The Big Problem With Ap Trains...

...is that once you’ve ‘driven’ them and become accustomed to the quality, you never want to drive any other train again!

[ Just practicing my click bait skills . ]

 

I find it frustrating the fact that Steam will often sell a "slimmed down version" of an AP train (the 315 for example) then you need the "full" version when it comes to needing it for something else so you effectively end up buying the same thing twice...!!!

Eric

 

I will ignore your posts if this is anything to go by.

 

That is true in my case ,but not everyone can afford their prices. The same can apply to other 3rd party devs who make quality dlc.

Apples and oranges.
Dovetail have a different business model and have to walk a fine line between quality, quantity and price. Their routes are loss leaders at £25 a pop compared with their rolling stock at about half that. That's where they make their margin, on the rolling stock, after all trains need a route to run on.
For us consumers it's the same as in any purchasing decision, your house, car or food. Audi or Ford, Tesco or Waitrose. You pays your money and...

 

As you know, the Steam version is for use in Workshop scenarios. As I make my own scenarios I always buy the AP version, so many more liveries for the buck.

 

Fair points, Cat!

 

I think AP's products don't justify the acclaim they have. Yes, they are good, but they have deficiencies too. All their wagon sound packs are in my view too quiet. Their loco sound packs loose the in-cab track joint sounds if you go outside and then return. They know about it and how to fix it, which they've done in more recent expansion packs, but they do don't go back and fix the back catalogue. I'm also peeved that they removed the static underbody shadows on the Mk1 coaches because of a problem (now understood and fixable), but haven't restored them.

And don't get me started on their poor installers and the inability to selectively apply weather and track upgrades or to remove their products without a full re-install.

So their products are good, but not that good. I consider 3D-Zug and Virtual Railroads products to be better, unfortunately just for German subjects, though a small number can be used in niche UK settings.

 

I agree - they're good but IMO a bit overrated. I have a feeling they're going to start charging £30 for loco packs, if the 411 is anything to go by - simply too much for what it is, which is a loco pack. I bought the Class 156 on a sale and I'll be honest I'd be a bit disheartened if I'd spent £25 on it. It's good but I have a few issues with it - the Northern Spirit livery (the reason I bought it I'll be honest) is completely wrong as far as the interior's concerned, no passengers in the model makes it feel dead, and I question their choices of destinations - especially on the Provincial livery.

[this bit was written before I realised this thread is about trains, and not their track enhancement pack]
I'll be honest, I bought and installed the AP track and I really dislike it. I think it's the faux-3D effect, which works well on the track that comes with Weardale and (inexplicably) Fife Circle, yet it doesn't on the AP track for me.

 

The lack of passengers bugs me to.

 

I like this AP Mk1 Stock

 

Is that the new mk1 coach pack?

 

Yes, with a bit of modification

 

Please tell me they didn't put the old kuju passenger models in and that was you. I mean it's better than empty coaches but still.

 

Who is "they"?
These are my coaches which I modified by using the passengers from the DT Coaches that have the same name

Unless you create the passengers from scratch you have to use another coach that has passengers
It was basically to see if it worked and I might update the coaches if I find something better

 

AP trains are nice, but the near hero worship their products get often results in any non-workshop scenarios requiring massive amounts of AP products limiting their use to the niche that spent a butt-load to buy the full AP catalog. This is especially problematic for freeware/subcriptionware routes where scenarios are far more limited in availability and still often require large amounts of AP.

Don't get me wrong, I own probably 10 AP products and appreciate them, but I think that their existence and the freeware reliance on them *cough*alantomsonsim*cough* makes this hobby less accessible.

 

Given the quality of the models and textures for passengers, I prefer that the cars be empty. I was using the DTG Empire Builder P42DC yesterday switched to the passenger view and was stuck sitting next to Frankenstein's monster...it was...jarring.

 

yeah, I like to use freeware reskins if I can on scenarios I intend to publish (though will use an enhancement pack if I need to), but I do feel a bit pressured to put a lot of AP stuff in just because. I think it's because their packs come with a shed load of liveries.

