The Problem With Rivet

I like many others on here was left shocked by the Frankly embarrassing attempt at a route that was shown off last night. I have a very simple question i would like an answer for and that is simply why? Why would a company want to show off something as unfinished and thrown together looking as Rivets Fife Circle and expect people to want to pay good money for?

Why wasn't the correct build shown last night? And if that was the build that will be shipping who signed it off as being of acceptable quality for paying customers?

Why is "no" the answer Rivet give to everything that's missing from the route an example being the lack of aircraft at Edinburgh airport? I believe from memory Jasper said I was down to performance issues, how is that acceptable in an area as Barron and empty as that section? If you can't get something as basic looking as that to run at 60fps in 2024 you shouldn't be in the business in the first place. Let's not forget we had aircraft coming and going from Gatwick on London commuter in a much more detailed area then that.

Why did DTG allow Rivet to take this DLC off there hands knowing it would have been so highly anticipated in the player base and knowing Rivets poor history with UK based routes.

And finally why should we trust a developer who were happy with the mess they left the EDI-GLA route? All the signs point to the fact that this will be released in an unfinished and unacceptable stage and that's how It will remain.

I actually feel sorry for Scotrail in a way , they are being represented in this game with three routes and only one of them is any good, the rubbish scenario is actually a perfect metaphor for this route......so I challenge DTG or Rivet or both to delay this and fix it by doing so you might redeem yourselves somewhat if not well we know for sure then what you think of us the players and your game.

 

Oh geez, it's actually THAT bad?

 

Watch the stream…

 

Since this was still a development build, noted as "Test 2" when it was run. I do have some hope that by next Tuesday it will be better.

 

I also feel bad for Scotrail, I’ve seen them do some promotion for the route on Twitter and knowing how bad the reaction has been is disappointing, I hope they’re too busy to notice or care

 

hopefully stuff like this doesn’t have repercussions on licensing, it’s not the first time this has happened, QA seems pretty non existent or may aswell be if it was used.

 

I very much doubt it will

 

why I hope it won’t ?

or why it could ?

 

Don't let them see the brilliant goblin line that has just realised which looks superb.

What I cannot stop thinking about is dovetail run this franchise they will sign off this why on earth knowing how it looks would they think the playerbase would be happy? Surely someone would say hang on this is not upto spec compaired to our last two releases.

 

I was having two conversations while typing that

 

This is exactly it. Rivet may be the developer but DTG are still publishing it through their own stores on the various platforms. Not like TSC where every Tom, Richard or Harry can set up an e-store and put out payware with no oversight. IMHO the buck stops with DTG and I hate to say it, the EP for going ahead and sanctioning this for release. Unless the finished product is miraculously transformed from what was shown on stream, which I highly doubt anyway, still not of acceptable quality for £30.

 

I don’t think this route even warrants being assessed for a cost. It straight up fails at meeting TSW 4 standards, let alone matching the average DLC cost.

This is the same as Maintalbahn IMO, looks like it was made for TSW 2.

 

Hey folks - hope you‘ve seen our statement, but if no, here you go: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/an-update-on-the-fife-circle-line.79952/

Besides the things adressed in our update and not having airplanes at the airport (which I explained in detail why AND said that we‘re trying to bring them back), what exactly is off? Please be more specific with your feedback.

Personal Opinion (not Rivet related): Oh and these „I can make something better“ comments are always funny. But I get it, not everyone can understand the effort that goes into something even remotely close to this.

 

Can you also confirm if Haymarket depot will be populated with some stock(it’s pretty much never empty) as well as adding in depot moves please?

 

Im going to leave the scenery out of this, since someone is likely already compiling a full slideshow of what the issues are there - it’s abit frightening you need them pointed out though, if I’m honest.

I’ll focus on life within the route.

Firstly, what has gone wrong with the timetable? Yes you have said you’re adding something in the order of 40 services for the 170, but why have they been left as an ‘add them later’ project?

ECS moves? Haymarket Depot is the home of Scotrails 170 fleet, why was it deemed ok to completely ignore it? Taking it up a notch, the depot is barren but someone genuinely thought the tram depot being populated was more important?

