The Final Frontier For Tsw: Longer Routes?

After doing some thinking about the game recently, I think that TSW has mastered the art of building 40ish mile routes that offer quite a variety of gameplay. There are now tons of options to chose from in this category. Almost all the routes in existence now have services that last approximately an hour or less, with very few of them extending much past an hour and a half. I think the future success of the game lies in developing some longer routes where people can sit down for a few hours and run a train 100 to 150 miles.

I fully understand that this is not appealing to everybody, but my point is that there are a ton of route options out now for people who only want to drive for an hour or less. There are a lot of people, especially fans on the American side, that would love to have a long route to sit down and drive. So much of the amazing railroading in the western United States exists in great stretches through some amazing scenery where cities are far apart. Some of them that come to mind that already exist in Train Sim Classic would be routes like: Marias Pass, Soldier Summit, The Shasta Line, Stevens Pass, Donner Pass, Arizona Divide, etc. As a fan of US content, the last thing really missing from the game are the long routes and the long American intercity passenger trains. The majority of the Western US is served by Amtrak Superliners, which are completely missing in the game. I'm fairly certain that if the P42DC is ever made with a substantial route to use it on it, will be very popular. The Amtrak P42 has been around for so long now it is about as famous as the red white and blue Amtrak F40's. Cajon Pass was the first American route that felt like it had real western US distance and could have even included an Amtrak Superliner with it.

I think there are certainly some people now who would love to sit behind the controls of a long distance freight train or an Amtrak Superliner and take it on a 3-5 hour 100-150 mile leg of its journey across the country. This isn't something people who play everyday will do all the time but it would certainly be fun to break up the 1 hour commuter journeys with a long single run that takes up the majority of your time playing for the day. Even for the UK content, the only two routes which have the HST are less than 40 miles, which is hardly enough distance to truly enjoy and feel like you are operating that train on a substantial leg of its journey.

Dovetail have proven they can build a variety of TSW routes that offer an hour to an hour and a half driving experience, and the options for people who enjoy this are numerous now. I really think it's time for them to shift their focus and expand the options for players with some longer routes and longer services. I have doubts this will happen because it is more work, more time, and may not appeal to everybody. Not to mention they have a schedule and are constantly trying to pump out new DLC. I'm curious to hear other people's thoughts and opinions though, and perhaps if more people share my viewpoint then maybe this won't land on deaf ears at Dovetail. Cheers friends!

 

Now we have the classic Cajon Pass (played this on TSC, Run8 and now TSW).

I'd go for one of the most classic routes in train simulation history: Marias Pass. (MSTS, TSC).

 

I prefer more complex routes. eg. DRA, SEHS.
Monotonous route looks like a country railway. SKA Koln looks like not busy.
There 21 main stations in Germany. I'm confused if we have 21 DLCs of these, how do we drive ICE between major cities?

 

I support longer routes only if there is a working save system. There are many moments where loading from a save turned off certain switches and systems in the train. I don't want to spend the time trying to figure out why my train isn't working the way it should be working. I also don't have the attention span to sit for more than an hour without getting bored/tired and just life reasons in general. Telling me not to buy something just cuz it's long isn't a valid argument if anyone tries to argue.

There are many things to consider when building long routes. There are certain players who want an entire mainline that has several hundred miles and take several hours or even a full shift to complete. However, for that to happen in a reasonable amount of time, makes it highly unlikely. That's probably going to end up taking over a year. Look at simrails route that took several years to create. Even if their route building got better, it's still a really long time. Even with dtgs skillset and team, it would still take close to a year or more. Even if it was 100-200 miles, still a long time. This means fewer releases and variety cuz the longer route would take up all the resources and dev time and employees. Even with separate teams for each region, if you create a long route for each of them, you're still only seeing 3 releases per year or longer.

Another reason why it might not be viable is the expectations of the players. They want detailed routes that have all the landmarks, correct environmental details, track assets and accurate stations. And if anything is missing or wrong, then certain players will complain and call dtg lazy. Of course you can't please everyone but players want more detailed routes. That means a lot of work has to go into modeling by hand everything in the route. Autogen can only do soo much. It's not just 100+ miles of track. It's 100+ miles of everything. You also need to program the signaling logic, simugraph and other elements of tsw. There's the timetable that needs to be created and tested little by little. Longer routes have longer test times which adds up over time.

