Since the TOPS system was introduced, there has been around 300 classes of locomotive or multiple unit on the BR network. If you consider an average of two sub-classes per class, and about five liveries on average during its lifetime, that is, at a very rough estimate, 3,000 trains that could be added to TSW - and that's before you consider pre-TOPS trains, carriages and wagons, and of course you can multiply this by the other countries in the game. This is a problem - with the release schedule of around 1 route a month, usually with 1 new train, and about half that many rolling stock DLCs, it will take about 1,000 years to complete the full range of trains. I'[m obviously not suggesting that having every train is a realistic request or an achievable aim, but at this rate, getting even a small proportion of that - just enough to make the routes we have complete, let alone new ones, will exceed our lifetimes. And when you have a game that is so good, and can be so immersive, and has the incredible innovation that is timetable mode, it feels like a lot of wasted potential. Let's clarify a few things. I know that creating trains is not easy - it is not something I can do. I know that even creating liveries requires a high level of skill. I know that there are issues with access, with licensing, with recordings. I know that different liveries and subclasses often require changes to the interior, or the cab, or the physics. But given how much money a lot of us have put into the game, I think we could be getting more. I don't understand, for example, why BR locos like the 20, 31 and 37 don't come in so many more liveries. I don't understand why it's the same EWS 66 90% of the time, when you a) could paint in other DB liveries, b) have some other licenses, c) could make eg an EWS 37 I don't understand why locos like the DB 111 and 218 don't come in older livery variations so that they can appear on Linke Rheinstrecke and Niddertalbahn I don't understand why you haven't taken an opportunity to include some extra liveries with the expert DB 101. I don't understand why ubiquitous trains like the HST or the 150 have been in the game for years yet we have so few variations. I don't understand why we don't see sub-classes of units, even when those subclasses are just a different number of vehicles. I don't understand why you don't provide plain traffic red versions of DB units, so that when they layer in else where it doesn't say "Franken-Sachsen-Express". I know there is creators club. And that is a great thing - the people who contribute to it do amazing work. But the tool has limitations - both in terms of what can be created, but more importantly, how it can be used - they can't be added to new timetables, and nor can their appearances in existing ones be effectively managed. And credit where it's due, there have been times when the releases have been more promising. The Europheonix 37 and white 375 is an example of a gameplay pack that adds variation. The multiple liveries in Blackpool branches really enhance the route. The Red DB 628 was a nice touch. These are examples of what can, and should be done. My suggestions to DTG would be: 1. Focus on rolling stock over routes for a while 2. With new routes, break from the 1 train per route pattern, even if that's 1 new train and 1 repaint (ideally more obvs) 3. Provide more liveries when releasing trains 4. Include more repaints in gameplay packs All of this would help us to build our collections, make better use of them, and make the game more immersive and increase replayability.
I agree, DTG often does very well with the rolling stock so I wouldnt mind more Loco add-ons. There are alot of routes that could really use them. I've always thought having a loco pack would be a good idea. 3 new loco's (EMU''s, DMU's, Electric, diesel or steam whatever) for the price of a route to add on to an existing route. For example. SEHS loco pack with class 376, 707 and 73 and maybe some variants for the existing ones. I think the playerbase would like that as proper expansion pack for the routes they enjoy
Fully in agreement with this concept. I know there will be existing limitations for busier routes such as SEHS and BML that would prevent it, but wherever there is space for this kind of variety pack on other routes, personally I would pay a premium for it.
I can see why they don't. Look at LIRR2, people complained that two similar looking trains which do the same thing were included in the route.
Licensing isn't just an issue it's a show stopper. The modern day crowd crave stuff that hasn't got a chance of getting made as the companies concerned won't provide a licence. Its frustrating yes but that's the way it is. SEHS is one of the better routes but still lacks Eurostar which is a shame as it would fill up the High Speed section. The easiest from a licensed point of view appears to be British Rail era stuff but that doesn't sell apparently.
More liveries for trains is something I’d like to see more of. Even if it’s an older livery that wouldn’t fit in the modern timetable, it could still be used in some sort of scenario.