 

I can totally see why it might feel like there is pressure from the "hardcore" TS community to include AP everything to make the scenarios seem more premium or serious, or whatever...prestigious maybe. I really appreciate what Just Train does for their scenarios with their routes, which is that they usually require some payware, including AP stuff at times, but they often include alternative scenarios that use just stock and freeware assets for folks that don't have a lot of other payware. I understand Just Trains is payware so they have a financial incentive to make sure their products are more accessible to the community, but it's still a nice touch regardless.

 

It would be very convenient if AP could update their products to feature uninstallers and provide an option to download scenarios separately (like with the realistic branding patches and extra stock packs). It would save the need for a complete reinstall of the base game to remove unwanted files. I myself have had problems with AP files messing with the default content and the only way to solve it is to reinstall everything, rather than running quick uninstaller for that particular item to remove all of its related files.

 

I couldn't seem to replicate that. I tried with a class 20 with AP sound pack, then a 47 with AP sound pack. There was no difference at all with the 20, and although the joint sounds seemed to be quieter after switching to external view on the 47, I couldn't be certain it just wasn't co-incidental... they are definitely still there though.

 

It's erratic. But I don't find it hard to loose them on the 37, 47 and 50 sound packs. A couple of jumps out of the cab and they are invariably gone.

 

The same thing happened to me with the sound packages, when you leave the cabin and come back the joint truck sound disappears, it is very frustrating since sounds are important to me.
In fact, I remember writing to the AP technical service at that time and they told me that this happened in their old packs and that they had no intention of fixing it (they did not tell me what specific packages they were, because knowing it I would think twice before buy a product, and I did not receive a reply about it).
I replied that there should at least be a product problem information message for a new buyer to know before they get it, because they themselves know about the problem and do not mention it on their products.

 

re: passengers. I'd rather have none than the awful ones we do have. The same with passengers on platforms. The terrible passenger animations, and the fact that you can usually have 3 or people who appear to be identically dressed triplets just ruins it for me. I'd rather they were just sat there reading a paper, or looking at a phone... so long as you don't get phone users on period scenarios. I also hate the fact taht they just appear and disappear.

 

There isn't a 37 or 50 sound pack. There is a 47 sound pack, but I can't get it to do it... I've tried. Same with the 20 and the Deltic sound packs, or the 390 sound pack... or the 92 sound pack. I can't replicate this fault here. It can't be a general fault. It must only manifest itself under certain conditions... either hardware or software. Maybe it's a clash between it and other installed assets?

 

I have in the past also commented on the overuse of AP products. I mean, just use regular DTG AI in scenarios to make them more accessible, and make only the driver train and any other AI from the same pack use the AP models. That makes the scenario way more accessible. Two versions of a scenario is not a bad thing to have, so those with the collections can drive the realistic models they crave.

Example: a scenario needs the 156, 158, and 170 AP packs. The driver train is a Class 158. It's safe to assume that any 158s on the scenario can come from the AP pack because the driver train is literally from that pack, and it gives something to do with that specific pack. However, there is no need to have the 156 and 170 packs represented from the playability standpoint. Anyone missing the 158 pack can be expected to swap the models out with the existing 158s in the game (including Arriva if you want to use the DMU pack model that's no longer available), but having separate versions that swap out the 156 and 170 for default DTG assets is not a criminal idea. The amount of time to create a second version of the scenario is minimal. Just make it more accessible. That's all a lot of newer players ask for. Those wanting to swap driver trains can learn how to use Ts-Tools.

So I agree with the OP, obviously, in some respects. But at the same time, those who have them would not get their realism. Let's bridge the gap and meet both needs. Just Trains certainly has tried to do this in the past. Not sure why no one else bothers. Especially in examples like that Cambridge route with 0 playable scenarios without AP products.

 

There were 37 and 50 sound packs, but they were recently withdrawn when AP released the standalone locos.