 

There are technical difficulties:
Timetable, path and signal.
DTG worked bad in short routes. Long routes will be a disaster.

 

Glad this works in TSC

 

I would not support a longer route if the scenery suffers, as shown with Cajon Pass. The Pass, the highlight of the route was rushed, you can tell when you compare it with Victorville. Not to mention there is still a landmark in the game files still not placed.

 

I agree 110% with you nice long route like penzance to Scotland be nice lol

 

Longer routes aren't the final frontier
A working network with interoperable timetable structures and built in delay factors would be more of a frontier than just a longer version of an A2B route...

Think about it, they could build the London to Edinburgh route if they wanted, but it's still one route going from one direction to another. Not great for freight, depot moves or anything else that happens away from that line.

 

Longer routes like SKW kind of defeat the point with half of it being in tunnel and most of the rest generic German woods and fields. However if we are ever going to see routes like the Kyle Line, Cambrian Coast, Newcastle to Carlisle or indeed Settle & Carlisle, then they need to bite the bullet at least so far as mid distance, up to about 80 miles, are concerned. But I don’t see that happening with the forthcoming Peak Forest being a case in point. It should have run from Derby to Manchester or at least south to Derby, not start and finish at two operationally relatively unimportant junctions. Essentially like starting WCML North at Lockerbie and finishing at Carstairs.

Personally I would like to see more network style routes with complex service structures, as much as longer routes per se. Something like the old SE London for TSC or the complete LT&S network, maybe the Wherry Lines plus Sheringham.

 

TSW still misses out on some decent length intercity routes. There's routes that offer intercity traffic, but they're all kinda short.

 

I think that was what put me off NYT more than the bugs… Essentially about 40 miles of fast running once you crawl out to Newark. Should have gone to Philadelphia at least. Even home grown UK, BCC they CBA to put in the line out to Soho Depot (well it’s there but not functional) or the routes to Walsall and maybe Wolverhampton, as I said above a decent little network.

 

Personally I think NYT is a step in the good direction for route length. At least it's miles better than routes like London-Reading and Duisburg-Bochum, which are really too short for the IC services they offer.

 

Its been mentioned multiple times, if they did that, you lose commuter traffic on the part of the route between Trenton and Philly as DTG does not have a SEPTA License, And the reviews would be even worse than they are now with the current timetable.

 

The good thing about TSW, is that with timetable mode you can essentially do endless journeys and play for as long as you like. Often if I do a short 30 minute service, I might stay with the train and perform the return journey too. I don't necessarily want all routes to be longer, but would prefer more routes to be complete and to have a few more routes with longer duration high speed running, especially for the UK.

ECML South London King's Cross to Peterborough is around 80 miles, which seems more plausible now that we have some of the appropriate rolling stock to make a decent timetable. Something like WCML Over Shap would be ideal for a long run in a Pendolino, or an extended WCL for a full Cornish Main Line for a lengthy run in a classic diesel or a HST.

I would still like to see 'short' routes however. Those that may not be physically long but still offer 45+ minute duration services. Cross-City is a good example, which although it's only 37 miles, offers some of the longest duration UK services in the game. Also, if shorter routes take less time to produce and could release at a lower cost, then I'm fully supportive of that if it means we could get more content variety in a shorter amount of time.

Even something like a short GWR steam branch line in-between bigger releases would be appealing, which I would guess is what Peak Forest is trying to be like, a shorter route as a stopgap between a big UK summer release.

 

Well it hasn’t stopped other routes where they don’t have licenses or CBA to include other company trains, BCC being a prime example with empty New Street.

 

I think 80 to 100 miles is probably ideal for a longer route. I would be happy to see even longer personally, but we are a long way from that. Some of my favourite routes are the shorter ones or small networks like Cathcart or Cross City because they feel complete. The new MML looks good but the main interest for me will be the 158 services, 40 miles in a HST isn't really that long a run, Leicester to Sheffield for me would be a good distance for an intercity service and you will still have the 158 services. What few UK fast runs we have are over too quickly.

I would like to see some shorter steam routes. I am not sure what Peak Forest is trying to be, a short GWR branch line is logical, the choice of route for Peak Forest is illogical as both start/end points are pretty insignificant stations. Despite DTG's "explanation" as to the choice of route, it is clear they just didn't have the budget or inclination to build into a busy cityscape like Derby, which for me sacrifices immersion which surely this sim is about.

