The Class 150 Sounds…

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by londonmidland, Oct 21, 2021.

  1. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    Awful sounds aside, can you actually believe this….


    Around the 6 minute mark. He’s in notch 1 climbing up a fairly steep gradient at 75mph and yet it is still accelerating?
    WHAT ARE THESE DEVELOPERS DOING …. THIS IS INSANELY INACCURATE. In real life I doubt even notch 4 would accelerate up hill at that high speed. Truly shocking. Utter clowns. I’ve given up all hope that this will come close to AP quality. For me - it no longer exists. I’m out !
     
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  2. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    There you go, as expected the physics were the problem. it's a shame, I was kind of intersted in this DLC, btw just wanted to point out that some trains get really close to AP quality (for example the BR465 if you don't consider the slightly too high acceleration), also the Class 166 considering its age is still very decent, so are the new Electrostars.

    Anyway, what this means it:
    1. This issue probabily won't be solved via mods: you can give the engine the best sound you want, but if it doesn't rev up when it should or generally behave realistically, it won't matter how good the sounds are (they used AP sounds)
    2. This (most likely) won't be fixed, just like the BR204. It would probaibly require an almost complete rebuild of the train's physics and the timetable might get messed up, so it would need, at the very least, extensive re-testing to make sure you arrive on time. We don't want another Arosa do we?
    While I wouldn't call them names (TBH I really feel bad for them). The Class 150 is just marginally better than the BR187 IMO
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2021
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  3. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    Just a thought. I wonder what AP make of all this. It can’t be doing their reputation any good when the problem is not of their doing. Would they be hesitant to licence their sound files to Rivet in the future if the result is likely to be similar.
     
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  4. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    It’s my understanding that Simugraph simulates all the components/systems in a train and how they interact together to reproduce the physics of the train and that the sounds are linked to the components for certain effects. Getting accurate physics, and therefore how the sounds react, will be down to having correct data for each component or system in the train to input into Simugraph. If that information isn’t available, instead of a simple set of data to imitate the acceleration or other behaviour and a separate sound that sounds like the train accelerating, the devs will have to guess at what each component and system is doing on the train during acceleration and endlessly tweak it to get the physics and the sound to behave realistically.

    Therefore I see Simugraph being a bit too complex to set up and later change to fix an inaccurate behaviour or sound during acceleration. Is it just too complex if the initial data isn’t available? Is it the correct way to simulate trains? Maybe someone with more understanding of this could shed some light on that. How would Rivet (or anyone else) get to know what component a and component b are doing inside the train to set up Simugraph effectively? You can’t get that from watching a video of a train departing but you can tell that it’s not right at the end by watching one. Is Simugraph to blame?
     
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  5. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    I was wondering that too it does not look good for AP's rep at all if 3rd party devs can butcher his recordings like that! If they were mine I'd soon revoke the license.
     
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  6. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

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    I doubt AP are that worried about a couple of hundred people complaining on a forum. Especially when those same people already know how good AP sounds are.

    The majority of casual players will neither have any idea who AP are, or that the sounds are even wrong.
     
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  7. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    And all those casual players may think that AP's sounds must be kak. Not something I'd like to be said about my products casual or not. plus it can take less than a couple of hundred people to destroy a person's or companies reputation these days. Gina Carrano anyone.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2021
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  8. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    The sounds themselves aren't necessarily the issue, but how they're applied to the train and mixed

    From listening to the streams last night the sounds in essence were fine, but how they're applied to the loco is back to front. A 150 revvs high and stays high no matter what speed the thing is doing, and it sounds wrong and is wrong that it will pull away in notch 1 or 2. Given that the engine note and revvs were trying to keep pace with the speed of the train it shows that something in the application of simugraph and of the sounds is just wrong.

