The Roadmaps The Streams And The Updates

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by stujoy, Apr 6, 2021.

  1. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    During the live streams Adam discusses amongst other things a lot of things that he has fixed or added that have nothing to do with the current roadmap or the latest updates. There is then an awfully long wait for these things to be released. Things appear on the roadmap, are then completed and removed, and do not see the light of day in updates for months.

    Many people have been expecting the fixes to LIRR to come and even longer for some long finished Bakerloo improvements from before Christmas??? These have been discussed on the streams and removed from the roadmap as the work is completed. The update today has totally different stuff in it than people have been expecting from watching the streams or reading the roadmap. Can anyone follow it?

    There is often a big disconnect between the roadmap the stream and the update. It boggles my mind.
     
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  2. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    Stop whining.. now we have the German flag on the route selection menu for HRR...

    Joking aside, this is utterly ridicolous: updates announced months ago still not available, total lack of organisation.
     
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  3. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    Trying to be too clever by half sadly, keep the download size down is the stated reason and yet plenty of weeks with no updates and also why not have more than one update a week if stuff is ready to go out? Saving everything for themed update releases etc and as you say it just sits there unused while players are still frustrated by the lack of fixes in the meantime.

    Only reasonable explanation is that it hasn't passed QA or there is a bottleneck, with stuff queued up to go through QA. Something off eitherway.
     
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  4. dreampage

    dreampage Well-Known Member

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    I'm wondering what is up with the LIRR fixes. They have been working on them for so long, teased and detailed them so many times and they still aren't released. Meanwhile, Rapid Transit and MSB "preserved focus" is in production but can we expect the same long wait for them as well? What causes this? I wonder if the Preserved Collection team will ever catch up to the pace of the new content releases. Their work will never be done at this pace, what's more it will get worse and worse, the task of bugfixing getting bigger like a snowball. Then a new TSW release comes around and both we and they have to start over again? Or more and more content will be left behind in time? I'd like to see TSW as a reliable, unified platform but if there are so many bugs and fixing them takes so long I wonder how the future will look like. Right now I feel the bugfixing situation is just snowballing up in front of the developers.
     
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  5. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    Quite a few people predicted a no-win situation for DTG when the whole roadmap concept was announced and that seems to be coming to fruition.

    It's become a popular tool for many games, especially live service games or games that rely on a lot of post-launch DLC (like TSW2), but i've rarely seen one that doesn't become a bloated mess- which devs then try to pare down to something more manageable, which then sparks a backlash from people who liked the original version, etc, etc.

    Personally i think they should scrap the whole thing and post weekly articles/blog posts highlighting what's actively being worked on, with larger features for new route/loco announcements. SCS does this for ETS2/ATS and i think it works well.
     
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  6. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Part of what I posted is actually answered in the roadmap article today, which I think came out at around the same time I was posting. It’s not something I just happened upon today though, it’s been bugging me for weeks that Adam talks enthusiastically about fixes he’s done and then the fixes scurry underground for testing, scheduling and a long nap thrown in for good measure.

    I don’t have any answers as to what they should do by the way I just wanted to get it off my chest and see what others think too.
     
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  7. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    They should probably change the update policy a bit. Not wait to pack all route updates into one release, but if something is done and tested, put it into a "basket" and release all inside the basket on the same day as roadmap releases. It would be a hefty download, but we would always know the day it comes and could prepare. Roadmap+update day. The speed sign improvement for Bakerloo is sitting there like a dog in a shelter waiting to be adopted... in the cage next to it... ECW PIS...
     
