Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Cael, Jul 24, 2021.
And they listen to what the community actually wants and gives them what they want
I don’t think the “one price fits all” strategy really works. Something like Riesa-Dresden with the branch lines and six (seven? Eight?) locomotives included would be a great value for a new player who doesn’t have all of those trains. You just have to do a better job at convincing them that it’s worth £30 instead of the usual £25, and maybe offer it at £25 for people who already have most of those trains from other routes.
But brd is the same usual price as a standalone dlc. The season ticket is where the price increases but you get 3 routes with that instead of one
Right, but I’m not talking about the season pass here. What I’m saying is, as a stand-alone route, with the branches and a ton of locos/cars/train sets, DTG could charge more for it; they just have to show people why it’s worth the extra cost. (Because of the extra dev time, the network feel, and the number of locos—including a brand new repaint and modified model of the 363.)
I’m also saying that in general, the routes aren’t necessarily all equal in development time, and shouldn’t necessarily be priced equally. Either due to the quality or detail of some or all of the product, miles of route included, number of locomotives included, whether those are new models or modified models or just repaints, etc.
Setting the price DTG did for the bundle/season pass is a separate issue they bought on themselves. If they knew BRD was going to take longer to develop (which they must have suspected given the scope of it), they should have set a higher price for the bundle.
My problem with the pricing is the quality of the DLC in the first place. Yes the trains are usually well done but the sound and especially the lighting are really lacking imo. The lighting at the Cathcart stations were embarrassing to be honest. And the sound, if it isn't done by AP then it can be hit or miss and so quiet imo.
I think the game is missing a mode to make all the a->b routes more enjoyable, like my suggested, and patent waitng (LOL), career mode just for something different.
I would like to see a career mode in tsw2 too. That would be cool
I don't think it obscures it, I think it answers it. To escape the rut, higher pricing is necessary.
A nice sentiment, but not a solution. "Attitude" and "want to" don't replace cold hard numbers.
But a different attitude from the bean counters could increase sales
Excellent post, I agree. I am new to train sims and have spent about 100 hours in TSW2, however I have been played a lot of TS2021 lately because of the longer routes and greater variety. What attracted me to train sims in the first place was watching a a video of someone doing the Los Angeles to San Diego route, which I have ridden before - I was amazed that the entire route was modeled to scale. I've lost hope of anything like that becoming available on TSW2.
I don't really have an answer - raising the price will simply make the product more niche - it already gets a lot of sideways glances from normal gamers who are wary of expensive DLC. It's a rough spot for DTG and I don't envy them.
DTG has said on more than one occasion that higher prices will not improve the quality of the product. However, that has been somewhat contradicted by Rush Hour which apparently could not be completed to the requisite standard without a price hike.
Personally, I'd rather have a modest price increase than see the compromises that were alluded to on stream or cutbacks like the Dresden Drama.
Run8 gets you in other ways! The game comes with "Run8" livery, you have to buy the others. Until you buy all the Amtrak DLC for example Amtrak trains look like container freights. While I love Run8 they've not done anything since 2019. They're not cheaper than DTG. Not by a long way. Often you need to buy four or five packs to get a fully liveried train so that one trainset might cost you USD$100.
In Run 8 a route (or sub as they call them) is usually USD$40, a branch line is usually USD$20
Run 8 base game USD $50
Lone Pine USD$20
San Bernadino USD$40
Arvin & Oak Creek USD$40
Cajon Sub USD$40
Then you come to the liveried things you need to run so you don't just see everything branded as Run8 same colour container trains...
Amtrak 1 USD$20
(note you need BOTH)
SD70ACE USD$20 - just skins the loco is in the base game
Pellet Cars USD$10
SD45 Pack 1 USD$20
SD45 Pack 2 USD$20
SD40-2 Pack 1 USD$20
SD40-2 Pack 2 USD$20
SD40-2 Pack 3 USD$20
SD40-2 Pack 4 USD$20
SD40-2 Pack 5 USD$20
Until the save and load bugs are resolved, I guess there is a point to having 25 minute scenarios or timetable runs as these can generally be finished in one setting.
