This Is How It Is Done !!! Rivet Take Note!!!

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by ghawk2005, May 30, 2022.

  1. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2021
    Messages:
    1,347
    Likes Received:
    1,953
    To be honest i hope rivet is gonna announce their next project soon.

    Jasper said "now" they are not working on a update, which doesnt mean it will never happen. Arosa took long for a fix, but Rivet made one with many improvements and a dlc pack on top.

    If they might consider a gameplay dlc to west cornwall, i rather have the update with a release than now.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2020
    Messages:
    8,689
    Likes Received:
    12,625
    If you ignore the whole "exploitative marketing model" thing.....
     
    • Like Like x 9
  3. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    2,928
    Likes Received:
    3,910
    Apart from the fact they charge people for updates.
     
    • Like Like x 7
  4. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2020
    Messages:
    486
    Likes Received:
    879
    Yes …and? I have just done 3 practice sessions with a violinist before their exams. All the sessions were charged at £50 per hour and paid for each time regardless how good or bad the violinist was. They are paying for my time, expertise, qualifications, experience etc even though their son is playing the same 3 pieces each time, Do I feel guilty about collecting £200 from a parent…. Absolutely not. That’s why I beat 8000 other people at the auditions to get into one of the UK’s finest music colleges. No point spending 6 hours a day practicing for 4 years with the insane training to be one of the UK’s best musicians if I am going to sit there and charge a measly £10 per hour is it?

    For the record both AP and myself do free updates and free stuff from time to time but the bills have to be paid.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2022
    • Like Like x 2
  5. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2020
    Messages:
    1,867
    Likes Received:
    2,343
    I have defended AP in the past and think they are a good company and good with sound but you have to concede that charging for half a dozen things and then charging for updates as well is a bit much no? Do they charge for fixes as well?

    This is one of things that puts me off TS1 tbh.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  6. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2021
    Messages:
    2,542
    Likes Received:
    5,341
    If DTG or Rivet started releasing updates and bug fixes within 24hours the community would start complaining about any new issue the update caused and point out that they didn't do sufficient testing.

    And the delays for big fixes aremt always 100% down to third parties with TSW. As DTG then need to QA it as do Sony and MS. And we all know how long a back log DTG have with QA over the last 9-12 months. You have to question why rivet or Skyhook would prioritise making an update if it's then going to sit untested for 6-12months before DTG get around with testing it, especially if in the interim a core update then means the fix no longer works and it's back to the drawing board.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  7. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2020
    Messages:
    486
    Likes Received:
    879
    They haven’t charged for fixes and release fixes and free updates for a lot of their packs. Dynamic / Variable Clag Factor was one, they introduced this feature then updated all of the relevant packs with it. They’re very good. If it’s a brand new pack of significant enhancement then I agree they should charge a little. Some enhancement packs are just a few pounds.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Jpantera

    Jpantera Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2019
    Messages:
    293
    Likes Received:
    591
    Have bought a lot of AP stuff in the past and mostly decent. However like everything else it has its good and bad points. Its hamstrung by being part of the TSC/TS20XX/Railworks ancient game engine and TBH once I have seen a few crashes (literally in some cases by the AI dispatcher I quickly quit) The TSW issues are well known but I still feel its a better game engine for now than TSC. Then of course is the guys on the fringes such as Zusi who have a great game engine but use massivly outdated graphics. if only we could get these guys to collaborate it would be one really good product in theory....
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. gazz292

    gazz292 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2018
    Messages:
    424
    Likes Received:
    859
    A lot of people who love the German routes and loco's hoped that TSW2 would be the fabled 'Zusi with modern graphics'

    But Zusi is one bloke working on it, and he's managed to make the operation so realistic that it's used to train new drivers on some railways in Germany!!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    2,928
    Likes Received:
    3,910
    Violin lessons are an ongoing thing, AP products are a one-time payment for a product. There's a big difference.

    "Thank you for buying our class 50 add-on. We've made an unrefurbished version. If you want it, you have 3 weeks to cough up an extra fiver, or you're going to have to buy the whole pack again."

    "Thank you for buying the Class 175 EP. I see Dovetail have given you a free updated version without branding. Want our pack to work with it, and thus work with future scenarios? I'll take an extra £3 for that, thanks."

    If you bought a TV and then the people who made it came to your house, unplugged it, and told you to pay them to get a new one with a slightly thinner frame, I think you'd be rightly a bit annoyed.
     
    • Like Like x 9
  11. euaningarfill

    euaningarfill Active Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2022
    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    82
    Its 3 pounds get over it ap are a small business and dont make that much money unlike dtg big difference
     
  12. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    2,928
    Likes Received:
    3,910
    Ok, what I'll do is when I get the payslip from my new job I'll put its entire value on a cheque and send it AP's way. I might as well because they're just a small cuddly little business.

