-2 minutes without penalty.
Timetable mode and having a proper timetable is one of the biggest selling points of TSW which is why it’s head and shoulders above TSC in this category, it’s properly jump in and go. Unlike TSC where I can spend ages creating a scenario with a real player and AI timings taken from the real working timetable! I still enjoy that but it’s time consuming!
I know the question here is not about it, but it reminded me of something I encountered and forgot to ask: In most cases, stopping short of the marker at a station means having one or two APs deducted from the 500. However, there are a few stations where stopping short means I had to release the brakes and move forward the couple of meters I was short by. What's up with those?! I can in particular remember this happening on the stations of the Meissen branch of DRA. Is this a bug or a feature?
This could most likely be tied to what the dispatcher can and can't do. But like others said, we know they generate these hours using AI trains. It make no sense to be so strict both time wise and points/rewards wise and simply ignore to award points/rewards to players that use the safety systems for example. The situation you described from DRA is a bug. They corrected some of them I believe but some still exist and on other maps too.
The problem there, though, is less with the timetable than with the game as so often spawning you into the cab without nearly enough setup time. I would make it a law that you pop in a minimum 2 minutes before service start, no exceptions (in this case, that "start time" would not mean arrival at the platform, but the current spawn-in time.)
Fair point- certain trains like the Class 101, that require setup in the rear cab also, should get a longer time.
Timings should match the real-life Working Timetable (or equivalent in other countries). If that means the timings are hard to meet, fine - likewise if it means they're loose and you end up waiting around at some stations for a bit, there's usually an operational reason for this so also fine. If the WTT only specifies a departure time, then this is fine for me as well, although it does make it a bit harder to track if you're on time as the HUD only shows the next instruction (stop at station) and presumably wouldn't show the departure time. I don't know what a WTT looks like in the US but in the UK I don't think they're any more specific than nearest 30 secs and most of those that I've seen are by minute. For me this enhances immersion as it means that the trains are in approximately the right place at the right time as they would be in real life. I'm not bothered one way or the other about Action Points (I never track them) but it makes sense that arrival within 1 minute is fine and as you say accounts for the potential arrival in the minute of the schedule. EDIT: 2 minute setup time is good and should be standard for all services.
I’d like to see realistic arrival/departure times and for timings to be rounded up to the nearest minute. I’m a bus driver and whilst our running boards can be quite tight, they are always to the minute and never the second (which has always been a ridiculous thing with TSW). I’d also like to see the timer for loading to be set at like 5 or 10 seconds. We, as the driver, can then choose how much longer we remain at the platform (if running late) in order to recover some time if necessary. If we leave early, we should be penalised for doing so. We shouldn’t be penalised for running late - unless we are deliberately running significantly late. On the buses, they would rather us be late and safe than running to time (whilst rushing) or running early. We have several timing points on our routes which we mustn’t pass before a specific time. If we do so regularly, we can get into trouble.
Yes. Absolutely. A minimum of 2-minutes should be enough and it should allow us to do our initial boarding before we are due to leave the platform.
Brandon, this is great. Using the Amtrak and MBTA timetables to come up with the in game one would be a great help. I also agree with the 2 minute setup time for services. The only issue that I see here is that the sim subtracts APs for every second you are over the set arrival time, don't know how that can be corrected.
I really like the 2min-setup. For me, that is enough, even to set safety systems and rear-cab, if necessary. For now, the game only penalizes you, if you are more than 30s late to the arrival time set in game. Personally, I find that OK. And for the arrival and departure time, I prefer the real life times, even if that means sometimes waiting 2-5min in a station, as that happens irl too. If it is more than that, it might be an idea, to think about splitting the service in 2 parts imho. And the stopping points on some stations on the Meissen branch on DRA, that is necessary due to some issues with AI-trains, iirc. A pity, that never was fixed.
Thanks, Sharon. That's what I'm experimenting with. It seems that rounding up to the nearest minute may be the solution but I'm not sure that'll make the timetable authentic. It's a difficult balance.
Even if the WTT itself only specifies a departure time, I'd presume most rail systems have policies on dwell time.
As has been said I think that the working timetable should always be followed as there are cases in real life where I will have to arrive and/or depart at the half minute rather than the minute itself. If for whatever reason a WTT can't be sourced then the times should be rounded up to the nearest half minute and not be left with, for example 10hrs18mins and 49secs (this would become 10hrs 19mins). Also just to echo what others have said 2 minute set up time minimum is essential to be prepared to drive the service on time. I don't know what it is like in other countries but this is an important factor in keeping Immersion on British routes.
