This Is Why The Community Is Upset

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by londonmidland, Oct 6, 2020.

  1. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    How important are Steam reviews?
    I rarely pay any attention to them as they are so random.
    I prefer to wait and watch a play through on Youtube by a trusted reviewer.
    Easier to judge graphics, gameplay, interface, storyline etc..

    This is why the livestreams are so important.
    Over an hours worth of gameplay gives you a very good idea of what a route has to offer.
    I’m positive these have more influence on sales than any review on Steam.
     
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  2. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    I always like to be my own judge and have often liked something that has crap reviews, cars, movies and games.

    That said, as a developer, would you like to see good reviews and ratings or poor reviews and ratings. A lot of people will be put off seeing poor reviews.
     
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  3. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I rarely take notice of reviews for anything on the internet. Reviews are often emotive, or clearly inaccurate both complimentary and negatively. Much prefer to see said item in action if possible. I have seen some very amusing but totally inaccurate Trip Adviser reviews, one of a friends B&B which I know was a total fabrication of what actually occurred.
     
  4. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    If they had competition, they would get their act together but since they don't, they get to call the shots and make poor decisions
     
  5. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I can name several other train simulators including Trainz which is 19 years old!
     
  6. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps their sign-off process needs to be changed. I could understand that they have a responsibility to their shareholders as they are a business of course, but when you claim that QA testers actually test the routes but when a route is released it has issues that are clear as day it leads a player to question, "has this route been tested". So of course it's gonna leave some people to question if the qa team are doing their job. Are there going to be bugs when a product is released on day 1, YES because nothing is perfect espically in gaming but when you have bug that it's clear to see, it's gonna get people annoyed and espically if that bug won't be addressed like in Train Sim World 2020 with the LIRR tunnel glitch. Whoever is signing off either needs to be fired orto actually make sure they work instead of releasing the product for $30 that is low quality. Yes it's a business thing, but shouldn't customer satisfaction come before a profit and "We'll release it now, fix it later mentality"
     
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  7. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    trainz is not on console mate. in terms of console, dtg has no competition in that area
     
  8. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Okay well you didn't specifically mention consoles
     
  9. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    TSW is not a pc exclusive game, I figure you would know that. Anybody would unless your a hardcore pc player and forgot about consoles
     
  10. mike370

    mike370 Active Member

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    On occasions they might well be a tad emotive. However, we both know that for certain 3rd party developers for train sim products (a few obvious one's that spring to mind: Digital Traction, Victory Works, Smokebox, HIS, AP, virtual Railroads, VRC, Rivet, BMG, Chris Trains etc..) the Steam reviews will be overall glowingly positive - fair & balanced reviews.

    It's the same player customer base. So why is it some addon developers get such consistent rave reviews in the Steam store for all their products, whilst DTG regularly flounder so badly. It is all down to raw emotion of critics? Or possibly that the developers scoring well are perceived to care passionately about both their creations & customers, & are clearly determined to release high quality products everytime?

    Personally I find such store reviews can be very helpful - at the very least giving a good general trend indicator, especially if the obvious silly outlier reviews are ignored. In my experience though, it's always the case (that despite the odd clown or individual with a clear grudge) if you have a majority of large number of reviews giving a clear negative summary with similar concerning observations; well's there's probably a very good justified reason for them doing so. And so providing a valid redflag to any potential buyers to beware & proceed with caution.
     
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  11. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Reviews are helpful, not everybody who posts a negative review may have a grudge, there may be a legimate reason and it's the same for a positive reveiew
     
  12. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    I am trying to imagine the look on Sam's face as he returned to the forums after holiday today and saw them devolve into a scene from Lord of the Flies
     
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  13. KyleL

    KyleL Well-Known Member

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    When Sam isn't here the DTG forums turn into a Mad house
     
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  14. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Hey it dtg's fault that it's a madhouse.
     
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  15. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Its also the community going crazy furious when things happen.
     