Also personally I have no issue with shorter routes provided they are interesting, maybe have some sort of network operation and can sustain your interest beyond a couple of A to B and back again runs. I know from my own involvement with the other sims, building a long route can become extremely onerous and tedious, takes away all your time, regardless of whether you’re getting paid or not.
Good points about Run 8 Paul. I now own most of the content apart from a couple of the Western route sections and the Florida routes. However that massive track mileage comes at the price of most of the the mileage looking really basic as regards scenery and detail, even downtown LA. While the industry sub game is interesting, there is little to do other than drive from A to B and having to do your own despatching becomes a right royal PITA. I burned out on it a few months ago and haven’t been back.
Now Derail Valley, there’s a brilliant, if still slightly flawed, concept for a train game. Contained area but diverse network and a purpose to running the trains,
Star Train Citizen Simulator
Maybe DTC should launch a Kickstater to employ more people to develop the DLC they announced.
Unfortunately, the money isn´t always the solution
I personally don't believe the price hike will improve quality. I think it's just that they needed the extra funds because they ran over budget. A company says that a price hike will not improve quality and now it all of a sudden will. I don't believe that for a second especially considering dtg's recent track record.
I had thought at one time that I might get thrun 8, but seeing the prices and the fact they are in US$ made me think for about for a bit. Then I watched someone who streamed it playing in a group, and he mentioned it was a very expensive hobby having spent something in the neighbourhood of $3,000 + US. Then that basically told me not worth it.
I hate to think what I've spent over the years on Run8, TSW2, TS2020, TS, Trainz, World of Subways, etc. Each spend is generally the price of a couple of pints and train simulators don't make me fatter so its a win win really. However if you add it up it gets scary.
In some ways its like the various subscriptions I've got Adobe, Netflix, Google One, and a few others - each month each one of them is a pittance but if you add it up you get scared and start cancelling things.
I have a rough idea of what I have spent on TS21 and TSW and yes I agree it can be scary. But if it's something you like doing then it all becomes worth the cost.
Yes, when I add up the thousands of dollars I've spent on train simulators in the past 20 years and then add in all the hardware upgrades I might not have bought otherwise, like a big 4k display pretty much to play trains on, it does seem like a money pit. But then I think of other hobbies - photography, model railways etc. - and it falls into perspective. And you can't take it with you.
I think the overall pricing strategy is flawed.
When I see a base game that comes with 3 routes and x locos for £24.99, it confuses me and puts me off the thought of buying a new DLC that costs the same!
The base game would do better at £29.99 (maybe even £34.99), but then the follow up new DLC routes at say £19.99 and keep locos at £14.99. I think these prices would draw in much more new users AND current fan base would be more likely to tolerate and forgive the bug reporting/beta testing after release.
...DTG, are you reading and Hearing this?
Be careful what you wish for... Not exactly Kickstarter, but a lot of us bought into Flight Sim World as early access and look where DTG ended up putting that - the digital wasteland.
There might be less complaints because the DLC is cheaper, and customers shouldn't expect as much for less expensive products.
But the quality issue is important. People want better routes, not inferior routes.
I just have no idea how management/bean counters could achieve that.
Hoping DTG can deliver better routes at launch, to avoid incidents like removing Dresden branches.
DTG needs a wealthy patron to pay for the additional costs involved to deliver the original Dresden.
(I had thought about suggesting a Dresden kickstarter, but it doesn't solve the general problem that Matt and devs are apparently time/budget-constrained by higher-ups and have to write off their original hopes for a route.)
I hope in the future that DTG never promises a seasonal delivery timeframe for anything. Having to deliver 3 routes for this Summer was apparently unattainable, yet still caused removal of the Dresden branches.
On the risk of going a bit OT: Have you taken a look at Open Rails yet? I know that at least one of those two routes, Zbyněk Šemora's Bratislava-Praha route, works very well in it and looks tons better than it ever did in good ole MSTS. Don't know about Trat' 321 because I don't have it, but I can't think of any reason why it shouldn't run in ORTS either. On msts.cz you can find a dedicated corner for ORTS-specific activities, including some 24 hour real-world timetables for BP using ORTS's amazing timetable system but I don't know if these still work with the latest BP.