Waverley/Haymarket - There are 385 services in your own E2G route which have been left out here, why? There should be a constant flow of 170/385 services in and out of Edinburgh.

RHTT runs, freight, rail tours, steam services, your own brand new engineering pack were all left out. Why?

Im not wanting to be harsh, I do feel for you having to take the brunt of the current storm, but what we were shown was so incredibly disappointing.

 

Why somebody would show up to a public presentation with anything else than it´s best version of the product is a mystery to me.
Serious people with real intentions to purchase are put off by the fails.

Remember when Elon showed off the Cybertruck and said it has bulletproof windows but they shattered?
Maybe it´s the spring astheny, I feel it too.

 

Alot of places have very bad foliage, lacking grass and just look very flat. you can see the edges of the world pretty close by in some spots. I suggest taking a good hard look at the route and just fully populate it with foliage and detail instead of having large open areas taken up by one ugly grass texture. Some variety in grass colour would be nice too

 

I would like to start by saying nobody (I hope) blames the developers for this mess, my concerns are about the management at Rivet Games and that the devs are not given enough time to flesh out the route properly.

So first off the scenery is below par and is not TSW4 standard, notice the fields full of nothing, repeating textures and the beach at Kinghorn looking more like mud then sand.


Next up is the ballast, Rivet has been using this same brown-coloured ballast since WCL and it's not nice to look at. Compare it with the ones that DTG or Just Trains use and the difference is night and day.


In regards to the timetable, while I appreciate you're adding additional services there are still tons of ECS and Freight moves not present.

Finally the on-train PIS for the Class 170 is inaccurate.

 

In regards there is absolutely no freight on this route in real life unless it's a network rail train or something related to engineering equipment moves

 

I realise you might be frustrated by the backlash, but really? That's no way for a representative of any company to speak to it's potential customers.

I get effort - there are people; modders (without even the full suite of tools), and some employees who put in so much work in their own time. I've had people ask if I am buying this route to provide an EP. The answer is no! I've done it for some older TSW2 routes, but FCL is a 2024 route and as such should look like it has been built in UE4, and not Roblox. Texturing, ground materials, foliage need replacing. There's no variation in any of the assets. If those were improved, it'd look so much better.

The 170 however, though looks great and performs as I'd expect, but no way will I get this DLC just for the train.

 

I have decided too, that I will only buy the DLC once significant improvements have been made and that actually affects the entire landscape design and its scenery including buildings.

 

I mean, this picture speaks for itself about what is off. But even more so, why aren't the already existing higher quality assets present in other routes being used? TSW looking like this in 2024 isn't acceptable, at all.


The same is true for the timetable, I'm assuming the missing services on the line are reserved for the 158, which is fine. But why does it not include ECS moves to the Haymarket Depot? I've made my own timetables, I know how much effort it takes to make them, that doesn't mean these should be omitted in a paid product..

 

Any experienced route builder with a bit of pride in their work would have taken one look at that and decided, no that's not the picture I'm trying to paint. And yes I have built routes myself in years gone by for other sims. Sometimes you do cut the odd corner, end up with the odd house partly sunk in the terrain, but not right next to the track and not even a garden fence or hedge in sight. Plonking buildings down on bare terrain with no detail around them was something we did fore freeware MSTS over 20 years ago and should not be acceptable in a 2024 retail product.

All I can think is the route was built by someone with little or no knowledge of the processes involved to achieve realistic looking surroundings or to throw back unacceptable 3D modelling at the author. You would almost think the route build was outsourced to a low cost consultancy with no real knowledge of the subject, simply working to maps and aerial views.

So far as Jasper's statement is concerned, I'm staggered he even needs to be told what is wrong with the route and with all due respect this mirrors exactly what was said about all the other sub par products from the company, most of which have never been fixed.

 

Like the RHTT

 

Thank you for the update and the video with the announcements. I think the problem is having seen what can be achieved with Blackpool Branches and Goblin Line, the scenery looks very basic. This was an issue with WCL and this has never been addressed (apart from the far improved St Michaels Mount and Truro Cathedral). To be fair though, IOW, particularly the revamped version was superb.

