The Class 150 Sounds…

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by londonmidland, Oct 21, 2021.

  1. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Active Member

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    I think the one thing that annoys me is that with PC, a mod will be easily made. However, for console users who won't get to have an immersive feel without these sounds and that's all down to the creator and their selfish ways by not spending more time fixing these, or asking for help if not knowing what to do...
     
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  2. Chandler721

    Chandler721 New Member

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    Spot on.

    Maybe TSW can add a mod feature to the game which allows us console users to download and install 3rd party mods. For example like Skyrim and Fallout have.
     
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  3. 1003523721

    1003523721 Member

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    Even DTG seems don't attach importance on sound. For example, they reuse the broken sound of the BR143 on BR112 (whose IRL is totally different from BR143), which still not fixed.
    Sound is my first priority on this game, if they still keeping doing something like this, I won't buy any DLC any longer.
     
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  4. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Sadly I don't believe it's a sound problem, but rather a physics problem.

    I remember DTG in one of the early streams (maybe they did one specifically talking about Simugraph) told us that the revving up of the engine on the Class 166 occurred "naturally" because simugraph accurately recreated the engine/transmission relationship and behaviour, and all of that was done well and realistically, which did lead to realistic engine performance, ergo, realistic sounds.

    TL; DR, The problem is not the sound is wrong, but the behaviour of the engine is wrong (is not revving up when it should).

    And for that reason I believe unlike the BR187 the modders won't be able to save this DLC sound wise.

    Don't want to knock Rivet too much, but given the fact the BR204 had a very similar problem (inaccurate gearbox behaviour in simugrah) I wouldn't be surprised if the fix for this would require an almost complete rebuild of the train's physics (which would be a stretch for DTG, and almost a certain impossibility from Rivet), or adding a fake "engine revving" sound, which would be just a 30 or so seconds sound clip which would start playing when you apply throttle and fade out so you can hear the "actual" engine noise, like the WHOOOSH sound when departing with the ACS-64, an option which I personally consider unsatisfying.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2021
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  5. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Shame that the 150 released the way it did. I thought rivet was finally making a proper change. Guess I was wrong
     
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  6. facundo.dim

    facundo.dim Member

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    As a "UK content only" player in TS, owning almost every UK DLC available from Steam and AP products, the sound is far from good. It's unbelievable that a train in the outdated graphics Train Simulator, is soooo much better than a newly released for a modern graphics engine.
    All new UK trains and locos that has been released by AP, should have at least the AP sounds in the version for TSW. You can't? Go and record new ones, but you can't offer a mediocre product when there is an excellent version for a previous game. For me, it's unacceptable that a previous game from the same developer has better trains (graphics in some cases, sounds in other, etc).
    When I started to play TSW, bought the UK routes and locos. The moment I turned on the 37 on Tees Valley Line and heard the sounds, started to buy all german routes and locos. I won't support UK products until they get the same or better quality than the TS versions.
     
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  7. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Active Member

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    Agree with your comments, though there is a 'change your vote' button in a little black box, near to where you can see the results of the poll. It would be great for your vote to be changed as we really need to get this sorted. I think TS classic on some ways is better because the sounds are more advanced. I am never going to use or purchase RIVET products again, this has aggravated me because I have looked forward to this for 5-6 months and now seeing it as it is has confirmed that they cannot do things up to scratch in terms of sound. They are just like Skyhook, they are both poor at sourcing crucial aspects of their DLC. Why do DTG not penalise them and accept that their 3rd party DLC creators are failing BADLY. Why don't they listen to us?!?!?!
     
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  8. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    I have created a petition

    https://chng.it/JrLYJW2ggZ

    Feel free to copy and paste / share and also make suggestions on wording and details that I have added.
     