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  8. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Well-Known Member

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    2022 updated
     
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  9. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I must admit I too am having a hard time understanding the relationship ( if there is one) between the streams, the roadmap and the updates. I was just looking back at the two most recent updates ( 3/23 and 4/6 ) and, while every fix is welcome, some things, like the fixes for the C40-8W, were never substantially mentioned on the streams or the roadmap - just a pleasant surprise. And, frankly, I no longer expect much from the roadmap itself. Things, like Cane Creek, for example, seem to just languish forever and, if you ask about it on the stream, you are just fobbed off with a platitude or two and the question is treated almost like an intrusion. No one knows whether it's getting closer or farther away. There must be something to report, surely. The streams are often entertaining and that's why I tune in. I don't see them as dispensing much real information. I don't want to sound "whiney" because I'm really enjoying the game. I guess I'm just venting.
     
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  10. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Just to add to the confusion, in the article it says there is a roadmap stream tonight with Adam and Sam, but in the stream schedule it says it’s Clinchfield with Matt.

    I don’t think they know what’s going on themselves. We have no chance :D
     
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  11. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    upload_2021-4-6_19-17-8.png
     
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  12. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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  13. lupojohn

    lupojohn Member

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    Is Cane Creek a route?
     
  14. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    Yes Cane Creek is route, but there is no release date for it as of yet.
     
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  15. Cloadmcally

    Cloadmcally Active Member

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    Regarding the Lirr update, in the opening section of the article is stated that the update has been held up due to QA, and them having a packed april schedule. That's still not a satisfactory reason, but there's at least some context. However I do agree that this is not cutting it. I get reducing download sizes, but updates are quite infrequent, compared to other games, and having everything come out extremely slowly will only bunch up the updates even more..

    Yes, not developed by DTG though, rather by Skyhook Games.

    Also, What's up with the br101? It was mentioned in the Instagram post but didn't see it mentioned on the roadmap
     
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  16. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    I’m getting a little less benefit out of the Roadmap Streams than I used to. Can’t quite put my finger on it. I would rather see the Clinchfield stream instead, certainly prior to its release rather than on the day
     
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  17. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    The system that worked best - for us - was in my opinion the simple roadmap + granular forum post.

    I still don't trust the patch notes to be 100% accurate and the loss of the granular bug fixes means it's become much harder to keep up with what Adam's team is doing. And the whole "removed from the roadmap" section is such a huge mess as well...

    I still can't comprehend how can it be so difficult to be up to date with the comprehensive list of bug fixes. Even an excel spreadsheet togheter with the roadmap would do, with just three options
    "Aware of it"
    "Working on it"
    "Probabily will not get fixed"

    We know there are two updates coming for MSB and RT, we know there are some sound fixes coming for MSB and for the RT Talent 2, but what about the 182 which is a similar state to the other german electrics in terms of broken sounds?

    They have to make their mind up, they either list every fix separately (like in the forum post) or just write "MSB Update" because right now it's really confusing.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021
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  18. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    I just don't think that the updates, roadmaps and streams are as much connected as people want them to be. Roadmap is just a list of things and features that are upcoming. If you want more info on how it is coming along that is just not the place to look at.
    The roadmap stream gets into detail on what is planned overall as well as having a focus on the progress from preserved crew as of late, which I welcome alot. It is still not meant to disclose any details on upcoming routes or locos and Sam says that every time - so if anyone expects info drops on that, that is on you.
    For Example, the progress of Cane Creek (which on a side note is not even a DTG route) is no topic for roadmap/roadmap streams. That will be topic for articles and dedicated streams once the release is imminent.
    The updates should really not have any corellation to the roadmap, core team can get stuff into update cycles faster than it can go through the roadmap sections and honestly how much time do you want their staff to invest into the roadmap really.
    And I can even understand that QA has not much room left for the testing of preserved updates, considering they have main DLC drops in front of them (and judging by roadmap, Hamburg Lübeck is most likely hard in testing as well right now, as is the BR 101). This should also mean that after both these routes and the BR 101 at least too, are released, QA surely must have more time for preserved collection.
    Which are features and fixes that even I am passionately awaiting (haven't played LIRR and MSB and RT for months because I wanted to wait for the announced updates), but other than the upcoming DLC, they are not subjected to a deadline and don't actively generate income.
     