I know about OR, but haven't tried it. Once I get a new PC I have a plan to try it, at least with the route from Mr. Šemora. 321 should work as well.
But back on topic - Train Sim World
The solution would be to give the developers more time if they need it. Trouble with the bean counters is that they only see the cash there has to be balance. Giving the extra time for the German route would make sense as it would guarantee extra sales for the German market and if left as is I would presume less sales as fewer will buy it.
They have presumably decided that overall not many people will never buy it just because the branches aren't there.
I think that’s true primarily because it comes in a bundle that’s cheaper than buying the two US and UK routes separately. Refusing to buy it costs us more.
(Writing this as a fan of German routes, who will still find ways to enjoy Dresden even if the branches aren’t there.)
Refusing to buy the bundles or single routes will cost you nowt. You will still get the RH update. DTG know of your and the communities disappointment in cutting the branches and if that is enough for you then OK, if not just don't buy the routes.
Pricing is a bit...complicated, honestly. I'm sure DTG worked out these prices for a reason. Not always clear what reason, but they had to be signed off somehow.
Plus, train simulation is a very niche gaming genre. It's rare to find anybody interested when they hear about TSW. People I'm friends with know I play the game often. They are interested to hear me talk about it...but they'd never play it for themselves. Unless it was available as a demo, they'd probably never even click on it, let alone buy it.
I do wonder why DTG haven't created a demo version of the game. I feel like that would draw in more new players. After all, playing the game is very different from watching someone else play it.
I think the £19.99 for a route is fine...though the £14.99 would put me off. That implies the train is worth more than the route that sustains it, looking at the price tag. Two locos for £14.99, though? That'd be more appealing.
But when it comes to content, I think DTG could find other ways of securing more funding for their projects. It'd mean doing more work and trying new things...but business is fraught with risks, regardless.
If DTG wanted to get funds in and at the same time introduce much more varied content to TSW2 they could introduce a 'Creation Club' like Bethesda did to games like Fallout 4. Not saying everyone was happy with this cause they weren't but for TSW2 it could work if they have a will to do it.
Basically it is mods, but paid for mods where Bethesda took a cut and it was fully implemented into the game. Obviously this would mean modders would need the tools but DTG could still have an element of control if they wanted to. And in Bethesda's case it didn't stop Bethesda themselves from doing anything. One downside was that there were a lot of duplicates on the Nexus (big modding site) that were available for free but this could be overcome if DTG wanted to. I cannot see DTG doing this however.
Similar to this, working with AP and other developers to sell enhancement packs for TSW 2. Some locos are in dire need of them. Not mentioning any names XD
The point is that people are going to buy the route (in the bundle) because to not buy it costs them more for the other two routes. There will be no reduced sales figures for it because it is in a bundle with two other routes. Hardly anyone is going to boycott all three routes because one route has been cut down a bit. I could be absolutely livid about the branches being cut and not want to have anything to do with that route as a protest but I’m not going to miss out on the other two routes because of it. To buy those other routes individually would cost £50 but getting all three costs £35, and I’m not paying an extra £15 to try and make a point. Because I’m not daft.
Once the bundle offer disappears and they are all just offered at single route prices, all this will have blown over, and people will just buy what they are interested in anyway.
——————————As for a Kickstarter for the branches, no way. Kickstarter is for the hundreds of plaid clad beards in their late twenties who all think they have reinvented the backpack or or those who have made a coffee cup that connects to a phone app. I won’t have anything to do with it. If the bank manager said no, it’s because your product idea is rubbish. “It’s not a viable business, I cannae invest, I’m oot.”
I think many German players only buy German routes and a boycott will make total sense. I myself only want one of the routes and not going to rush and buy it. Question is, is there enough German players to make a boycott to get DTG's attention? I have no idea but time will tell.
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