 

Which is strange really as they had no issue doing BCC with the complexity of New Street (albeit most of it inert) or all the locations on SoS. I begin to wonder if not only the talented train building staff haemorrhaged away from the company but some of the route building team too. Simply haven't got the talent to build large complex locations or long routes anymore. Either that or all the resources are channelled into this upcoming yet TBC new modern route and Peak Forest is already an afterthought even before release.

And this too is why there should be some sort of third party route editor available, even if it has to be requested like in the original KRS days. I'm sure many of us wouldn't mind having a go at creating something like the Fairford branch or, in my case part of the old SMJ maybe Blisworth to Banbury, see if we have the ability to do something with it.

 

Cathcart and Cross-City are also some of my favourites, but we can't have too many commuter network style routes without ignoring high speed, vintage and freight. I do believe there are UK routes DTG could make in an acceptable timeframe which allow for longer high speed running. The upcoming Midland Main Line feels like it's primarily focused as a diesel commuter network for the Class 158, and the HST services are an added extra to fill in the fast lines. We can see this given we're only getting one freight service (initially). I don't think Skyhook would have gone up to Sheffield (which more-or-less doubles the total route length) or the route may have taken another 12 months to build (assuming they haven't been working on anything else since their last release about a year ago).

I don't mind Peak Forest being the length it is, even though I understand the start/end points aren't the most ideal. It contains the most scenic and challenging part of the route which is the main focus, and I really hope it releases alongside improvements for Crewe - Liverpool to further complement that route. I probably wouldn't pay £29.99 for it though, at most £19.99 given it only contains one new loco and because it isn't a full Derby to Manchester run. It will likely have to wait for a sale unless the gameplay shown is compelling enough for me to purchase on day one. The cost would be better justified if the 4F layers onto Crewe - Liverpool also.

What I would most like to see in the near future is a longer high-speed focused UK route (e.g. ECML South) after the release of MML and Peak Forest. Improvements to Crewe - Liverpool with the release of Peak Forest and possibly an updated London Commuter with layers for the Class 700 with the new unannounced UK route which I expect will release sometime late summer / early autumn. After that we could see some shorter UK route releases from 3rd parties towards the winter (Just Trains and maybe ATS), hopefully with some vintage diesel traction which we haven't seen in a good while.

Going forward longer term, a mix of routes that complement one another with layers or by maximising the reuse of existing assets would be most ideal, as to ensure gameplay is engaging similar to the timetables we see with London Commuter and Southeastern High Speed. Something like Edinburgh to Dundee with a Scotrail HST and a Class 170 would be my pick, as it nicely complements Edinburgh to Glasgow with layers for the Class 385 and allows for an hour's drive in a HST along with a new much-requested train type (the turbostar). If ECML South appears beforehand, a Class 800 would also layer on. Other routes like Exeter to Plymouth with a Class 150/2, Class 158 and Class 802 (subject to DTG being able to reuse the GWR license) or a 1970's ECML York to Newcastle with a Class 55, Valenta HST and NTP layers. Even some more expansion/gameplay packs such as BR Green diesels for Peak Forest would be welcome. These all seem like achievable projects which would have a good reception.

Lots of ideas, lots of wishful thinking, lots of time (and patience) needed for it all to happen. We do need some longer routes in the short term, but we can't necessarily ignore shorter routes going forward also.

 

Code:

///I believe they got it right this time. If you think back many years ago, when they did that, many people were lost since it took too long and not everyone had the time. ///

 

Route length isn't so important to me, I prefer a max service duration of about 90mins with most completable in around 60 minutes.

But 90mins is still plenty of time to do a good length route in the UK at least.

 

yes 90 minutes is perfect

I agree with you Bud

 

In my view, the final frontier is to fix bugs and broken services... utopian though

 

I agree with what you're saying, and to be fair the intent of my original post was never to say that DTG should completely abandon shorter routes. My point was that the current choice of routes in the catalog offer a rather healthy amount of choices for shorter routes but really not a lot that offers decent length, and more so about the time it takes to run said length. SKW, which is the longest route, still only takes about 1.5 hours or less on an ICE train. And somebody already mentioned that the route scenery isn't entirely exciting being so heavily dominated by tunnels.
Shorter routes certainly have their place, but some longer routes with better runs for IC trains like the HST as you mention, are certainly lacking.
A lot of people have mentioned the increased time, effort, etc it takes to build longer routes, which is understandable as DTG is a business and is trying to pump out contact to maintain revenue streams. So I wonder also what thoughts from DTG and the community would be towards route extensions similar to what they did with SEHS. It takes less time to simply add on to the route to increase the length than to build a long route from scratch. This is something I personally would be open to. I know a lot of people have mentioned that even some of the shorter routes feel "incomplete" and I fully agree. Who knows, but it is all interesting discussion.