One thing that can be separated in the timetables in TSW is the dwell time and the passenger loading time. This enables time to be made up if running late. This should be done on all timetables. Timings should be shown at whole minutes or half minutes only. There should be plenty of time to arrive at each station on time by driving normally and not having to race. Example Arrival time - 10:20:30 Passenger loading time 45 seconds Departure - 10:21:30 The dwell time is one minute but the passenger loading timer is only 45 seconds. This is implemented in Joe’s timetables in TSW. Under normal circumstances it should be easily possible to arrive at the station by the arrival time. If it isn’t, then it means either the timetable times are wrong or the train isn’t able to go fast enough. If the timetable is to be set up that you are to depart after the specified time but within one minute then being at the end of that minute should not deduct any points from the maximum.
Action Point penalties should be removed if you arrive within 60 seconds of the instruction. This should be dependent on the service/route/country IMO A rapid transit line such as Bakerloo Id reduce to 15 seconds before penalties A commuter service such as London Brighton 60 seconds feels about right A long distance service such as Kassel Wurzburg maybe 3 minutes If we ever got a proper Amtrak long distance service maybe even 10 minutes. Not a question asked, but whilst we are on the subject I'd like to see more freight services timetabled for arrival and departures as well (especially on UK & German routes) when a slow moving freight train would severely impact passenger services.
Personally: 2 minute setup Round to nearest minute Remove AP penalty for <1 min late would be perfect!! Glad to hear this is being worked on. Btw the updated Boston is great- it's busy, has variety and if the timings can be fixed that would be even better!
My thoughts on times for Routes; No less than 2 minute start up time, all trains are different some can take a minute, others sometimes feel like the 2 minutes is a rush. For any services what appear like (arrival time 14:32:52) round up the seconds, it seems not realistic and proves only to show which routes are running on generally quite bad timetable set up (the non real ones) attribute the arrival times to include safety systems, whilst the track speed could be 60 the train may only be permitted for 15 for quite some time, these types of things need to be taken into account. Not sure on how to deal with weather affects on timing though…, the Acela for example seems to have no struggles in perfect weather but anything different and it’s quite a nightmare personally scrap all timings for freight, Im really not a fan on that, I’ve avoided all those, they feel like you need to rush and provide less difference between passenger and freight services
This is a big thing as well - being able to catch up. If the train is late IRL, it won't stick around for long, just board and go. I first noticed this back with Dresden-Chemnitz and it was a really welcome improvement.
When I started my TSW career I was quite annoyed at having any timetable at all. Just the feel of the clock ticking got me feeling rushed. I still remember the early 'bug' where MSB didn't have any timings. Felt so relaxed. It's still one of the nice things for freight runs. However, over the years, I've simply learned to ignore the clock as best as I can. Some timetables are very relaxed, sometimes forcing me to wait several minutes at a station. Which may be realistic, but it's not an interesting piece of gameplay. Other timetables are near impossible, which can be frustrating but I'll just make the best of it. Wouldn't mind the clock being removed completely, and be able to run my passenger runs like I do freight runs; without any deadline, at your own pace, whether you're too slow or too fast.
Should match the timetable, but no penalty for arriving earlier. Where possible, published public or working times should be used providing train performance and physics matches the real thing. Schedules should also include any recovery and pathing allowances that would be in the real deal.
In my personal opinion, a few minutes set up time depending on the service should be given. When we take over, the trains usually aren't set up even if it's just a driver change. Being able to set lights, destinations etc would be welcomed. When I play older content like Tees Valley, I have to rush out the station with no time to set the destination boards, tail lights and other manually set options. Otherwise I'm a fan of an authentic timetable that doesn't include rolling stock or trains not available at that time, so the timetable should be as close to real life as possible with it's timings too. Obviously if something subs in or is choosen to replace a loco not in the game yet, that gets difficult. Maybe the service should be marked with a red ! that warns the player that with the selected loco the service might not be completable on time ? Also, I would cut the seconds or minutes completely given the country and the timetable. When I look at the departure times in a german train station, it's only minutes, no seconds, for example. And lastly, making the passenger boarding times shorter would be perfect for catching up when running late as perviously mentioned. I'd even go a step further and remove the passenger boarding time completely, making the game only tell you to open the doors and once they are open, you get told to wait like this until you have to depart. So that if you're late, you can pretty much go again. (Something you wouldn't do in real life but I think if you're late it's up to the driver and the signal ahead when you can leave?)
After work today I tried a different approach for arrival and departure times. Refer to the attached photos as needed. The test case I've been doing is Acela Express #2151. So per the Amtrak timetable from March 2019 (which is what the route is based off of), the departure times are as follows: The red circled timings are DEPARTURE times. Meaning the train is expected to depart the station within that minute (i.e. between 05:35:00 and 05:35:59 for Providence). What i've been playing around with for this particular service is setting the arrival and departure times to be the same. Seems stupid at first, but just stick with me and try to follow. Let's take Route 128 for instance. In my last run, I arrived at 5:13:30. Since the arrival time is 5:14:00, you get the full points provided you stop at the right location. For that stop instruction, you're required to wait 1 minute for boarding. By having the departure time also at 5:14:00, you get to leave at 5:14:30 since that's 1 minute after you arrived. If I had instead set the departure time to 5:15:00, you'd instead have to wait 1 minute and 30 seconds before being allowed to leave the station. Here are some other screenshots of the timings from my last run. Let me know how you feel about this approach. I'm trying to prevent needlessly sitting at at platform just because the departure time is set later than it probably should be.