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  9. thatleedsguy#8590

    thatleedsguy#8590 Active Member

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    Thanks. Signed
    I will try to share it as far as I can
     
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  10. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I signed it as well
     
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  11. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    Another thing that is also something for DTG / Rivet to consider, is that if Armstrong Powerhouse sounds are being quoted in the rivet wording and they release it as it is, not only is it giving DTG a really bad name but it’s also reflecting badly on AP too. For new comers that aren’t aware of the amazing quality that AP produce time and time again, and if they heard these sounds they will not be impressed. We all know it doesn’t reflect on AP what so ever as they have just been implemented unsuccessfully but not everyone will be aware. Therefore in an extreme end of the scale AP could technically start a lawsuit against them as it’s potentially ruining their hard earned reputation.
     
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  12. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    You know there’s an issue when its several year old counterpart, which also uses the same sounds, sounds SIGNIFICANTLY better than what we have in TSW.

    Sounds like Rivet have struggled to mix the sounds properly, as well as set the Simugraph physics correctly. The 150 shouldn’t immediately set off like an electric train when power is applied from standstill.

    They should’ve asked for assistance if they needed it. Which in this case, they clearly did.
     
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  13. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    The sounds are not bad, but also far away to get a "well done".

    So what can we see? Rivet is capable of creating visually stunning content and what i saw on stream the functionality of the train is good.

    Im not an audio engineer, and rivet hasnt one for sure as well. So for those kind of things, which are important to get done accurate in a simulator they should hire the a sound specialist or let the sound mixing do over dtg.

    I will buy west cornwall local, even if i thought we passed the point of the ductape system for tsw (mods and to fix released content)

    Its not fair to say rivet screwed up, because they have done many things the right way too.

    All 3 current devs have content out there with major things left to fix. My personal opinion is just that of those, dtg is on the best way to keep quality up in terms of bug fixing.

    Here few examples thats not just rivet:

    Dtg: wsr class 09 still lacks all the features of the cl.08 in terms of details, which is the reason i dont like to drive it.

    Skyhook: no words..., not to their products, its because they dont even responde to a customerbase, and dont have the balls to show up on their own f..n previewstream.

    Rivet:
    Except we ending up talking about sound alltime with rivets content, i can also enjoy the products they made. Like i said above i wont blame them, just let the work do by somebody works with audio as a pro.


    London commuter showed me that it was the right choice to change from ts2021 to tsw2 3 months ago, but the releases of the 187 and the bad sound of the tubestock makes this all tasting salty.
     
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  14. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I think we will get through this, hopefully with no ones livelihood adversely affected but it’s evident now

    • we don’t need more apology streams but fundamental improvements
    • All producers of DLC need defined standards to adhere to.
    • We know the team love trains, they should be calling out the sounds before us
    • Questions need to be asked in whether the QA team are trained to test what they are (by this I mean do they have some experience or source material they QA against, do they know what the train sounds like and it’s characteristics. Have they signed it off sounding like a train or sounding like a 150)
    • The community want the product to succeed, are passionate and will help if asked where we can
    • Train sim should not be outperforming it’s newer sibling, we’ve likely upgraded based on TSW outperforming in all not some areas
    • Dlcs need to be consistent. It boggles me we get amazing content like Dresden and Brighton and then the quality is allowed to drop, a route charter of features they all meet should be in situ if not already that’s updated.
    • Dlc shouldn’t be a feature / quality lottery.
    This is not a moan, just someone over 700hrs in that would like to buy more and enjoy more but In the right way.

    I was genuinely willing to put arosa and iow feedbacks behind me (I never bought) and give Cornwall a chance as I remember the 150s as a kid but I feel as I see more I’m losing the urge.

    If I can humbly ask one thing of DTG, please don’t let your own next route dlc turn up with less features (night lighting, timetable,) than your recent successes.
     
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  15. formulabee#1362

    formulabee#1362 Well-Known Member

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    Sounds are completely unacceptable; an insult to their iconic rev
     
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  16. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

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    The difference in 150 sound between the AP own version and Rivet's one is staggering. While the AP 150 even in first notches has its engine rev up and roar like a lion, the Rivet's 150 sounds more like a neutered cat.
     
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  17. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    About a minute in, there is a fair difference

     
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  18. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Fully agree. I just bought the BR155 and have been running it on Dresden. You could almost think the German stuff is a different sim.
     