This is a quote from a support email from AP to me when I raised the same problem with the 101/117/121 sound pack;

"Unfortunately this is a limitation of the simulator in our older packs. We set the sounds up correctly but the simulator is unreliable in how it handles this method. We have since found how to overcome this but this sound pack doesn’t feature this." Emphasis mine.​

That was in late 2017, so there has been plenty of opportunity to update the packs, but for whatever reason they have chosen not to.

 

Maybe they've fixed the issue in packs still available then, but not the ones that have since been withdrawn, as I can't replicate this fault here.

 

Unless you're the one who's making them, then of course If it's such an easy thing to do, then why not do it yourself? Just swap out any stock that you don't have for something you do have.

I agree with your point that AI traffic doesn't really need to be AP stuff, or most of it anyway. If a AI train is sat next to you in a station, then sure, you want it to look every bit as good and accurate as your own train, but if it's something flying past at 100mph, then I suppose it doesn't really matter... unless sound is an issue. There's nothing worse than a crap sounding train going past to ruin the scenario.

It can be annoying if a scenario contains stuff you don't have, yes, but I'd still rather the community keeps standards high, instead of making everything use crap Kuju models for compatibility.

 

What happened and do you know which AP files did this?

 

I think with the 20, it sounds like the ‘second part’ of the track sound has gone when you return to the cab?

Which 47 is that? Looks good.

 

Agree with this, wish there was a way to switch them off: the quality compared to trains and stations is usually too stark.

And as you say, I’ve seen several stations with two of three of the same person in the same area, just looks ridiculous.

 

I’ve only been using TS for a month, but I have to say, when you watch a video of a good scenario, or read about it, then you look at the list of maybe a dozen plus requirements, it’s a bit of a disappointment.

Perhaps if you’ve been playing TS for years, you might have most if not all, but it excludes newcomers who have no idea if they can run without all these requirements or how to ‘swap them out’.

You don’t want to fork out more money on something peripheral just to make a scenario work.

 

You don't have to reinstall the base game to remove unwanted files.
If you had installed a Stand Alone pack - like the AP Class 50 which is not reliant on anything else you just Delete it.

A sound pack you can look inside the folder as you usually find two versions of the the train that has the Sound Pack applied.
One of the versions will have an AP Suffix to it's name
Worse case Scenario if you deleted something you can simply reacquire thru the Steam Client.

Not sure why you would want to download the scenarios again - Deleting anything from the Assets folder, where the trains are, does not affect anything in the Content folder where the routes and Scenarios are.
The Scenarios would not work because you deleted the train the Scenario was for.

Peter

 

From my experience, especially with older AP packs, the installers tend to throw unwanted files all over the place and can sometimes affect default routes and locos which I'd rather keep 'clean'. For instance, the AP Class 142 installs a random repaint for a Class 37 (either from Settle to Carlisle or Edinburgh to Glasgow) even without the extra stock pack, as well as applying sounds to the Riviera line class 143 but not others without a choice. The old Desiro sound pack partly installs repaints for the Class 360 and without installing the extra stock pack also (and more unwanted repaints) the repaint doesn't work properly. The old Electrostar sound pack breaks some of the formations on the Chatham Main Line route making them undriveable (Class 375/3 from the DMSO is one). Along with other similar issues I can't describe without reinstalling them.

I know it seems fussy but for the sake of keeping the files tidy it would be far more convenient if you could just run an uninstaller to remove all associated files rather than digging through the assets and contents folder deleting each file individually, only to find the thing you were trying to clean up still exists when you load up the sim. Hence why a complete reinstall is the only way to guarantee removing the files.

 

I do like their products, in the early days of Rail SImulator they were a godsend as the default HST/166/47 on the Paddington to Oxford route sounded awful! DTG have come a long way with sounds and features but I think AP are generally that little bit better. I also tend to get the SSS sound packs for steam locomotives for the same reason.

I have noticed though that the class 421/423 soundpack seems to lack any track joint sounds, not sure if anyone else has noticed that?

 

Without going in and deleting the repaints, not sure what you can do, however if you want to uninstall a sound pack, just reinstall the DLC through steam (ie if you DO want your Riviera 143 to sound like a hairdryer from the 70s (not entirely convinced that isn't how they got those sounds) then reinstall Riviera line). There's absolutely no need to reinstall the whole game, plus reinstalling a DLC shouldn't effect any scenarios you've downloaded for the route.