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  16. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    DTG doesn't make people post here, so the content of this board is all on the people who post here, NOT DTG
     
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  17. heyitspopcorn

    heyitspopcorn Well-Known Member

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    This is a very informative post. I appreciate the transparency.
     
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  18. GoonerMike56

    GoonerMike56 New Member

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  19. GoonerMike56

    GoonerMike56 New Member

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    I love both Train Simulator and Train Simulator World. I'm a PC user who originally b
     
  20. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    You didn't finish what you had to say lol
     
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  21. Coppo

    Coppo Well-Known Member

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    Possibly "taken out" by the console mafia... :)
     
  22. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    I feel the “community” is not as concerned as much as a minority on here thinks it is.
    They are pretty vocal online, but I suspect the majority are content enough with the improved graphics and gameplay, despite the bugs and glitches.
    I genuinely believe Sam, Matt, Adam and the ever present tea-boy, are trying to turn things round and need some time to put things right.
    But this being the internet we expect immediate results.
     
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  23. Class395

    Class395 Active Member

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    I wholeheartedly agree. Look at the dev streams before the launch. They showed us the game how it was, that would have NEVER happened before. Other examples: Roadmap, Active mods here on the forums etc.
     
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  24. Easilyconfused

    Easilyconfused Well-Known Member

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    I think you hit the nail on the head there.

    On some of the streams - notably the first showing or launch streams we have had upwards of 2000 viewers. There certainly aren't that many regularly posting on these forums.
     
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  25. GoonerMike56

    GoonerMike56 New Member

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    Where's todays roadmap on YouTube, meant to have started at 19.00 ?
     
  26. Easilyconfused

    Easilyconfused Well-Known Member

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    19:00 UTC = 20:00 BST
     
  27. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think things should be immediate. Nothing can ever be done immediately but it seems they aren't taking the time to fix these problems since they're too focused it seems on making profits
     
  28. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    They’re rolling out the Preserved Collection first, then focusing on bugs and fixes. They’ve explained this multiple times. Check out their latest stream on YouTube, they explain a lot into how their dev process is and why some things are rushed.

    That stream made me rethink some of the things said here on the forums.

    Hopefully they actually do focus on the bugs and stuff after they’re done with the rollout. They even mentioned some of them on the stream.
     
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  29. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Yes they have said that several times and I am sure most understand that. However if it doesn't fit in with what you want to think, then it is irrelevant what DTG say, as they are only interested in releasing buggy content and making a quick buck.

    That last comment is a paraphrase by the way, for any avoidance of doubt!
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2020
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  30. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    If they were making so much money, where’s Sam and Matts bling when they webcast?
    It’s a tired trope but it must be worth some internet karma I suppose.
     
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  31. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    Reviews have a place, but you're right that often they can be far from the truth.

    There's some Train Simulator DLC where the negative reviews are well deserved (West Coast Main Line South on release, the TGV rDuplex etc) but there's also some which have negative reviews purely because people don't know how to read a manual.

    The other problem is the fact that it only takes one serious bug to produce a negative review. If you're unable to finish a tutorial or service etc, the product gets branded untested and reviewed as such.
     
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  32. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Yes I agree with that. Although watching the stream of WCMLS was enough to make me not want to purchase it yet when I was almost certain I was going to purchase it.
     
  33. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    For me personally, reviews are a very useful feature. I always scroll through the reviews on Steam. As Steam forces you to add some text in your review, it means that most reviewers state the reason why they upvoted or downvoted the DLC. There frequently are indeed people downvoting a DLC because they can't be bothered to read manuals. I just ignore those reviews though. But there's also a few useful reviews which help me decide. Steam also lets people upvote helpful reviews, which results in the most useful reviews being listed on top. I'm very happy with Steams review system.
     