You say you have addressed some of the issues such as close buildings. Fair enough but I will reserve judgement until I have seen some third party videos from e.g. Megasim before deciding whether to purchase this, partcularly since I am Xbox user and you say the improvements may not be in the initial release.

You did do a great job with the Forth Bridge though.

 

Yeah RHTT as an example that kind of stuff

 

It's a route that generates mixed feelings. It seems to have started well, only to then get lost in what should be the true heart of the circle. Poor assets, flat grass and foliage, questionable textures and models. The 170 is fine for me. Oh I forgot! The time table! Half the services are missing .

 

Not only that, the headlights and center light are also very different

 

C'mon Jasper stop trying to act like you can't see what's off the whole thing bar the bridge is off.....it's like they spent all their time on one aspect of the the route and completely neglected the rest of it , I've seen better looking houses and vegetation on mobile games.

 

This is an extremely unprofessional way to address your customers. Many of those in the community do fully understand the effort required to make a route as exemplified by the release of the PC editor and the many mods and enhancements packs that the community have released. And even if some don’t understand the effort required, anybody can look at the Goblin dlc that released last week and clearly see that Fife circle looks like rubbish in comparison.

It's quite obvious the development of Fife circle was either rushed and/or little effort was put into the timetable and scenery. And if it’s true that the Rivet team did put all their effort into the route, then, with all due respect, Rivet doesn’t know how to develop in TSW. First time developers like TSG and JT delivered fabulous first routes for TSW. There's no excuse for Rivet to be releasing a route in this state considering their years of experience in TSW development.

 

Pretty much every single time there is a preview stream with issues/bugs, I tell myself the same thing. And sure enough, every single time, release day comes and it shows up with the exact same problems it had in the preview.

So then the next question is, how long will the issues take to actually be fixed. Its hit and miss. DTG sometimes fixes things almost immediately, but then leaves other issues 6 months to a year before they get fixed (if ever).

Skyhook, IMO, has impressed lately. The MML route had some issues (although nothing terrible) at launch, but since then they've done a pretty great job at not only fixing bugs but also adding improvements and polish in general. They have earned a new reputation. In fact, the fact that a Skyhook 158 is coming to this new route may be a redeeming factor.

Rivet, I can't comment on. I have not bought any of their routes since the IoW 2022 (which I liked) so I can only go by what is mentioned on the forums.

 

issues of deadlines shining bright

 

What a shocking way to speak to your customers. We are your business, without us you will have to shut up shop. That is a really poor statement to make on a sort of "apology" post. Just shows how much you care in my eyes. Many companies you would almost definitely be in serious trouble, at my old job if you put the company in a bad light on social media it was instant dismissal.

Your frustrated, I get it but at the same time it's not like trolls are just posting rubbish it is literally the whole community disappointed in your DLC. If you released this route in the same kind of state as the new overground route or Blackpool line you would be getting praise just as dovetail and just trains have. But you must know how people feel and frankly are you even going to fix any of the issues? If you read around nobody trusts rivet to fix anything. I am still waiting the 150 fix which was promised 3 years ago.

 

Above all, this statement is one thing: Quite condescending towards the paying customers and large parts of the modders who making bad DLC better in the end, and that after delivering such an inferior product. It shows a certain contempt for the community, which doesn't just offer praise or slight criticism. Sorry.

We are not here to criticize small things that could be neglected. A missing trash can here, a floating object or an unhung PIS there, it doesn't matter! Or that a few trolls want to badmouth the thing. No, it's about very basic things like a very poorly designed track in the beta state that shouldn't have been shown and published at all.

What did you expect Rivet? That after this stream you believed that everything would be okay again? No, what we saw will happen in almost all parts, I'm sure. In order to really make FCL better, a complete overhaul of the entire route is required and I hardly believe that this can and will be achieved. Even if Rivet were to tackle this, it would take weeks, even months.

The fact that they are sticking with the publication despite everything tells me: Eat or die. The only right decision would have been to delay the DLC until it at least meets TSW4 standards. Why wasn't this done? Why were two GB DLC released so quickly after each other? I don't understand, it makes no sense, especially after the lucky Goblin.