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  19. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    But they have made up their mind and said that patchnotes will list all single fixes and that roadmap will use broader terms in order to not clutter it.
    If you don't trust the patchnotes, that is on you. Not saying that you have to though.
     
  20. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    The patch notes ofter were incomplete when we had the roadmap for reference, and on the 2/03 I updated LGV on my console but there was no mention of changes in the patch notes.

    From what Sam said it seemed like it takes a lot of effort to get the patch notes right and it's an area of improvement, so I still think they are not 100% reliable. What is written there is right, but how do you know if something is missing now that we no longer have the granular bug fixes?

    About making their mind up, the problem is that if you release a roadmap that looks like this:

    • [Improvement] RT Passengers no longer cross rail in Rapid Transit
    • ★ [Improvement] MSB Upgraded track rendering (Main Spessart Bahn)
    • ★ [Improvement] MSB Added platform edge climb up functionality
    • ★ [Improvement] MSB Added Platform Departure Boards
    • ★ [Improvement] MSB Localisation improvements
    • ★ [Improvement] MSB Fixed holes in environment
    • ★ [Improvement] RT Upgraded track rendering (Rapid Transit)
    • ★ [Improvement] RT Added platform edge climb up functionality
    • ★ [Improvement] RT Localisation improvements
    • ★ [Improvement] RT Fixed holes in environment
    • ★ [Improvement] RT Added scoring and medals
    • ★ [Improvement] RT Added LZB to BR182 locomotive
    • ★ [Improvement] RT Added crossing gates to road crossings
    • ★ [Improvement] RT New timetable based on 2021 data
    • ★ [Improvement] RT Added road traffic
    Instead of looking like this:
    • [Improvement] Main Spessart Bahn Update
    • [Improvement] Rapit Transit Update (featuring a new timetable)
    Is that I think "that is a list for the fixes to MSB and RT, but I wonder why the sounds are not listed there even if Adam said they worked on it and are now in testing? Did the QA team find they didn't work? Or did they find that fixing the sounds caused other bugs and so the new sounds for the 146 and 185 are cancelled?"

    Then I look at "removed from the roadmap" to see:

    • [Improvement] Main-Spessart Bahn audio improvements
    So now I am convinced that the sound improvements for MSB are not happening anymore... or that's what I would think if I wouldn't have read this paragraph:

    "In order to keep the roadmap easy to ready we've combined all the previously highlighted Long Island Railroad, M3 and M7 improvements into one item named "Long Island Railroad route upgrade". Everything we've mentioned previously is still included but we want to avoid this update being a massive list of improvements. Our aim is that you can get a quick understanding of what's coming up without having to wade through every item in depth. When we release each update the patch notes should include absolutely everything included."

    But then again it seems more LIRR specific and is still not clear what exactly is coming with the MSB and RT update so they might just as well not mention any of that
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021
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  21. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Uh, huh. Because we all love 10GB downloads.
     
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  22. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    What? "Installed 13 signals and built a station this week"? In Production means what it says, and we can't really expect more until it's finished and handed over to QA.

    I must admit, though, I'm a bit confused about the MSB loco sound fixes. The RM appears to say "We ain't fixing them", but surely that can't be right?
     
  23. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    I mean in the grand scheme of things, that's quite small. Games like Call of Duty regularly put out updates 5 or more times that size. Maybe on PC this is more unusual, but playing mostly on Xbox, I see 10GB updates as par for the course.
     
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  24. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Well they have to release at some point anyway, so in the end you download the same ammount of data. And doesn't thing "let's wait for a chance to make a themed update" mentality just result in bigger downloads in a bunch, instead of things being downloaded one by one when they're ready?
     
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  25. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    That’s not strictly true. Every time they change something on a route you have to download the whole route again. Three separate fixes in three separate updates would equate to three times the download of one update with all the fixes released at the same time. They also don’t want to release an update for lots of different routes all in one go. I feel they could do better with it but I think half the problem at the moment (and was said in the stream) is testing and preparing the updates for release. New content keeps delaying the release of fixes as much as the fixes being bunched, as the QA and release teams get swamped with all of Adam’s work on top of their usual workload and it goes in an ever longer queue to be finished and released.
     