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  34. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I did see the stream and it confirms dtg's mentality of "release it now, fix it later" and how they're more focused on releasing buggy and sometimes unplayable routes to make a profit instead of making it work properly. They have a bad habit of not fixing clear bugs and the whole if it's not on the roadmap thing is a joke because it's not transparent enough when it comes to bugs and than a route like Canadian National will get very poor reviews and potentially low sales because of massive clear bugs that will wind up in the review page and draw people away from that particular product.
     
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  35. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    The majority of the people getting licenses for the preserved collection are existing TSW1 users, so no profit there

    Pre-roadmap I would agree. If you don't allow for things to change and grow...

    Maybe you're not clear on what the roadmap is for... If people want to learn about bugs, read what he community says. If you want to know which are being fixed, read the roadmap
     
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  36. skyMutt

    skyMutt Well-Known Member

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    They're not doing this to earn a profit, DTG doesn't exactly earn money from porting over all of the preserved collection stuff (unless you want to buy the routes you don't already have, but thats different).

    That "release now, fix later" mentality isn't perfect, no no. But there would be plenty of people who would be upset to learn that their collection of routes they have on TSW would go to waste. So its sort of seen as a top priority over bug fixes, it just makes sense for a studio of their size. Again, its not like its out of greed or malice or anything. Bug fixes are coming relatively soon now that 80% of the preserved collection is complete. We just have to see how things are handled in the coming weeks and months :P
     
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  37. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    For new players playing tsw2 and never played tsw2020, of couse they'll be making money because those new players may buy preserved collection routes as they are not free. If they weren't wanting to make a profit, maybe they would make preserved collection free for new players.
     
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  38. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    I think Adam explained it fairly well with Sam on the stream yesterday. In addition to the Preserved Collection team, the main core team is also being tied up in the heavy lift of moving over the preserved collection routes. If they were to slow down and fix every little immersion breaker right now, that would tie up the core team even longer, meaning no new developments, or very limited new developments of the core game. They made the decision to get the preserved stuff out ASAP so the core team can go back to doing their thing, while the preserved team can then go back and work on improvements and bugs in the content.

    Think of it like this. You ask your mates to come and help you move flats (look at this Yankee using all these Brit words). You're going to use the time you have with them to get the heavy lifting done right? You're not going to tie them up unpacking boxes of dishes, you're going to have them moving the sofa and stuff. Then once they go you can go back and start working on the smaller stuff. Well. Adam and the preserved team are you moving flats. The core dev team are your mates taking time out of their day to help.

    In the end, it's a decision of prioritization that they made to maximize employee bandwidth. You can disagree with the decision, but don't act like it's illogical or due to a lack of care.
     
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  39. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    ‘The majority of the people getting licenses for the preserved collection are existing TSW1 users, so no profit there’

    ‘They're not doing this to earn a profit, DTG doesn't exactly earn money from porting over all of the preserved collection stuff (unless you want to buy the routes you don't already have, but thats different).’

    Both wrong. Yes they are doing this to earn a profit. By porting the routes over they can sell the routes to new clients when they buy TSW2. While porting the routes doesn’t seem to be as easy as you’d think it’s a lot less work, time and money than making new routes. DTG’s business has always been about selling the additional route and rolling stock, this is no different. They are getting content for the new game cheaply. They’d also have an issue with the routes of they just stayed on TSW1 as they’d have significantly less sales as TSW1 is the ‘old’ game.

    There’s probably an accounting reason to do it as well. Many of the TSW1 routes aren’t that old. It’s not uncommon for software developers, for accounting purposes to write off the development costs over a period of time (years) rather than taking the whole cost at the time it’s incurred. That smooths the expense against the income (the sales over time of the product). Not moving them to TSW2 might have given them issues as the software might now be considered of less value and they might have needed to take an accounting charge. They will have considered that problem when deciding to launch TSW2 so quickly after TSW.