    That Matt was driving it the same as he would an electrostar or german loco just looked (And sounded) wrong

    (Yes I used wrong too much in that response. I apologise)
     
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  9. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    I agree but perception is everything. Plus a casual gamer may not know that the sounds have been butchered?
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2021
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  10. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    I have offered NUMEROUS TIMES to help out, test it, give them my feedback, all for absolutely no credit, payment or freebies. As you can see in the screenshot. I just wanted it to be right. They haven’t asked for my thoughts on it once so far. 038E8ACB-C817-46D6-AF3E-3ECBEEB8ECCF.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2021
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  11. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Why would a casual gamer's opinion need to be addressed then? If they're so lackadaisical in their attitude then a> They probably wouldn't know what a 150 sounds like and b> they probably wouldn't do much about their opinion if they had one
     
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  12. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    That’s even worse than some of the early Sprinter attempts in TS where anything other than Notch 7 simply acted as a speed setting/cruise control. I am going to have to fire up the Open BVE 150 later, if I can find it in my jumble of files, in order to compare.

    And as regards some of the other posters who seem to regard this as some sort of OCD by a handful of cranks/bashers, emphatically not so. This is billed as a simulation even on consoles, not an arcade game and one therefore expects the supplied trains to sound and run in a manner that resembles the prototype. And if Rivet/DTG get away with this, what other corners are they cutting? Would flight simmers accept a Cessna with the physics of a 747, or a 747 that sounds like a Cessna.
     
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  13. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Probabily the train's physics were set in stone way before the 16th of October. And again, it's not like TS, they need to have an accurate reproduction of the engine and gearbox, and that will result in the correct behaviour, also once the timetable is done, there is no changing of the vehicle's performance.

    Wether the problem was not obtaining the necessary informations about the prototype (which is unlikely), or wrong/oversimplied integration on Simugraph I don't know.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2021
  14. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    The thing that makes this situation so frustrating is that the reason the sounds are awful is not because the appropriate sounds could not be properly recorded or accessed. I understand that getting access to the real life train and recording can be a problem depending on the train, country, and operator. However, in this case, AP literally provided Rivet with their professionally recorded 150 sound set. There’s no excuse beyond poor implementation and mixing by Rivet. I know there’s some limitations with the UE4 audio engine, so it’s understandable if the sounds don’t sound as good as the AP 150 for TS1, but some of the issues here still have no excuse other than poor implementation on Rivet's part.
     
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  15. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    Can you explain this? Because I know games using UE4 with excellent sounds.
     
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  16. bescot

    bescot Well-Known Member

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    DTGs BML 377 uses pretty much an identical soundset to APs 377 pack and it sounds the same.

    Not much wrong with the UE sound engine except on Xbox from what I've heard. You can't blame UE for this, only the sound engineers.

    I've just watched a very short section of last night's stream. We were losing speed coasting down a 0.6% grade somehow, and yet the emergency stop when Matt missed the DVD took an AGE to stop the train as if it was freight. Much oddness.
     
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  17. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Active Member

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    UE4 was around when the 465, 377 (latest sounds), 47,33,20,31, HST,166... etc,etc.... There is no excuse for this, we have decent sounding trains n this simulator/game. This should have been the flagship for RIVET's latest DLC, it still isn't acceptable.
     
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  18. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    The audio engine for ue4 is pretty impressive.
    https://docs.unrealengine.com/4.27/en-US/WorkingWithAudio/AudioEngineOverview/
    Guess the time and resources required were not particularly given a high priority?
    Let's hope that the new lead sound engineer DtG is looking for will give the sounds, in general, an overhaul reflective sounds, etc, and make TSW 2 an audio experience as well as a visual one.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2021
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  19. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

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    To be fair this route has been a bit odd since the start;
    -It was in planning seemingly longer than in development (I wouldn't say the roadmap is particularly accurate though)
    -It took ages to confirm what rolling stock would be included
    -The route era changed after a few weeks (said to be 'wrongly' labelled)
    -It was randomly extended to St Austell for no apparent reason
    -It appeared in testing far sooner than anticipated (given it was only labelled as in development for a couple of months)
    -Now the release has been postponed because major issues were found last minute somehow
    (whoever scheduled the release of this route when it was still going through Q&A really ought to have a rethink).
    (might be a good idea to give more time between scheduled release and the conclusion of Q&A to give more time for fixes).
     
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  20. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    Let's hope that Matt going forward does what he intends and gets more involved with third-party releases ensuring quality has a standard set that isn't just haphazard as it has been?
     
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  21. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    Rivet games has a thing for messing up transimissions and implementing the wrong one, see BR 204. I wonder if they did that here too, might be linked to some of the sound problems.
     