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  26. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    OK, so just so I have this straight. These routes which are being fixed have to be redownloaded in their entirety? Do we understand why, because this certainly isn't the case in TS20XX.
     
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  27. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    This is an issue with UE4. Because entire routes are in one .pak file, any update requires redownloading the new .pak file.
     
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  28. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I see. One more question. If they fix a locomotive, does that also require the entire route to be downloaded since locos are intrinsic to a particular route?
     
  29. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Depends on whether the loco came with the route, or as a DLC (DLC locos have their own .pak files)
     
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  30. dreampage

    dreampage Well-Known Member

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    I think the problem here is time. Fixing a route seemingly takes more time than making and releasing it. And whenever a new route is released we can almost be sure that it will need a full "bugfix pass" in order to function as it was originally intended. If released routes were less buggy then the Preserved crew wouldn't have to spend so much time fixing them. Now they are in the process of thoroughly fixing older routes, but new (and potentially buggy) routes are released more frequently than the fixing crew can release their fixes. I don't think this is sustainable in the long run, and my fear is that this will eventually lead to cutting off a lot of content in the future, leaving them behind when a new TSW release comes around with new bells and whistles. And the whole cycle starts again.

    So I think it would be great if the bugfixing process could be sped up significantly, and the fixes eventually caught up to the release schedule, or else the team will just collapse under the weight of so many routes and bugs. It just cannot be kept up for long.
     
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  31. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    My reading of the situation is this:
    The roadmap relates to two separate things. What the main dev team are doing and what Adam's preserved collection crew are doing

    What it leaves out is what is in beta test, what the QA team have in their queue and what has passed everything and is just awaiting a released schedule

    I realise this would make it a complex beast, but then the complexity is already there (such as the LIRR fixes being "closed" when they've really been rolled into one heading)

    I also realise that for some there would be an issue in downloading gigabytes of info every few days, but that's not all of us, so in essence we're losing out because of the throttles other users are under. Personally I have unlimited fibre broadband so can download quite a lot before my ISP starts screaming
     
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  32. ralphy_porter2000

    ralphy_porter2000 Active Member

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    TBH I find both quite informative. Ok the roadmap can be a bit confusing at times, but the streams especially with Sam and Adam are particularly enjoyable even if the info relevant to me is sometimes sparse -hardly their fault I like what I like- but my point is even if Im watching out of curiosity rather than to be better informed for a purchase, I still really like the presentation and personality brought to the table. I will even go as far as to say that other streams could learn a lot from the Sam and Adam combo as they are candid with regards to what could be better and it is self-evident that they do care about the product, the community and communication...but they can only tell us what they can tell us and you cant fault them for that.
    Sam also intimated that in the next 4-8 weeks a lot of backlog work should be finished freeing up time to focus on releases, so I think the expectations/gripes that people have now may only be temporary.
     
  33. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Community Manager Staff Member

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    When Adam mentions something he has completed it does indeed then go to testing. We try to be as thorough with the testing as we can be, the last thing we want is to provide you with an update where we claim to have fixed things, only to have missed some rather obvious errors by rushing through.

    Even in a perfect situation where QA discover no problems, the amount of time it takes them to properly investigate a route is hard to determine as it depends on the test requirements.

    An example would be, providing everything is correct and working as intended - If we fix some translation errors, the test could be to read the new text and ensure its now correct (5min job)
    If we adjust the physics of a train, the tests could be to replay every scenario and service involving that train and ensure it's all working as intended (10day job)

    When we look at the preserved collection. LIRR, MSB and RT will have had some major updates and as such the QA time is considerably longer than you have previously experienced.