    But the big mistake is thinking that there aren’t going to be new sales of the old preserved collection. Many of the old titles (GWE for example) may well be more attractive to new purchasers of TSW2 than some of the new routes. While it’s not universally true I’d expect there are more casual gamers who’d think driving a HST is more interesting than bumbling along on the IOW in an old tube train. DTG still sell TSxxxx content that was made years ago and the same will be true of TSW content. Old content costs them very little to maintain. It’s how they’ve made money in the past and will make money in the future.
     
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  40. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, not everyone may be interested in buying the new content. It's down to preference
     
  41. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    A decent explanation, and perhaps it wouldn't be such a big deal if DTG didn't have a bad reputation for fixing bugs. I guess time will tell if DTG are actually improving their bugfixing. Takes time to win back some trust. So far the community managers have set a few good steps in the right direction, which gives a bit of hope. DTGs bad reputation for not fixing bugs, especially in Train Simulator DLC, makes me a tad skeptical and careful.

    Lets hope I'm wrong. :)
     
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  42. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Let's hope.
     
  43. Vinnie

    Vinnie Well-Known Member

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    Two more reasons the community is upset>

    1 - The game jumped from 1.05 to 1.08 update on PS4 and the only patch note describe crashes related to trophies.
    2 - So no more fixes regarding the base TSW2 game like suddenly SPAD on SPG and 0 fixes for BKL, 0 fixes for SKA.
     
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  44. teilekind

    teilekind Member

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    Not every buildnumber gets out to the public, or did you got updates + had to download the Basegame 3 times in the last 2 weeks?
    The full ~14gb for 1.06, 1.07, 1.08 each?


     
  45. GrigoriRasputin

    GrigoriRasputin New Member

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    This must be a weird joke that I'm not getting. How on earth is that fair towards people who bought said content?
     
  46. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    Yea...so...sure it may be annoying to some folks that there weren't patch notes....on the PS4...in a PC forum. But I'm not sure the PC community is all that upset about PS4 patch notes.

    Do people even bother reading the title of the forum they post in??
     
  47. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    I think going back to the original title of this thread, I think most people are currently annoyed at how much Dovetail games mishandled the TSW franchise... or mishandled its potential.

    To say one good positive thing before I deep dive into the negative... has been Sam. I do not always agree with his viewpoints... but I think it's the first time I've seen a CM who isn't just a marketing arm of Dovetail. But instead actually does his best to have a more balanced critique of the company, and has a way of pointing out the obvious to people. He brought a voice to the trainsim community and much-needed transparency, and I do respect him for that.

    Now looking at the negatives.

    1. The potential

    We first had the "honeymoon" period of TSW:CSX. Through marketing videos and existing gameplay, some sort of precedent was established that TSW would be much more detailed than its TS counterpart, with breakers everywhere, more dynamic weather, better graphics, more gameplay variety etc.

    Was this expectation met: Sort of. Whilst features such as simugraph do bring an extra layer to train simulation, we keep seeing regressions in the technology in TSW. Dynamic weather was only used for 1-2 scenarios, engine rooms are becoming more sparse, breakers are now limited to just core safety systems, number of scenarios compared to TS:Classic has dropped, some glaring graphical inferiorities (sky, water)

    2. The routes

    To me, it's clear that DTG keep running to tighter deadlines for their scenery building, and seem to keep themselves limited to certain map size. Routes will on average be 40 miles, with train variety selected to bring about an hour in gameplay. What comes out of those routes varies dramatically in quality.

    - Only about 10% of that route will ever be used in any thoughtful way
    - DTG have a clear problem with distant scenery. Whilst improved with the latest German DLC, edge of world problems still persist. Latest IOW DLC uses oversized trees to try and hide poor distant detail.
    - Generic stations are very cookie cutter. Very clinical with the same assets
    - Poor platform edge/canopy clipping. Out of the routes I own, I get clipped trains on LIRR, SFS, BKL, NTP.
    - Serious doubt on timetable testing, with some routes often requiring drivers to physically abuse their unit to try and keep to time
    - Some routes just outright ignored in bugfixing due to poor quality, either poor signalling, trackwork, playability etc. See OSD, NEC
    - Routes consistently getting cut off at the weirdest of places, or neglecting a branch.
    - Re-mastered routes getting downgraded features e.g. level crossings


    The cardinal sin with paying £25 a pop for all these routes seems to be the lack of oversight for route expansions. What an absolute waste of potential with buying basically every German route, and not being able to do end-to-end services with them.