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  19. bescot

    bescot Well-Known Member

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    No purchase from me unless those sounds and physics are fixed. I've bought every UK DLC, and pretty much most US and GE
    It's stopping now.

    I've said my piece in other threads, but devs, look at the 166 setup for a start: speak to Ed! Get a working Voith hydraulic box, add different sounds for EACH throttle notch plus the transitions between each notch, ahem, like AP did in the TS1 version, some bogie run sounds, and brake rub sounds.. Listen to people who've tried to help you such as Gary.. and I'll reconsider.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2021
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  20. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Active Member

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    I am sure I have signed this now. Chipped in aswell. This needs sharing far and wide. Added to TSW community group on FB aswell!
     
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  21. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I have signed though having to leave your email and verify via it might put some people off who would otherwise sign.
     
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  22. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    Not sure a petition is going to make any real difference. They know what the issues are, they know how to make it better, it's up to them whether they do that. They're not an organisation that has to answer to public calls for change, they're a commercial operation that wants your money, so vote with your wallet.

    The route looks good and it's one I am interested in, so I'll buy it when the sounds are fixed and it comes with PSN trophies. If you watched the stream, were outraged by the sounds and bought the DLC anyway, you've already wasted your vote.
     
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  23. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I’m happy with conclusive poll here as opposed to the 7 sig petition. Sorry
     
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  24. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    i won’t be buying it ! Simple as that.
     
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  25. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    I have only just started the petition. Give it a flipping chance.
     
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  26. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    Brilliant. Thanks :)
     
  27. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Community Manager Staff Member

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    Hey everyone, this thread is really valuable for helping us to communicate back to Rivet how you feel about the sounds on the 150.

    Now there are a couple of things I want to try and explain. Polls are a great way for us to determine where the community feelings are as a majority with any debate but they won't be completely . In this case the majority feel like the 150 sounds aren't up to the standard you expect.

    Unfortunately, we can only use polls to gauge a general feeling and not take them as hard facts - this is because many people will vote for various different reasons, some votes will be just to see numbers go up, others will vote who actually have little interest in the 150 or Penzance but enjoy taking part in a poll, some votes will be spite votes to go against the majority etc...

    The petition which has been started really shows how enthusiastic and passionate about this you are, but sadly it won't be able to change the sounds. We will ensure Rivet see how strongly you feel, however ultimately it's still up to them if they want to update the sounds.

    I understand that with the delay many will have hoped Rivet would find the time to make these changes, their focus at this time will entirely be on fixing any bugs.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2021
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  28. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Not saying that you are wrong, but when the disparity is as much as 80/20, it's pretty clear that even with these variables taken into account, the overall feeling of people in this forum (which no doubt isn't representative of the community at large which seems more bothered by the trophies and stuff like that), is, in fact that the 150 doesn't have sufficiently good sounds (and IMO physics).
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2021
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  29. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Community Manager Staff Member

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    We certainly use it as a gauge, but we've found that detailed feedback is much more valuable than 1 vote on a poll.
     
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  30. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    At least we have done it in a respectful way this time :) ……..I hope.

    You only have to play AP150 for 5 minutes to realise the HUGE difference in quality….especially as this was a product recorded more than 5 years ago. I sincerely doubt a small petition will do a huge amount, as does a poll…but it is OUR MONEY that we are spending here. If enough people refuse to buy it in its current state then this poll may have served it’s purpose.

    As I have said on other platforms, if Rivet’s sound work isn’t up to scratch, which clearly at the moment it isn’t, they risk people not buying it, plastering horrendous reviews all over the place, their reputation (and DTG’s) taking a southward direction and ultimately profits dropping, potentially risk going bust. So whilst you’re right - a poll does naff all in the short term, but it may just serve as a stark warning that a company’s reputation and how it treats it’s customers is paramount in this era. If they don’t listen or ask for help. They only have themselves to blame.