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  22. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    I seem to recall DTG or Matt mentioning a while ago that UE4 came with limited audio channels which is why some sounds lack depth to them. And that’s why TSW sounds, even if highly accurate, lack a bass to them. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.
     
  23. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    There are many games with UE4 and great sound. ACC, for example.
    The problem you are talking about might be related to the XBox version of the game.
     
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  24. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    The only issue with UE4 is that some people don't understand it, most likely it is more complicated than expected, rather than the engine not being good enough.

    Remember before each engine upgrade everything is expected to be fine and then afterwards...well the preservation crew are still working on the effects of last year's upgrade and the effect on the sound of preserved content in TSW2...

    The changelogs contain hidden elements that change the way sounds work together or are played and these things don't get picked up until after the event. If engine upgrades become an annual event or even a bi-annual event then this process needs to be got to grips with so they don't get buffeted left, right and centre by engine changes that have unforseen effects.
     
  25. roysto25

    roysto25 Active Member

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    My hope is that, rather than listening too closely to the threatening and immoderate language in this thread, DTG are taking a holistic approach to the problem and examining the interface between the UE4 sound engine, actual sound files and Simugraph reproduction of physics, because this is not a simple sound mixing problem. The new sound engineer, when on board, will I am sure get results. For instance, in the later part of Matt's driving of the 150, he showed how driver behavior affects the behavior of the engine/torque fluid coupler. The model maybe does behave as in real life, but perhaps the speed/intensity of those effects needs tweeking and driver notes added to the (probably non-existent) manual. Also, I suspect many users are basing assessment of sounds based on computer speakers, rather than high-end sound systems or good quality headphones. There is a enormous gain in immersion when using the latter, although it will not add what is not there.
     
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  26. isaac47593

    isaac47593 Well-Known Member

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    Whilst the sounds on the 150 are far from good, they at least vaguely resemble the sounds. Its not like they’ve pulled a skyhook and reused sounds from something like the 101 lol
     
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  27. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    so you’re saying a real life unit with 286hp per car can accelerate up a gradient at 75mph in notch 1 then ? Absolute joke.
     
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  28. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Agreed Gary. And it is exactly this sort of tolerance of gross errors and dismissal of valid criticism as "threatening and immoderate", which will allow the developers to continue to get away with it in future.
     
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  29. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    i also think one of the biggest frustrations is that unlike TS2021 we cannot edit or customise anything like physics or cab seat height, camera positions, brake force etc in TSW like we used to in the older gen simulators. If they messed it up we could easily tweak it ourselves. With TSW is we don’t have an editor or anything to correct some of the inaccuracies ourselves so we are stuck with it.
     
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  30. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    No, that's not what he said at all. Strawman.
     
  31. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    You are aware, aren't you, that Rivet used AP sounds on the 150?

    Good raw sound files are one thing, the hard part is the mixing.
     
  32. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    Here’s a quote from a post Matt made on the forums about UE4 and audio. Apparently UE4 has a 32 audio channel limit while TS1 has 256. 1F61D5EC-6AEC-4B6F-8AF1-A734C82A5591.jpeg
     
  33. lucas_5_5

    lucas_5_5 Well-Known Member

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    I hope Rivet take the time to fix the issues and upgrade and update the sounds on the 150 mainly. And i hope they can see this as and investment, not a waste of time, because it could potentially affect in their sells in their next Dlc. (not to mention on this Dlc, obviously)
     
  34. Geth_2234

    Geth_2234 Well-Known Member

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    you are exactly right there to put it into perspective I work for a maintenance company and we are a subsidiary of a housing association so only do work for them. If we did a sub standard job residents would complain to the housing association (our parent company) and if they deem it necessary won’t pay us and we would have no choice but to go back there and do a proper job because it’s there reputation on the line aswell.
     
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  35. Geth_2234

    Geth_2234 Well-Known Member

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    It’s not as if it’s difficult to find a 150 in the uk, there is multiple operators north and south operating 150s, and you can pick up a return ticket for as little as 3 quid in some places to travel on one, So reference material would be so easy to get, It’s just laziness.
     