 

Mixed messages from DTG on this as it was at least hinted SEHS was rebuilt not bolted on to the existing route. However just about every route in the game, except the IOW, have potential for extension in one or more direction. Just don't see it happening.

 

I agree with you, and that's the break over point that DTG never seems to find very well. They have these rigid deadlines for things that rarely seem to get pushed back like the should. Hence timetable of NYT, hence the scenery of Cajon pass as you mention. I do think there is worthwhile investment though in building a Marias Pass or even a Donner Pass route and investing the time to do so because I feel the longer full length routes would be popular amongst the US content enthusiasts. Running a heavy freight from Roseville to Reno that takes 3-5 hours probably isn't for everyone, but that's why there's lots of options. We just need some lengthier options. Pipe dreams more than likely but it is fun to hope. You've made lots of good suggestions for such routes, we'll see where DTG picks up next for American content though. If it is another electrified passenger route I feel like we can kiss any hopes of western states railroading goodbye.

 

I also agree with your point, there are already lots of 'short' routes to choose from, and far fewer longer routes especially with regards to high speed running. Which is why I would like DTG particularly to spend some more time and consider building a few more 'mega routes' similar to London Commuter or SEHS rather than more routes like Cathcart or Cross-City in the near term, even if that means a slightly longer wait in-between releases. ECML South would be a good start.

Although to counteract my own point above, Spirit of Steam could be regarded as a 'mega route' despite its modest length, and may have caused a slight backlog (worthwhile for getting steam in-game of course) as it seemingly took longer to develop than most other projects (we got a good 8 months in-between DTG UK releases for what was only a 36 mile route). All those new period assets that needed building should make future releases (like Peak Forest) slightly more swift.

Similarly, the original GWE and NTP had long release times in-between releases, despite only being ~40 mile routes, because lots of assets needed building from scratch. Hopefully we shouldn't have this problem going forward (at least with regards to UK routes) as most major eras are now represented with appropriate assets, so we can start seeing more longer routes. This may also be why DTG are hesitant to explore new countries, as many new assets needed would constrict route length and possibly reduce appeal (along with an uncertain market outside of their primary player base in the UK, US and DE - but that's another discussion).

Sorry for the rather lengthy replies today, I may have drunk a bit too much tea and got carried away

 

100-180 miles imo is perfect, at 100-150 miles you can get about an hour-two hours of running on faster lines and over two hours on slower services. But i would rather DTG develop slowly, we start with 50 onto 60 onto 70 onto 80, etc.

 

op: I've tried to bark up this tree over years time (not just from this one account) and there's literally no response. Along with your suggestions even Fairbanks, Alaska to Anchorage Alaska, or even further to Whittier or Seward Alaska would be over 360+ miles. It's rivers, mountains and trees. It could be done and beautiful. But no... just nothing. Closest we got was Anchorage to Seward which is practically a joke, and only freight on TSC. No passenger. US seriously is neglected for what us rail fans expect of the US. Sure the NEC is a popular route but that's a small section of this country. Good luck. If you have a lead with DTG I will stand by you 100%. If not this is just talking to a wall.

 

The TSC Anchorage-Seward route is beautiful, a G-Trax/Milepost collaboration iirc. You can get the ARR passenger cars for free from RailworksAmerica, and then run passenger scenarios.

 

I had given up on TSC the moment TSW was announced because of the generational jump, so I missed out unfortunately. But still, we're in the next gen world right now so lets get some content.

 

The one TSC route which keeps catching my eye is Peace River, but I can’t quite bring myself to buy it. Think the locos got mixed reviews on Steam and lack that distinctive Canadian style chime horn sound.

 

How about combining long distance and international these are 200 km 125 mi Duisburg Hbf Amsterdam Centraal via Zevenaar Arnhem & Utrecht 173km Wunderline Bremen Oldenburg Bad Nieuwschans Groningen and 220km 135 mi Hauptstrecke Riesa-Dresden Bodenbach (Decin) Aussig an der Elbe (Usti nad Labem) Prag. However the route between Dresden and Prague you have the kilometer Stones reset at Decin (Bodenbach) because North of that kilometer Stones start at Dresden while Decin to Prague section kilometer Stones display the distance to Vienna Central Station (Wien Hbf) a legacy of Austria-Hungary where the railroads tend to display distance to either Vienna and Budapest.