    I remember a few years back I was Musical Director for Sound of Music. Now with most musicals I’m confident with vocals, conducting the theatre orchestras, leading rehearsals and teaching all the various singing parts, vocal coaching and the like. I’ve won awards for my shows in the past and I will spend every spare hour rehearsing, fine tuning and perfecting every single aspect. However, with the Slund of Music, the show included Latin singing. I have NEVER studied Latin and wouldn’t have attempted to teach it to a group of singers, So I actually paid someone out of my own money to come in and teach the Latin pronunciations properly. Didn’t have to, we could have just busked it but I wanted it to be the best show possible. Moral of the story - get the right people to do the job and accept we can’t be brilliant at everything. Haha
     
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  31. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Can’t really agree with what Nat has written. DTG are the umbrella for all this content and sorry but the buck stops there if a contractor is failing to deliver goods to a sufficient standard. If a builder comes out to fix your garage (good luck finding one!) and does a sub par job, you withhold payment until they get it right.
     
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  32. HeyYoPaulie!

    HeyYoPaulie! Well-Known Member

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    Stating that quality control of third parties "is up to them" is a major part of the ongoing quality control issues.

    A significant source of frustration is that DTG are the publisher of TSW, yet are not exercising their responsibilities sufficiently in relation to quality control and standards.

    As the publisher, DTG can (and many in the community are arguing should) insist that the developers creating content for them "do better". If that means those devs need to going back into development to meet a minimum quality standard, so be it.

    If this doesn't happen, why would developers put in the effort to get quality right first time moving forwards?

    Ownership and responsibility for quality control can no longer be pushed back to third parties.

    Thought this had been acknowledged by Matt on Tuesday's stream, so surprised to read this response.

    DTG, as the publisher, need to take responsibility for the quality of all DLC they publish.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2021
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  33. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely Paulie. This is not freeware content going in the Workshop, it is £25 a pop.
     
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  34. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    I’ll actually be surprised if AP allow the sounds to go unfixed for too long. Being told these are AP sounds and the fact they do not sound like the actual AP sounds in game can’t be good. AP might be seen as having provided poor sound or might be reluctant to share their content in future.
     
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  35. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    It is no wonder people don't want to be third party content producers for TSW. It is no wonder people are wary of buying third party content for TSW. DTG takes a big cut, puts up roadblocks at all points and then throws you under the bus and takes zero responsibility for the content or fixes to it.

    If DTG want to just let anyone put out TSW content then do so on a buyer beware basis. If DTG want to closely control everything that goes out then apply the same levels of quality control and quality expectations to all content released on the TSW platform.

    Bug fixes are up to the third party, the quality of the product is up to the third party, preservation updates are up to the third party and yet you have pulled the release this week because there were issues found by DTG which it was felt were too significant to ship with. There are mixed signals all over the place, this will only result in poor sales for third parties further putting anyone off joining in. These things should be done collaboratively, collectively and with a unified front.

    Cathcart is again a shining example. Rivet helped make the route, provided resources and dev time to help create it and the quality is excellent. Further, as a DTG route we know there will be bug fixes and preservation updates. Rivet's own routes though, well not so much.

    The danger is it is that some content will be classified not as third party, but as second rate.
     
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  36. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    Hello Nat, straight question:

    If the sounds remain the same and sales are poor/less than 10% of what was expected will this be the final time DTG work with Rivet?

    Think we are now at a reasonable point to say the relationship is becoming...weary.. at best
     
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  37. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Community Manager Staff Member

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    No it will not be the last time.

    However if sales were impacted, we would look into all manner of reasons why, not just the sounds. A casual player is unlikely to feel as strongly about sounds as some of our more enthusiastic and knowledgeable members on the forums, so we would need to look into what else was causing contention.

    This doesn't mean we don't understand how passionate the community are about having authentic sounds and how important it is to many of you, we talk about it a lot and we understand when they are inaccurate it's a real bug bare and for some simply stops you from enjoying a route/loco or wanting to purchase it at all.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2021
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  38. facundo.dim

    facundo.dim Member

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    It's clear that a lot of people bothered by the trophies/achievements is a matter of what kind of players are buying/playing the game.
    The people fighting for better sounds, physics, scenery details, etc, are mostly hardcore trains fans. But the other worried about trophies and stuff like that are the casual players. They have a vote too, and I'm not obviously sure, but casual players must be more than the real trains lovers.