    The downloads, as has been mentioned by Sam - When we update a route, it'll require a much larger file size the more routes are involved.
    Even a minor change requires a full redownload to a specified route, which for one or two routes isn't a huge issue, but if we cover multiple routes with every patch, it can be a big ask for players. This continues to be something we plan to improve.

    As the Roadmap currently stands, you are being given the most accurate and up to date information we can give you without overpromising or setting unrealistic expectations.

    The update notes you receive alongside it generally contain smaller bits of information and updates that have been implemented in a short timeframe.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
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  34. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for a detailed response regarding testing. With regard to download size, and particularly in regard to consoles, are you allowed to have multiple updates in a week or are you restricted by Microsoft and Sony?
     
  35. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Community Manager Staff Member

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    I beleive it's technically possible. But it would be incredibly difficult to keep track of something like that. Not only for keeping up with notes and letting you all know what's going on, but also internally keeping on top of it all.
     
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  36. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    So what about the idea mentioned earlier, where updates would be released regularly (e.g. on the roadmap day) with all the fixes made and tested until then? Indeed big in download size, but we would know exactly when to expect such download and fixes wouldn't pile up.
     
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  37. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    The patch notes suck anyway, that wouldn't be an issue. Most of the time they do not describe the content of an update.
     
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  38. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    While some of us are blessed with high-speed Internet connections, many players are not; and it would be very frustrating for them, every other time they try to launch TSW, to be forced to wait for two hours while an update downloads. It could also become costly for those whose Internet plans have a monthly cap for free data and charge above that.
     
  39. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    An irony with some of the complaints on here, most recently over the QA logjam as it is affecting the LIRR update, is that DTG are being flogged for trying to do the right thing by the players.

    Almost a year ago, DTG felt obliged, reluctantly, to do something they didn't want to do, and felt bad about it: it had become apparent that TSW1 was not the program core which would permit them to take TSW in the direction they wanted to in the future, and that a complete rebuild - TSW2 - could simply not be done as a free update in the mode of TS updates: they had to charge for it, lest they go out of business.

    But they definitely felt bad about it; not only have Sam and Matt said so, multiple times, but look at their attempts to make it up to us. First, the Preserved Collection: so that players were not stuck with a heap of money invested in obsolete DLC, DTG undertook - at great expense, and for no return - to port every TSW1 route and loco to the new platform (yes, except NEC, I know, I know).

    But then they took the further decision - again, at great expense, and at no charge - to update Preserved Collection routes to keep up with the feature set of TSW2 content, retrofitting PIS boards and grade crossings and skyboxes and LZB and, no doubt, future key improvements like passenger AI. Taking on all of this extra, unanticipated work has meant not only the perpetual to-do list for Adam and his Three Musketeers, but also a very great deal more work for the QA team to get through. Hence the bottleneck: DTG are giving us so much free stuff, they can't process it all very quickly!
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
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  40. grob-e

    grob-e Well-Known Member

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    That"s why they call it patch notes, someone picks out the things that are most important. They don't publish a complete changelog
     
  41. hyperlord

    hyperlord Well-Known Member

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    Speaking of this, never saw patch notes on the steam hub since September 2020 I think ;-)

    I don't want to be a Klugscheißer here but to me this might be a 1m copy&paste job but wouldn't maybe leave all those players without information that don't visit the forums or website but just click on "view news" that's always leading to the not maintained hub.
     
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  42. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Community Manager Staff Member

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    Adding the notes to the steam hub is absolutely something we can look to get done.
     
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  43. pendolino18

    pendolino18 Active Member

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    I suppose it really depends on what type of person you are. If you are the kind of person who hates it when you load up you're xbox and has to wait for an update to download, I can understand why DTG packages them together. However, I'm sure I speak for most people here when I say as long as we know the update is good and is coming with a lot of substantial improvements them I'm more than happy to wang the kettle on or go for a walk and when I come back the download has finished. To me, just using the reason that they don't want us having to download stuff all the time just doesn't hold water for me.
    Whilst on the subject, it was said last night in the stream that the ECW PIS boards will probably now be released with the 313. I could have told you that months ago, I just knew it and I bet you so did DTG! Why didn't they just say that. It would have stopped me going on about it for the past few months. Only problem is, god knows when the 313 will be released!
     