    3. The trains

    Some leniency for 2020 routes goes to COVID and the ability to research these trains. But again, some persistent problems :

    - Low-poly modelling becoming even more evident with newer releases
    - Sounds just not up to par on almost every train. Horns repeatedly don't work, poor track joint sounds, sometimes disappointing traction sounds.
    - Repetitive backtracking on locomotive performance (see Class 47, American units, that one german shunter rivet did)
    - Some questionable cab sway
    - Odd choice in variety of locos, as DTG tend to re-use units. Modern abundance on German routes, slight Diesel abundance on UK which is being rapidly corrected... and I don't even know where USA stands :D

    If it wasn't for some of the fine folks on the TSC discord, the community seems to be over-compensating for Dovetails inadequacies, with constant texture and sound improvements. One can only wonder what TSW would look like if they had an editor...



    5. The promises

    Bit of a dead horse. But I think you all know. Multiplayer, editor, steam, proper tutorials, longer routes. You get the idea.


    6. The editor

    The biggest slap in the face to me, has been the editor, and just the excuses peddled with it.

    - We were first told that the delay was due to DTG working on the documentation
    - We were then told it was too hard? As someone who works in unreal, I do not buy this excuse at all. The basic unreal editor is fairly easy to use, and would only be over-complicated by additional plugins you would add to it (think the bus-simulator 18 editor). If it is that difficult, then why would DTG and approved third parties continue to use and pump out DLC?
    - We were then told it was because they wanted to keep the same experience as console.
    This also makes no sense as the availability of desktop applications used to make items like trains and scenery will never be available on console. Console is not, or ever will be an equal platform for creation, only for publishing.
    - We were then told it was for legal reasons, which I suspect to be the real reason... but still makes little sense... unless DTG wanted a slice of the revenue produced by all DLC. In essence "If I can't have it... no-one can".

    7. In summary

    What did have an extremely bright future, Train Sim World feels like it has been horribly mismanaged. There was a chance to create engaging and high-quality content with a well-considered road-map. Instead we've slipped back into TS:Classic styled dlc. Features that should have been day-1 in the sim are now being made up as we go along, and that is how we end up on (technically three) versions of TSW.

    When you look towards other developers of the unreal engine, it seems quite clear that DTG are not making full use of its potential. The new Tramsim by Aerosoft seems to have features begged for by the community, including better pedestrian ai, cctv cameras, better lighting, better car traffic and more. Furthermore, you can also see examples of tech-demos that are massively improved renditions of some TSW features e.g. water, clouds, dynamic seasons, sounds.



    DTG, I wish you the best. But when I compare them against someone like SCS over a 10-year period, it's amazing to see the attitude between both companies from consumers. The roadmap was a good first step towards transparency, but I have yet to see that reciprocated in their products (off-topic to TSW, but the latest WCML release was a considerable slap in the face to the community). I'm hoping the latest Simrail announcement lives up to their promises and provides much-needed competition.
     
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  48. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that most people are currently annoyed... there may be a vocal minority of annoyed people, but there are at least as many people who still find much to enjoy about the game despite ongoing issues.

    The notion that the community is upset is a flawed one; annoyed or disgruntled customers don't speak for everyone.
     
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  49. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    In the context of this forum post which is full of disgruntled or annoyed customers. I'm sure there are many who happily go buy content with their purchase. But can't say the opposite is true either.
     
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  50. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    If everything goes as it seems, they will have a pretty good competitor in Q3 next year. I just hope DTG does not try to rush multiplayer to have it at the same time. It can add a huge amount of bugs.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2020
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