Gotta agree here. While I always enjoy getting a new route (if it's done well), more diversity in rolling stock and liveries would really bring those routes to life! Just as an example, think of Linke Rheinstrecke. Mainz Hbf is nice as it is, but would REALLY come to life with some 140's and 150's hauling freight, a cream/blue 218 pulling a bunch of classic metallic n-Wagen towards Saarbrücken while a 335 rearranges some IC cabs in the background, to be picked up by a 120 later, just as a commuter train from Frankfurt pulled by a cream/blue 111 arrives
I have gone back to Zusi for my German stuff. Putting aside the graphics and sound it's spot on for variety and operational realism. No point in hoping for a 140 in TSW, even if one was made it would take ages to be produced.
Probably true, which is a shame. The groundwork is already done, with the 110, so I presume getting a 140 into the game would be easier and quicker than having to build something completely from scratch, like a 151 or 120 for example. Considering on just how many of the existing routes a 140 would be a suitable addition for freight hauling (and even passenger services in LFR's case) I consider it one of TSW's biggest missed opportunities.
Was that the majority? People will complain about everything, you need to judge them on their merits. The fact is, LIRR has similar looking trains - it's not uncommon on railways - and I think the addon was well-received.
Although there's always scope for more, German routes are generally very good for variety. With Linke Rheinstrecke they missed a trick by not setting it a few years later - 103s were still around, and you had a mixture of the older liveries and the new traffic red, which meant they could have deployed more existing stock like the 155.
That's one of the main reasons why I enjoy Linke Rheinstrecke so much... we already have 155's hauling freight and 101's pulling white/red IC's on basically any other electrified German route, so it's actually refreshing to NOT have them here too. But I can also see the reasons behind why we got such a limited amount of rolling stock there... essentially it's still a niche setting, and wouldn't be very cost effective to sink loads of time and money into building a vast amount of rolling stock just for this one route. Perhaps some day, perhaps... *starts daydreaming*
We are still waiting for Mark One catering and sleeping cars or even official reskins into blue and grey livery. I can’t believe DTG don’t have the resources to tackle something like that, or is it once again the mythical Tony Soprano figure in the back room calling the shots - you will have 50 people doing marketing, 2 doing route building and one part time employee on trains.
Purely speculating and playing devil's advocate for a second too - I imagine that these loco packs could prove to be a double-edged sword. Take Scotland for example: we could have a lovely 'Glasgow Suburban Loco Pack' containing a 318, 320 and 334, which could all find homes on sections in our existing route libraries one way or another, but then that's three further locos released without routes to go with them, which would bring DTG another step closer to the issue of how to market and price certain routes when all of the relevant rolling stock options to accompany them already exist in the game with no others left to create. Like I said earlier, I'm very much a fan of loco packs - the more liveries, subclasses and stock the better (and that's where I would/will shell out every time), but I can also see something like that causing DTG a headache sooner down the line and therefore being less of a priority to consider.
AFAIK it takes a lot of time to build a new loco compared to modifying an existing loco into a different configuration, hence why they have used the terms "new build" and "part build" when referring to rolling stock in the past. I think we're unlikely to get multiple new locos in a single pack, especially as we seemingly struggle to get more than one new loco with a route nowadays. What we could do with however, which also seems more plausible, are more "part build" loco packs like we have seen with the Europhoenix Class 37 in the past. These can pose their own challenges - not always being a simple reskin but sometimes requiring era-specific remodelling of the exterior and especially the cab for equipment added and removed over the loco's life. Some examples of additional rolling stock we could have made from locos already in-game could include: -Class 142 in a modern day configuration in ex-Northern rail livery for Rose Hill Marple services on Glossop Line. -Class 170 in WMR livery for Hereford/Worcester semi-fast services on Birmingham Cross-City. -Class 45 with vacuum brakes and a Class 101 in BR Green for Peak Forest. As others have pointed out there's lots of other combinations like these - at least they suffice if we can't have new loco instead.