 

Longer routes, like their long roadmap bug and performance fixes? Well then you could drive in eternity.

If DTG fixed their game first than probably yes, but only for high speed routes for me. They also could link maps together (in theory, don't know about practical issues). For example, I got Nahverkehr Dresden and Tharanter rampe which could both be linked together because they both have Dresden hbf. So if you got both maps then you would get options for special long services. They also could do this for other/future maps.

 

The excuse we hear the most often is "there wasn't enough time", yet one would think by now they would understand how long it takes to build a route to a good standard with a some built-in margin for polish and extras. Surely their own employees must get a wee bit fed up with the mediocre project management, constantly putting the community-facing folks in awkward situations?

 

There is a difference between a long high speed route with 3 stations and a long route with multiple stations

 

Exactly. You would think after 6 years of tsw, they would know how long it would take to build a certain route yet DTG still persist with these self imposed deadlines which goes back to bite them like what happened to New York-Trenton which rightfully was received poorly by most people. They seem to make the same mistakes even after saying they don't want to repeat them

 

That was my point, SKW was very much low hanging fruit and not typical of a traditional route that length.

 

DTG really need to increase route length, i feel like these monthly 20-30 mile long routes are gonna get boring quick

 

Personally I'd like to see more network style routes. Where you have 3 or 4 terminating stops and a shared central section. Similar to SEHS, ECW, Cathcart, BML, LIRR, Dresden Reisa and the upcoming MML, but on a larger scale.

Even if its just 45 min runs, the variety is there not always having to go from A to B every time.

I'd love to see some more commuter routes with other lines of LIRR, Metro North, MBTA, and NJT done as well.

My biggest gripe I have are the unatural end of lines. If you are going to do a small commuter line then at least do the entire line not 3/4. And if its a long route then both the start and end stations should be at least big notable stations.

 

No SEPTA license. And if you think the howling was loud for the released route, imagine it had they included 30th Street with no commuter traffic!

 

There's no license to make that route. And no, a tsc license doesn't mean a tsw license are possible. It's two different things.

 

Come back down to earth lol

 

I would love London - Leeds or London-Manchester

 

The reason I didn't buy more TSW3 DLCs, at least one, unreasonable length of the route.
DTG has always made semi-finished products. Many S-Bahn are incomplete.
It's much like the original demo, not like a mature product that's been out for years.
There are 21 major stations in Germany. How do you drive ICE between major cities?
As it currently stands, we will have 21 DLCs, not a complete route.
My feeling is: You just buy 21 repeatedly, not 21 different ones.

 

yep i agree, i thought with TSW 2 we would get much longer routes, but same old story 6 years after launch

 

i think currently released NEC NY-Trenton/Mainz-Koblenz are kinda milestone on how to deal with longer routes.
of course my heart cries out like "why no more to philadelphia" but progression is progression anyway.

 

I find myself far more inclined to start shorter services that I know I'll be able to finish in one sitting. Even routes where I really enjoy the trains, like the Baby Bullet services on PC, I'll often think twice about. BCC services just over the hour mark are about as far as I'd want to go in most sessions and I've actually been quite enjoying doing the shorter runs on BRO and NYT which slot nicely into my day. Can't imagine I'd ever start a 3 hour service unless it was something spectacular (nothing will be that good).

For me, shorter, bustling routes with interesting gameplay will always trump slow slogs across the wilderness for hours on end.

 

I agree that a long run needs to be interesting, and I'm not always in the mood for a long run.

However, it'd be nice to be able to have longer runs available, for whenever I am in the mood for a long run. TSC has plenty of those opportunities. Taking a commuter train could easily take anywhere between 1 or 2 hours. But even intercity services could easily take an hour on some routes.

And then there's Canadian Mountain Passes route... I believe I only once completed the full 6-hour run in one go.

 

This is where it’s a shame DTG didn’t take forward routes like Bakerloo and add the remainder of the Euston to Watford DC Lines and North London/Goblin Lines. Obviously I would prefer a bygone area so Broad Street could also be included along with Camden Road to North Woolwich but modern would do. What a network that would offer!