    Whether it's 3p, £3 or £300 it's still a paid update, and a payment I was not expecting to make when I bought the original product.

    It's like a small independent/family owned bus company sells you a ticket and then tries to charge you to get off, it's all fine because they're just a small business trying to survive.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2022
    • Like Like x 3
  13. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2019
    Messages:
    5,355
    Likes Received:
    14,046
    AP are the Ryanair of train simming.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  14. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2020
    Messages:
    347
    Likes Received:
    435
    I really, really like AP's products. Along with Just Trains, they make premium quality products, well surpassing anything else available for the UK market. Their business model absolutely stinks though - perhaps it is the only way to turn a profit, perhaps it is a fair reflection of the hours put into each loco and sound pack, but I don't have to like it regardless of buying some of their products. The Class 43 enhancements are hilarious - 3 separate packs, each requiring over 100 quid's worth of extra content (not entirely the same content for each, mind!) before you can get full use, the only difference between them being colour and slightly different engine sound. Like to look at the interiors? Tough, we changed that camera hotkey for something else! Want AI traffic? OK, even though you won't interact with it as anything more than a distant scenery object, we're gonna need you to go ahead and buy our enhanced version, thanks.

    Given that some on these forums are adamant that 25 quid is too much for a full TSW dlc, route and rolling stock altogether, Rivet copying AP's model wholesale would generate enough fury to power the UK's rail network for weeks. Luzern-Sursee only having scenarios if you owned Arosa and a livery pack, stuff like that. Can't wait!
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2022
    • Like Like x 3
  15. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2021
    Messages:
    5,944
    Likes Received:
    3,444
    Are you referring to this video

    TOD3 screen is activated existing Dostos DB BR406 403 423 182 185.5 185.6 185.2 have them dead?
    That's what I need for TSW 2 German and Future OBB route Hudless running with a Keyboard on Xbox Series X Xbox One COntroller for Brakes
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2022
  16. euaningarfill

    euaningarfill Active Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2022
    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    82
    The hsts are different three different type of hst i have use the hsts on plenty of scenarios havent even touched aps ones dont aee all the anger and problems
     
  17. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    9,491
    Likes Received:
    8,904
    For the pack, but not for all the requirements of the scenarios for that pack, and then they go back through all their old packs and make the new pack a requirement of it.
    In your business equivalent it would be like you making your students pay you for lessons, but they have to buy your music books to play them and if you release a new book then all the old books become reliant on it

    No issue with AP charging for their locos and sounds, they're great. It's the rest I have an issue with (obviously)
     
    • Like Like x 2
  18. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    9,491
    Likes Received:
    8,904
    Just picking up on this. Their NEW stuff is pretty good when it comes to MML etc, but their older stuff (Still being charged full price mind you) is a bit ropey... Even the Rivet 150 has some things over the JT pacer for example
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    2,928
    Likes Received:
    3,910
    JT did a pacer? Do you mean the 153, the only loco I bought a sound/enhancement pack for because I thought it needed it?
     
  20. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2018
    Messages:
    1,777
    Likes Received:
    2,070
    Yep, a perfect company in every way.
    Except for the questionable morals, the lowering quality, the lack of value for money, the requirements, paid updates, removal of old content while still being needed by other things, needless replacement of various packs, backstabbing DTG...
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2022
    • Like Like x 1
  21. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2020
    Messages:
    486
    Likes Received:
    879
    Ok so if you’re too poor, and stingy to spend £3 on an update, that’s your choice, If you don’t like it don’t buy it. But at least if you did buy it, It would be of excellent quality. That’s a huge difference between that and Rivet where you’re paying £25 for a shed load of fundamental errors in the physics and sounds that have failed to be corrected.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  22. euaningarfill

    euaningarfill Active Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2022
    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    82
    no dtg backstabbing lol when the mk3 pack has the dtg pack included so no
    Paid updates to like two things custom models cost alot so why not charge it was only 5 pound
     
    • Like Like x 1
  23. Jpantera

    Jpantera Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2019
    Messages:
    293
    Likes Received:
    591
    Fully aware of DB using it and the one guy. I'm a fan of Zusi it just lags miles behind on the graphics front which means it would be tricky to have large market appeal. Also its difficult to learn and doesn't have a fancy UI nor HUD for that matter. I'm not critical of it at all I'm just pointing out that the best parts of of Zusi and TsW2 would make one great product....

    As for TSC it's only redemption for me is that a huge library of stuff exists.
     
  24. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2022
    Messages:
    945
    Likes Received:
    1,798
    Same here. Want to play a good TSC scenario?
    Have 5 1st party Payware DLC
    Have 14 3rd party DLC
    Have these 4 Mods installed
    Have these 3 Liveries installed
    Oh, one of the 4 Mods also needs these 5 Mods.