Generally speaking, i hope for more Loco DLCs. Sure, having more and interesting routes is a great thing. But then only driving one train on it takes the fun out of it. That's why I love playing on DRA: You see a LOT of different trains. So I'd be happy to have more loco DLCs and i am actually excited that on the roadmap there is one loco DLC by DTG, 4 upcoming loco DLCs by TSG (218, 101Ex, 232, 420) and the SimTrack loco. Great News!
To be fair, I don’t think you’d even need to go that far to get a good result. Just a 140 for freight and regional would already improve things a lot. If TSG end up releasing a backdated 218 later down the line (like the traffic red 628 that came later) to fill out the Bad Kreuznach/Saarbrücken traffic, we’d already be there mostly for a somewhat accurate rolling stock selection. Though obviously, a lot more like the 141 would be needed if we’re aiming for DRA levels.
Of course, I was exaggerating a little. But you're right, a period-accurate 218 and a 140 would do wonders to liven up that route. Large boost in variety achieved by comparatively little effort, so to speak
I don't think a BR 140 is *that* unlikely. At the end of the day, you can base the model on the 110. So it saves a lot of effort. I think at some point we'll have a 140 in tsw.
I didn’t see any complaints about the LIRR2.0 stock. I don’t see why people would complain about rolling stock included in a route that operates over it IRL.
Notwithstanding my personal affection for the 140, she would truly be a boon for TSW. LFR would obviously benefit a lot from a 140 but even other routes would. In traffic red, she would certainly fit in on semi-vintage routes like RSN and Rosenheim-Salzburg. Even on modern routes, she’s still seen though in colours of private EVUs.
More people would of wanted the DE30AC/DM30AC over the M9 due to not being another EMU. However, MTA's unwillingness to allow access to equipment means that the EMU was gonna be the logical choice over the EMD units since you can still access the M9 as a passenger and get references that way.
as much as how bad of an idea gameplay packs are. They should've used this opportunity to actually give us more trains in different routes just like now in fact. We got the Class 380 and 158 coming soon as an example. And i think one is very popular discussed on this fourm and among UK TSW fans is Class 91 and Mk4 plus DVT for ECML. I bet that will set like hot cakes if its ever being sold as a add on/part of a gameplay pack.
That wouldn't count as a gameplay pack. Any new train would be a loco dlc which would be more expensive and time consuming. Gameplay packs are something that can be done in a quicker timeframe to add scenarios, a new variant of some sort (coach, freight wagons, different livery, services, etc). Different from a loco dlc
Could argue gameplay pack = cash grab… Nothing new, used to happen with MSTS where people made a few activities and charged for them.
That's what kind of happened with HIS on TSC with the Scenario Packs. New scenarios but no new content. (Worth noting HIS also did some free scenarios via the Steam Workshop, so.)
The issue with the BR-era content (and, for the sake of it being the same rolling stock - WSR) isn't the era I don't think, it's the experience. The trains can be hard to manage - especially on a route like NTP - and, while that's an issue of skill, it can be a put-off for more casual players. They're all TSW2020 or TSW2, apart from West Cornwall and Peak Forest. WCL is quite a poorly-made route and Peak Forest lacks diesel - so only those who understand/like Steam can use it, for now. Blackpool and the remastered WSR are definitely better-liked because they're actually made well. I imagine that, if the 104 is good, then PFR will join that list.
Totally agree with the OP. New locomotive dlc is very sparse when you consider how many developers are now involved with TSW. More frequent releases would really improve upon what we already have vastly.
Well you could get round that by putting in some more of the early Sprinter types - a proper Class 150, 155 (later 153) and 156 plus similar era pre privatisation EMU’s. Not exactly one handled but simple enough for those seeking a less complex experience. While I would prefer to see it in the Class 33 or 50 era, you could get away with p/o Waterloo to Exeter using a Class 159.
Ah ah, i forgot what was a packed called where the europhoenix 37 and old southeastern livery 375 was included. But yea i was hoping to say something similar to that but just pack a class 91 and mk4 in there.