It's such a hard balance tbh, since everyone plays the game differently. I personally don't care at all about points (i turn off that part of the HUD) or medals, and kinda grade myself based on the stats at the end, but those things are really important to others. For me, personally, I think the passenger loading times are generally too short- i like to use the free cam to look at the station details and such and lots of times it seems like there's only a few seconds left once i open the doors but i feel pressured to depart right away since i always have a nagging feeling that if i don't it will mess up the dispatcher- that probably is just an illusion but still... Anyway that probably doesn't help but figured i'd share my perspective
my feedback would be to not make the schedule too difficult to stick to, theirs a risk that tighter schedules mean more off schedule running and continued lateness to any slight imperfections of driving or weather, and to take into account safety systems. I’ve personally been on services in the U.K. what stop for about 10 seconds and others for several minutes. not sure how helpful this is but I would suggest going for times what are accurate to the services, like how long would MBA actually wait their, do Amtrak arrive earlier usually than what’s stated and wait for timetable to catch up after several minute layover
My opinion is with a simulator such as TSW, it should simulate the real world and therefore real timings I think! In the real world, train services follow a timetable so this should be imitated in TSW as well!
I actually really like this approach. I always try to arrive a minute early. This gives 30 secs boarding time, 15 secs door closing, and departing 10 secs to the minute. That way I'm on time. However i do find it annoying when you have to wait at station for 3 minutes when theres no need. Thank you for taking your free time to experiment btw
Having the arrival time and departure time set the same (the departure time in reality) isn’t a solution as a player will be trying to arrive for the departure time and then will be late when actually departing after the loading sequence. The times need to be different and the departure time set to the time in the real timetable. Do you have working timetables or is everything based off the published passenger timetable? The departure time has to be correct whatever happens and surely for every station stop a driver will know that there will be an earlier time to arrive at. I’m not sure they are arbitrary. There will be an expected time for a driver to arrive related to the departure time. Whatever happens, the departure time has to be realistic to a real service and set as a sensible time without odd seconds. If there isn’t a published arrival time then an educated guess can be made as to what it would be and then as long as the game’s passenger loading timer is set shorter than the time between the two it should all work out fine for points as well as running fairly realistically. If a player arrives early at a station they are always going to have to wait until the departure time. If a player arrives late at a station for any reason then that means they are late and they need to deal with it.
I would add after considering this more, the best way seems to be to find the official times for arrival that drivers would know, followed by how long they are to remain (there should always be enough time in between the departure and arrival for this) for the passenger boarding timings (this in U.K. at least varies by station) and then the official departure timings. some can be quite long layovers, this is realistic though and anything different breaks that realism, if a person is really keen not to stay they can set off early (I do this several times, usually helps keep to schedule) they should probably lose action points for this as it’s against standard, therefore wrong. AP should be awarded for keeping up realism. I do agree completely with stujoy, creating the same timings creates an impression of lateness and rather unfair to players and confusing to new players, and doesn’t seem realistic, arrival timings may be in seconds, though I wouldn’t imagine single digits, but departure is never seen as such on PIS/Passenger Timetables (from what I’ve seen) edit: same departure/arrival times also seem to suggest that you shouldn’t even board passengers as it’s time to go not stay. My additional feedback on the poll. Arrival times should be looser than the actual timetable. Yes, generally this should be the case. Assuming the timetable is working as expected departure not expected due times, the train should arrive before in order to board passengers and depart on time. Arrival times should match the timetable, regardless of when you actually arrive. Seen as Arrival times won’t be seen on a timetable when taken into account if the timetable is departing times, they shouldn’t match. Arrival times should be rounded to the minute, not allowing for random seconds to be included. whilst Arrival times may be e.g. 14:12:30 and Departure 14:15:00, to maintain this realism they shouldn’t be rounded. Though any service that has something like 14:12:31 Should be changed as this surely wouldn’t be found anywhere… Arrival times should be abolished. Only scheduled departure times should matter. if real arrival times can be found add them in, if this info can’t be found it won’t be realistic therefore just have departure times Action Point penalties should be removed if you arrive within 60 seconds of the instruction. No reason to have this overly sensitive so I approve, likewise it would be nice to have speed limits of e.g. 75mph be overspeed at 76.0 rather than 75.6
This is a lovely approach, though I still think the loading time itself should be shorter than the expected time you have to spend at the station, so you can slightly catch up when you have delays.