    As a player: WCL looks really nice, the Class 150/2 looks amazing and works as intended. Drive the train, stop at the stations, open the doors. Repeat. Same for the Class 37/5. I could play it as it is right now and enjoy it.
    As a huge trains fan: well, you can read about it in this thread.
     
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  39. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I do hope we will not end up with class 43 sounds on the first steam release or the sound of a kettle being recorded boiling driven in the back of a van because it mixed well. I feel we are treading into murky water here to which the locos that pride themselves on being a sim actually become a casual simcade interpretation rather than a simulation.
     
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  40. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    The last three DLC releases, all from third parties:

    1938 stock. Sounds nothing like the train when it was in operation
    BR187. Sounds nothing like it because it isn’t. It’s the BR185.
    150/2. Better than the last two but sadly lacking in the sound department despite having the source files available.

    All three look good but are completely let down by the sounds. I wasn’t going to buy the BR187 anyway but sadly, I am unwilling to buy the 1938 stock which I was really looking forward to.
     
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  41. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I refunded the 1938 stock purely because of the rancid sounds.
    Bought the BR155 instead which is a lovely loco.
    So DTG still got their money but I will not support any more products developed by Rivet, until they show improvement and fix the flawed content already released.
     
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  42. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Purely by using the word rancid I envisage you banged the table furiously prior to a refund :cool:
     
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  43. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    There's no way that sales will be reduced by 90%. I fully expect that most of the people who even have an issue with the sounds and are here voting that they're unacceptable, have already bought it anyway. Assessing quality and oting with your wallet doesn't seem to be a thing most people are willing to do when there's new content to be snapped up on release day.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2021
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  44. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    Well, Rivet has managed to drop the ball again, (not surprised) this latest DLC is a no purchase for me either, if sounds are always going to come in a poor fourth cousin then I seriously have lost interest in all the hyperbole from DTG and their third party developers regarding sounds, I think my time will be spent more on TS20xx until the soundscapes for TSW2 are heavily upgraded, Sam was right on that stream with the executive producer Matt about the importance of them (sounds).
     
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  45. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Active Member

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    Lesson learned today. DTG's representative has confirmed that they will practically release with the current sounds as they are seemingly refusing to intercept the produce that they are due to sell.

    If DTG have been issued AP sounds for their own DLC (Class 465, Class 314), why are they not willing to investigate the current sounds of the class 150 and help RIVET for future releases?

    If it's not right, don't release it. You are fixing class 'A' issues but surely DTG have been made aware that sound is also important to their customer base.
     
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  46. KoeleKoen

    KoeleKoen Well-Known Member

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    "accurate true-to-life performance and handling"
    to be fair...they didn't mention sounds to be authentic on the store page :')
     
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  47. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    The fact is that a big part of the playerbase is not made of hardcore train fans, and I just wanted to point out that probabily this forum is pretty biased, it's more UK focused, and more "hardcore train fan" compared to an "average user", my intent was not to mock anyone or similar, I said that to point out that IMO the biggest fault with a poll here on this forum is that we are not representative of the community at large rather than the 10 or 15 people that vote without thinking what they are doing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2021
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  48. bescot

    bescot Well-Known Member

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    Its obvious from this thread that Gary H and Alex J sent Rivet valuable info to help them. Why this just ignored please? Out of sheer arrogance or ignorance of sound engineering?

    The performance.isnt true to life either though.
     
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  49. dave from Cornwall

    dave from Cornwall Well-Known Member

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    Is it me, or is this forum about a game that I thought was about playing with trains, looking at signals and trying to get stations on time whilst driving interesting pretty varied routes? But actually what people want is to replicate standing on a platform and listening to a train rumble past?
     
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  50. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Active Member

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    I think on a fair reflection, your personal approach has been for RIVET to model the area/route in a sort of true to life basis. I have seen your posts on other forums so I can verify this. We all have a passion for how we would like things to be represented and on this instance, we are focusing on the sounds.
     
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