It would be great if we got the DE30AC/DM30AC locomotives along with the C3 bilevels. I am curious how DTG can get access to the EMD F125 but not the EMD DE30AC/DM30AC? Is it the MTA that is restricting access? The LIRR diesels are a highly requested that would run great on LIRR 2.0
DTG tell us that they’ll use the trips they take to get as much stuff as they can (usually recordings for other trains) from as many trains that can get as access to. If they’ve not got anything on the DE30AC or DM30AC I’ll bet it’s because they weren’t given permission to access them by MTA
Different operators and different rules. Not every single operator is identical. Metrolink was extremely welcoming to dtg. From what I've read from Matt, they created a nonrevenue service just for dtg. Mta allows none of that. They give no access to locomotives and don't allow any sound recording sessions or photographing. They just allow branding and dtg have to get the rest on their own. Considering all the changes mta forced dtg to make and their restrictions, the chances of the dm30 happening are low to none
That’s probably because MTA done have the stock sitting around or an operator to activate the train. Also MTA routes are busy you need a path to operate a train on. None of that is easily achievable. As for the restrictions on the train I imagine London Underground done the same and put restrictions in place with the license ie the front cab M door not being able to open.
This is absolutely the case. Take ScotRail for example. They are super friendly and open to licensing agreements, even inviting DTG and 3rd parties into cabs and offering cab-ride videos to help them develop routes. For this reason we have nearly every ScotRail vehicle in the game (we're missing just the 320, 156, I7C & 334) at this point. Whereas difficult companies to work with, such as South Western Railway see absolutely no route or loco development. It's the same reason we have literally only got the EWS 66 for freight, lots of 3rd parties have tried to develop other content, such as GBRf and Freightliner stock (like 70s and 68s), but the companies who own almost all of these models refuse to let the devs see inside cabs or have licensing rights to the branding. It really holds the game back and it's a real shame to see.
Yeah I can’t stand when people say something in the game is “boring”, when in reality it’s just being represented as is. NYC has had all silver trains for a long time now. I think they look good. Reminds me of the old American Airlines livery. Trains are utilitarian. In some regions they do look really good, but at the end of the day they’re not here for their looks. I guess it just comes down to what someone wants out of the experience.
Yeah they stated they didn’t want people walking down the tunnels as part of the London Underground license agreement.
Yeah, I don't understand the pessimism here - "people don't want trains that are hard to drive, they just want 1 lever locos". So why are we about to see an old German diesel and an expert level electric loco? Maybe modern EMU stuff is more popular, but there's room for a range of addons - always has been. The more successful stuff can, to an extent, pay for the bits which sell less well. A Train Simulator has to be a labour of love to some extent, it has to fill niches. If it's just about what makes the most money then there are easier types of game to make.
Agreed- I would have preferred it be set ca 1990, with a nice mix of orient red/Produktfarben and blue/ivory
I love all the variety in TSW and I think each type of vehicle comes with its own challenges. I agree that I’ve observed some pessimism when it comes to EMUs. I think “one lever locos” are pretty cool when you consider all the engineering that goes into controlling a several hundred ton vehicle smoothly with just one lever. I find the “one lever” routes to have their own unique challenges.. keeping time, smoothly making the stops without feathering the brake, not grinding to a halt at the platform end. The train is easier to drive, but the rest of the job is more challenging in that situation. Just my two cents. (Strictly speaking in terms of the sim here)
Well that's exactly the point - Train Sim has room for so many different experiences. I like driving an electrostar, I like driving a loco. Railways are great.
Very much agreed, some valid points. However, I'd add a fifth suggestion to your list: 5. Provide an occasional timetable update so newer loco DLC can be finally added to the timetable mode for some older routes Currently, my main frustration with TSW is there are already so many great routes, however they become so quickly out-of-date when newer loco DLC is not added to them. For example, there's quite a few German routes completely missing ICE/IC services etc. Plus, apart from having more variation, older routes would become more busier too etc.
Completely agree on point 5 - in fact I'd make it a key part of the process. The timetable is such an important part of TSW, and there's so much potential like the examples you cite. Here's my suggestion: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/timetable-crew.60627/