 

I have absolutely no idea where it came from now, sorry. I seem to have a massive amount of class 47 variants collected over time. It almost certainly came from the usual suspects though: DPS, ATS Vulcan et al. Sorry.

 

It might be the one from West Somerset? That's of course assuming it's not a 3rd party one.

 

Reinstalling DLCs individually does revert them back to their original state, however it still leaves the 3rd party files in the same place. I usually do a clean install once a year just to get rid of all the garbage that has accumulated in the railworks folder, not just from AP products but from other 3rd party sites as well. I don't like having hoards of unwanted mods installed when I would never use them. Why I'm suggesting AP provide separate downloaders for scenarios and having uninstallers to remove something should you lose interest in it or if it gets superseded by a new release.

The Class 143 is just annoying because the sounds are different depending on whether the AP 142 is installed and what DLC it is from. I rarely drive it anyway, so it's not that important. TS can be so inconsistent and really annoying if you're a bit of a perfectionist.

 

Probably a VT 1st Gen pack reskin that you can't get anymore!!!

Eric

 

It's not the 47 from the VT pack - that had a completely different cab (which for some reason people didn't pick up on, despite the fact the difference is like the difference between a book and a DVD)

plus, the VT 1st gen 47 didn't have a headcode box they were plated over in the 70s

 

Experimented with the AP sound packs I have for the 20, 47, 52 and 55. Seems generally ok with me, as far as I can tell, it’s possible, maybe with the 52/55, that some is lost: it you think of the stereotypical ‘clicketty clack’ of the train, returning to the cab you seem to lose the ‘clack’ part to some degree. But I wouldn’t have noticed it really. I tried to follow the same piece of rural track at similar speeds, to reduce the variables.

 

No.. it's for the Kuju 47.

 

Yes... it must be, as it's North Star. I forget I have that route... I never play it. I only got it as an asset requirement for other stuff. Driving a spoon at 25mph doesn't really float my boat.

 

That hairdryer will get you where you need to go on time and on schedule.

That's right, so muck better to drive a SPORK!

 

I am a big fan of AP stuff and the Class 411 release has me once again wondering why I’m using TSW rather than TS.

Even if people have some issues with AP they still blow DTG away. What DTG release comes anywhere near the 411 in terms of features?

Yes, AP isn’t cheap (relatively) but one wonders at the business decisions that go on in DTG Towers. They can see that people will buy AP packs for improved sound and features and pay significantly more for better. Yet they still churn out little better than adequate. Wherry lines puts the majority of DTG lines to shame as well.

DTG did play with the concept of the ‘TS Pro’ idea for a while. What happened to that?

 

I'm not here to defend DTG as much as explain what I think their position may be. Literally all AP does are enhancement packs and new trains, and they take quite a long time between releases. For such a small group, that's fine. However DTG has a lot more mouths to feed which IMO probably necessitates a faster cadence to new product releases to keep cash flow up. That means that even with a larger team, they're working on multiple things at a time and it doesn't make business sense to hire more people or spend more time on each release. So essentially, from a business perspective, if they were to release AP quality stock and thus take longer or pay more people to do it, would they sell more of the units to make up for the increased build cost? I'm sure they've done the math and the answer is no. I mean if you look at their release cadence, it's about one route or loco per month, at the least. Sometimes more. Think of DTG as Bud Light and AP as a small batch local craft brewery.

As for the TS Pro line, it definitely still exists. There was a Canadian loco released under the TS Pro label just a couple of months ago, though it was developed by a partner and not DTG themselves.

 

TSW and [edit by Protagonist - watch the language] that's where the cash is.

 

While that may be true, I don't see how that impacts the quality of their TS content, which is largely unchanged from before the TSW days. If anything, it has perhaps gotten better thanks to 64 bit.

 

It's the only reason I can imagine why they'd sit back and let someone else create stuff that sells like hot cakes for their own platform.