 

I don’t imagine Rivet have a PR department, but they’d be seriously hacked off if an employee came out and spoke to their customer base like that.
Rivet, you’ve been rumbled, and let’s be honest it wasn’t hard to see the glaring inadequacies in the route-ballast, timetable, assets, to mention but a few things. To suggest we’re mostly ignorant to what goes into a route is frankly astonishing. Many of us have worked on routes in TSC, have modded on TSW or worked on other projects, and we know what’s acceptable and more importantly what’s not from a software release. This, is not acceptable in its current form.

 

Damn bros
We really got devsplained on

 

Actual footage of Rivet making the announcements for Fife Circle…

https://tenor.com/view/grease-announcement-lol-mc-gee-bell-gif-3830592

The announcements are terrible right? It’s not just me that thinks so, surely?

 

Happy to be corrected - but I believe Jasper is their community manager - which would be a "PR department" would it not?

 

If that's the case then that makes what he said even worse.

 

Reminds me of the launch of the xbox. Remember that one where all they spoke about was TV, and sports no gameplay and it completely tanked the xbox sales and ruined the generation essentially for the xbox after gaining ground with the 360 and to be honest it never really recovered. I think Rivet might have done this with this release, dovetail might have to be careful with all this negative publicity. First impressions mean a lot and I think this release will forever be tainted if (which I very much doubt) Rivet fix most the issues.

 

We know Rivet can make good content we've seen it. And people are frustrated because they want this to be good. Its a fantastic route choice and you have the platform to make something amazing.

You've got a whole routes worth of stock to create variability, fill the depots, create stock moves etc and then basically told people to do it themselves in free roam? When JT released BPO and that timetable with all of that variety they put the time and effort into getting it right they didn't just turn around and go "Free roam" and as a result we got IMO the best route we've ever had.

People are frustrated because it feels like Rivet have shown us a route that feels like its half finished and they've got a notorious history for not following up on their content so the community is quite right to be unhappy with the state of things.

I like many of the others want Rivet to get it right, we know that Rivet can do a fantastic job (2022 IOW, Berninaline) and have so much potential.

If you guys could take a leaf out of Skyhook (Adams still plugging away on the MML thread posting updates and checking bugs out) and JTs book just being a little more interactive on the feedback threads and show you're actively working on improving the content you've released it'd go a long way to repairing Rivets reputation.

 

Yes agree announcements sound disjointed and awful

 

From what I heard, Matt got the the wrong build. There was a later one with the fixes. On the contrary I saw yesterday that the TMS voice announcement for Alloa and Dumblane now are fixed. When they came, I don’t know. The were several updates, they didn’t mention this, though it probably came in one of them.

 

If it was your business, would you want to come prepared and present your product in the best way possible? It doesn't matter what has been issued after the stream, as the stream is required for us to get a first look, and make our decision by assessing said product.

 

In which case they should be working through the weekend and doing a new stream on Sunday or Monday to correct the error. Lackadaisical all round.

 

You're human so i get the frustration of seeing something your team has worked on being attacked, especially given some of the overly vicious comments being made (i dont condone them tbh, some people got carried away) but yeah I'd remove this if I were you.

Yeah I came to this conclusion too - time mismanagement or someone wasn't keeping up with the scenery/needs more people to handle it as it is a long route.

I'd be surprised if it was malicious, The fact we saw such low quality assets makes me think they were placeholder or WIP and we saw either a truly current unfinished WIP build or somehow DTG/Matt ended up with the wrong build.

There is very very strong murmurings of this.

I imagine they would have but Jasper and co are human and people make mistakes. Obviously this was a big one but clearly something went wrong or they just truly messed up.


Not defending them - more just giving some thoughts now that the smoke from the initial feedback has settled.

 

Supposedly brand ambassadors are getting updated builds or are getting the build that was meant to be on stream for Monday preview reviews. Not sure if they are getting the versions with the requested additions like a better timetable but apparently their versions have better scenery assets etc.

 

Not sure I entirely trust ambassadors getting a complimentary copy to give a completely unbiased report.

 

One of the UK ambassadors has already been vocal in that the DLC was boring to them, so I guess you'll need to see what they say when it releases.