    I like Zusi, I never hoped TSW2 to be a 'Zusi with modern graphics'. Thats impossible knowing DTGs approach and target audience.
    Zusi is basically a training tool and full simulator for real drivers thats also available to the public.
    TSW2 is a train sim/game for gamers who like nice graphics and easy to use and modern interfaces and are ok with a semi-realistic approach or even full on Arcade gameplay (driving without safety systems).

    I hoped TSW2 would have less bugs, better physics then TSC and finally get PZB/LZB right, which it kind of did although its semi-realistic at best but at least you dont have it run amok like in so many TSC routes from DTG.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2022
    • Like Like x 1
  25. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2020
    Messages:
    347
    Likes Received:
    435
    It's not just £3, is it? It's £20+3, given you can't buy an update on its own. And then, what, you have a locomotive or DMU which you'll need a few hours work in TS Tools to get use out of, or buy a load more add-ons. Meanwhile, the last product I bought from Rivet was Swiss S-Bahn for TSW. Sound and physics are fine, I get all the scenarios and timetable services without needing more DLC, and it's a nicely done route. Cost me €18. I don't know how many enhancement packs that would stretch to, but not much. An AP style model would price me, and many others, out of the game.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  26. euaningarfill

    euaningarfill Active Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2022
    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    82
    You can buy a dlc for ts on steam and play the scenarios provided but if you want a more realistic and improved feel 3rd party stock and scenarios are there
     
  27. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2018
    Messages:
    1,777
    Likes Received:
    2,070
    You're trying to justify bad business practices by calling people... Poor? Makes sense.

    But don't get me started on the 'quality product' argument, especially looking back at some of their recent releases.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  28. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2020
    Messages:
    8,689
    Likes Received:
    12,625
    Hey, poor people didn't get ripped off by Madoff or Enron.
     
  29. euaningarfill

    euaningarfill Active Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2022
    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    82
    Just like you lot when you payed tsw 2 upgrade that made no difference and caused massive problems
     
    • Like Like x 1
  30. SonicScott91

    SonicScott91 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2020
    Messages:
    497
    Likes Received:
    1,084
    Train Sim World 2 was an overhaul to the UE engine and besides you got two brand new routes thrown into the package with Bakerloo & Koln - Aachen. Console players got three new routes as they never had Sand Patch in TSW2020. Two routes (three for console users) for £24.99 is an absolute steal! I notice this always gets missed out and instead it's £24.99 for an update when people want to try and make a "point".

    It certainly wasn't a perfect transition to TSW2 by any means. DTG wouldn't have ported over old content had the community not spoken up but they did and did it free of charge. AP definitely would've charged per DLC upgraded without a doubt.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  31. euaningarfill

    euaningarfill Active Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2022
    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    82
    Two new routes
    cant even do a two tone horn on koln
    Underground massive gaps platforms not round does not even look like the bakerloo line
    Sound are crap
    Massive problems with previous dlc transferring
    But core upgrade but still have not changed anything
    And now they have droped the price of the game to 5 pound when the old the game ts is 20 pound does not make sence trying to force people to the game
     
    • Like Like x 2
  32. SonicScott91

    SonicScott91 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2020
    Messages:
    497
    Likes Received:
    1,084
    Two for PC. Three for consoles, they never got Sand Patch Grade so it was a completely new experience on those platforms.
    You can do a two tone horn on Koln, in both the ICE and Talent 2.
    Some gaps are too big but the route's alright in general. I enjoy driving it anyway.
    Sounds aren't perfect but tolerable, subjective to the individual.
    Core upgrade added adhesion and LZB functionality for the ICE3M, a lot of the other work went into the background processes of the game. It also enabled them to make routes at higher speeds than 125mph.
    If it is £5 then it makes it an even better bargain! Price doesn't indicate one game is better than the other, they're not forcing you to buy anything. I personally enjoy both TSC and TSW.

    Anyway, I'm stepping out here. This is getting off topic.
     
  33. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2018
    Messages:
    1,777
    Likes Received:
    2,070
    *Complains about TSW2 quality issues
    *Ignores AP quality issues
     
    • Like Like x 1
  34. euaningarfill

    euaningarfill Active Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2022
    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    82
    At least they actually record sound from the real thing and not use sounds from other trains
    Ap have not droped quality lol
     
  35. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2018
    Messages:
    1,777
    Likes Received:
    2,070
    https://youtube.com/c/Yawwie

    Probably worth looking through his AP reviews...
     
  36. euaningarfill

    euaningarfill Active Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2022
    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    82
    Would never recommend yawwie a truly awful reviewer
     
  37. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2020
    Messages:
    8,689
    Likes Received:
    12,625
     
    • Like Like x 1
  38. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2018
    Messages:
    1,777
    Likes Received:
    2,070
    Because he points out obvious flaws? Or is there an actual reason for you saying that?
     

Share This Page