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  36. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately I couldn't get the OpenBVE 150 started to do a comparison - need to play around with the keys a bit.

    One other thing apparent from the video - it would be most unusual if pretty much unheard of to operate an 8 car 150 formation in passenger service. Other than actually locking entire sets out of use there is, at least of the time the route is set, no selective door operation which would result in passengers being able to open doors that are off the platform. It's bad enough that TSW shows this with loco hauled stock. but power operated door trains a big no no. I'm assuming the long formation is deputising for the HST and Cross Country formations but as someone who spent a large part of their railway career in the Control Office dealing with Regional Railways stock allocation, we were lucky to have enough trains each day to just cover the diagrams, let alone spares. Most shifts required considerable manipulation and stepping up of resources just to keep the service going. If a spot hire was made to cover a HST or other non RR working, it would have been one unit.
     
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  37. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    "Other." I don't want to say the sounds are OK, but they are not Game-Breaking Definite Not-Buy Bad like the BR 187's. They're just disappointing.

    The kicker for me rather has been what appear to be (based on what those familiar with real 150s have posted) completely unrealistic driving physics.
     
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  38. Chandler721

    Chandler721 New Member

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    If RIVET have used Armstrong Powerhouses sounds, Get AP on board to put it right! Clearly RIVET can’t and are not looking to improve the horrendous sounds which are terrible. Only the unit idling is right, nothing else is…… Even pulling off is too fast!

    If releases are going to keep being like this, then add an in game mod manager for us console users, so we can download and install mods to actually correct things. Your own fanbase and users can mod and improve things via PC, so it just goes to show that things can be done and can be improved.
     
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  39. james64

    james64 Well-Known Member

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    I'm certain that the 8 car formation exists solely for the scenario planner. I seriously doubt it'll show up in the timetable or any scenarios. In fact I don't think we'll see many 4 car formations, if any.
     
  40. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Let's hope not.

    Re the OpenBVE 150, well the sounds aren't perfect but they are far better than those on the Rivet model and include brake rub and reverb passing through tunnels and under bridges. Performance wise, yes the unit barely moves in Notch 1, which is essentially there to fill the transmission, needs Notch 3 or 4 to get moving with a loud roar, too.
    So even that would have been a better reference point for Rivet.
     
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  41. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    But the audio on acc on xbox is fine
     
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  42. KoeleKoen

    KoeleKoen Well-Known Member

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    Cause kunos studios were smart enough not to use the xbox sound engine
     
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  43. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    What date is attached to that quote? I think this was an issue back when GWE came out and sounds would frequently cut each other out. I believe this has long since been overcome, however, and it has been demonstrated more than once that good sounds are perfectly achievable in UE4, and indeed in TSW.
     
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  44. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    Even if it had only 16 - plenty of availability to add in a bit of brake rub, track squeal and engine revving up.
     
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  45. spicemaster

    spicemaster New Member

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    Achivements arn't more important than sounds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
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  46. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    If UE4 is responsible for the sound limitations then, 1. It was always a poor choice for a genre that requires numerous sound sources. 2. Time to think about moving over to a different platform for TSW3 and 3. Maybe see if some of the TSW features like timetable mode and being able to change trains etc. can be added to TS (accepting first person movement/interaction probably wouldn't be possible).
     
  47. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    You missed out the words "in my opinion".
     
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  48. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Ah, exactly why I started a poll on this very question.
    It's a true, if unfortunate, fact for some of us, that DTG has to acknowledge and listen to the seemingly large number of people who play this game purely to achieve some kind of competitive summit that has little to do with trains as such. They're not aware of or concerned with sounds, physics or scenic accuracy. That's a gross generalization/simplification I know. But these players are a large part of the market and are perfectly entitled to be counted and catered to by DTG.
     
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  49. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Active Member

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    Sounds cut off at 75mph, just thought I would make you all aware. All that can be heard is the generic 'motion sounds'. Shame. However, when in idle and at 75mph +, the engine sounds are heard in motion. Weird!
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2021
  50. formulabee#1362

    formulabee#1362 Well-Known Member

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    Jasper_Rivet that is an absolute disgrace. You had people of use to you but you take little to none notice of it. Shame on Rivet
     
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