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  44. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I personally agree with the idea of bunching a bunch of bug fixes in a basket like style and releasing them because it takes a long time for updates that are done to be released. Personally I have unlimited download data for my wifi and let's face it, tsw2 updates are not that large compared to other games. Call Of Duty updates are like 3 to 6 times the gig size compared to tsw2 so a 10GB update doesn't seem bad at all. I mean if it takes a while for your game to update, take a walk, read a book or do something else to pass the time.
     
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  45. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    With all the money dtg had gotten before the release of tsw2 makes me 100% doubt they would go out of business if they hadn't charged for tsw2. They also make other games as well mind you

    As for the upgrades and bug fixes for Preserved Collection, dtg had to do them. If they just released routes as they were and not fixed them, that would lead to complaints and lead some potential new customers to not buy a particular preserved collection route. If dtg hadn't ported the routes to tsw2 since tsw2020 was no longer be supported, dtg would have recieved a spinning whirl of backlash as that would mean players have wasted money on content that will no longer be supported. Mind you some bugs on tsw2020 like RRO crashing when approaching Hagen effectively making the route unplayable has not been fixed when tsw2 came out and I doubt that ever got fixed. The tunnel glitch on lirr in tsw2020 as well. It's not as if players are gonna be interested in every new tsw2 route.

    TSW2 does feel more of an update to tsw2020 and not a new game as advertised and all the issues with preserved collection could have been avoided. Look at gwe, it released fine with some minor issues compared to lirr as a example
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
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  46. Costpap

    Costpap Member

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    I have a feeling that the majority of this post was sparked by a comment I made, about which, I acknowledge that it is wrong. The Preserved Collection is definitely a generosity that DTG could have chosen to not have given to players, and updating routes to the latest TSW2 standards, even if the updates are delayed, is definitely better than not doing it at all. To be honest, I only bought TSW2 and became involved in the Train Simulation community very recently, at some point shortly after TSW2's launch. To be exact, the date I bought TSW2 was 09/09/2020. I'm more used to the development workflow of other companies such as SCS Software, where I originally purchased ETS2 in 2012. And even then, my family has traditionally been very involved with trucks. I have ridden on several trucks in real life myself, at least 10 of them, for several hours, compared to never having stepped inside a train. SCS has had the same game for nearly 10 years, and has a set schedule of one free update per 2 months and map expansions every few months, even 1 year in the case of ETS2. And, naturally, the DLCs for ETS2/ATS cost a lot less than a route in TSW2. Seeing as DTG has a reputation of, at least according to what I have heard, releasing a new route every 2 months and barely releasing free updates, seeing such things after being used to the workflow of ETS2 for lots of years, and especially DTG stepping outside of the box by providing more and more free updates compared to what I know about the company based on other users who have been here for a lot longer, feels kind of weird to me. Getting a 30€ route every 2 months and a free update once per year is in no way comparable to getting a free update every 2 months and a 19€ route every 1 year. And while I have compared SCS and DTG in the past, I have now come to realize that, as I pointed above previously, they have very different development needs and workflows.

    I didn't want to make this such a long post, however, I hope that you realize my background and where I come from.
     
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  47. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    Nice post Costpap. I also have been using SCS games for a long time, started with ETS 1 a long time ago.
    I just want to point out a thing you may not know since you are new to TSW: the majority of the "updates" to the preserved collection are in fact just bugfixes for stuff that was broken in the older TSW or got broken when porting it to TSW 2. These are not to be considered free updates a là SCS (= new features), but rather like DTG fixig stuff YEARS after releasing a buggy mess.

    Edit: one more thing. When SCS releases an update, it is usually working great. Here we are dealing with a different situation. I am already looking forward to the new bugs these "updates" will introduce.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021

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