Track Ir

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by TerryBalldriver, Mar 10, 2021.

  1. TerryBalldriver

    TerryBalldriver Member

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    The removal of Track IR from the road map this week I know is intended to be temporary but it is important that it returns at a future date. Not everyone has a Track IR but not everyone has a Railroad driver but all these extras help the 'immersion factor'. Classic Train Sim, EuroTruck, Assetto Corsa Competizione, Flight Sim, Bus Simulator plus many more games all support Track IR, why should TSW2 be any different. Sam did say on last night's roadmap stream to keep posting on the forum's the thing we want for TSW2, so I thought I'd start this one. Cheers.
     
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  2. chriis

    chriis Member

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    Totally agree, very disappointed to see it taken off the roadmap - so much so I've actually logged in to add my support to this thread. (I usually just lurk!)

    The level of immersion that TrackIR offers is immeasurable. I play a number of simulation titles (most of the ones OP mentioned, in fact) and for me it has been a game-changer in all of them, so the prospect of it coming to TSW was very exciting indeed!

    As a related 'aside', I hope that the development of RailDriver compatibility leads into the ability to properly map all/most of the fundamental train functions to external controllers. This, in addition to TrackIR support, would allow for a fully immersive keyboard/mouse-free experience for those who want it.
     
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  3. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Active Member

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    I would absolutely agree with that.

    But I would also like to point out that - together with TrackIR - the Tobii Eye Tracker should also be integrated. I use both devices (in flight sims and StarCitizen) and the Tobii is better from my point of view (it can pick up head movements in addition to eye movements) because you don't have to wear anything on your head for it and the light conditions don't matter (sun from all sides or complete darkness... doesn't matter).

    From my point of view, both products should be supported because it massively increases the immersion and immersion is king - as stated often by Matt and other devs. Especially for TSW... the idea of being able to look around in a cab and lean forward/back is quite a killer feature.

    Fun fact: Everyone I know who once used Tobii or TrackIR doesn't want to go without anymore. It's really the second best thing after VR.
     
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  4. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    I never heard of this Tobil thing, but I will check it out. I think TrackIr and similar devices are important to support..There is a good ergonomic reason for this. In real life the driver can use his head to look a bit up or down very quickly, while keeping the fingers on the controls. This way he/she can monitor what is going on outside and keep an eye on the gauges very fast.

    In theory you can do the same in the simulation by using camera moves, but this much slower and you need your hands as a device to enforce the movement.. That is why TrackIr is interesting for me and I must say, after months of waiting and promise, it is a big mistake to remove it from the roadmap and I feel a bit cheated that is was on the roadmap. The promise was we are working on what is on the roadmap.

    So let us fill the forums with TrackIr requests!

    EDIT: I started the good work and created a poll in the suggestions forum
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2021
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  5. Knightfire1964

    Knightfire1964 Well-Known Member

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    i've heard of tobi i tracking first time i heard about it was that it had support for the first time on one of the F1 games by codemasters but don't hear many people who use it
     
  6. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Active Member

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    I have also only ever used the TrackIR. Then StarCitizen had a big campaign for the Tobii Eye Tracker 5 and everyone was extremely excited about it. That got me interested and I ordered one of those devices.

    What can I say, all the things that always annoyed me about the TrackIR are better solved there. I no longer need a cap with reflectors and the thing does not interfere with my glasses or direct / side sunlight from the window (in certain light situations I could never use TrackIR).

    Since then, my TrackIR is in the corner and I really only take the Tobii.
     
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  7. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    So, for my understanding, TrackIR is that a specific type of VR system that runs with out goggles, i.e. if you move your head around, it will move the screen accordingly? Or how is that system different to something like the Oculus Rift for example?
    I would really appreciate anything along those lines, I think TSW is the perfect application for VR, and would add huge amounts to the immersion. And DTG calling it a niche product is a very weak argument I would say, since Raildriver is not much "better" in that regard either :D I actually never heard of it before, and there are much more things available on the VR market for sure!
     
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  8. chriis

    chriis Member

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    TrackIR uses an infrared sensor to track head movements from reflective spots attached to your hat. You don't need to wear goggles, or have any other specific hardware (or even a high end PC - mine is lower than 'potato' on the spec scale!), you just need a baseball cap which actually came included with my TrackIR system!

    Your head movements are then translated into camera movements in-game. Its far more intuitive than it may appear when you first see it, but as others have said - once you have used it once, you never want to go back!
     
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  9. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Active Member

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    (a bit old, but short and informative)

    And Tobii Eye Tracker is similar but without cap or sensors for the head. This works with an IR camera that tracks the eyes and head movement.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2021
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  10. Oli R C

    Oli R C Member

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    I own TrackIR but am certainly very interested in the Tobii Eye Tracker, and have watched many videos on it, so when the time is right I will probably purchase it.

    But in general, a really nice use case would be if, let's say you pull up at a signal but accidentally get a bit too close and the signal is just out of view through the window, obscured by the train. You could then lean your head to the side or duck/move forward slightly if it's above, and your viewpoint will move accordingly and you will be able to see the signal without using any other view.

    The main games I've used TrackIR with are Elite and Assetto Corsa, and also TSXX. I think the above scenario where the actual point where your head moves to give you a different angle did work this way in Elite and Assetto Corsa, but maybe TSXX only rotated your viewpoint around a single point. Can't quite remember on that one, it's been a while.
     
  11. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Active Member

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    Yes, but not only that. If you can look around, you get a much better feel for the speed. I also think braking with pinpoint accuracy is much better, especially on subways or commuter trains, when you have to stop right at these safety monitors to the right or left of the cabin.

    Or reading small displays in the cabin. Or generally you get more of the mostly beautifully designed landscape by looking around. What brings us to immersion...
     
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  12. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    Thanks :) That looks really nice, especially going to and from the screen, but the head rotation is maybe a bit tricky I can imagine, eventually you will no longer see the screen :D
    But I agree, this should be further pursued, maybe there could be a broader approach towards VR in general, but one that would make TrackIR or Tobii work as well?
     
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  13. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Active Member

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    I think real VR is a completely different beast. The performance is extremely critical there, since 2 images have to be rendered in high resolution with a lot of FPS (if it stutters, you might get motion sick). Many games realize that by lowering the details for VR. Since performance is a critical issue in TSW anyway, I think the implementation of VR will take some time. Therefore, TrackIR / Tobii could be a nice intermediate step on the way.

    But not only an intermediate step. I like it sometimes even more than VR because I'm not so disconnected from the real world / wife / daughter / cat / doorbell / phone / etc. And if I ride the train for hours, the VR goggles might get warm, sweaty and heavy at some point.

    So TrackIr / Tobii isn't just "poor man's VR," it's a separate, different thing that has its big benefits.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2021
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  14. rabid

    rabid Well-Known Member

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    +1 for TrackIR, been using it for years with truck sim, ts1, and various racing titles.
     
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  15. Allsop4

    Allsop4 New Member

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    I have TrackIR and Tobii because I like all things in head tracking , including VR. But Tobii was not promised 2 months after release like TrackIR was. That promise, along with RailDriver and other controller support made it a no-brainer for me to move to TSW2. Taking it off the road map makes me think that they don't know how important it is. But that couldn't be. Matt surely knows what an indispensable piece of kit the TrackIR is for sims.

    I believe DTG will eventually make good on their promise to add TrackIR. We just have to push them to prioritize it. I don't believe that a feature that was promised 2 months after release should be on the back burner.
     
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  16. Matthew Wilson

    Matthew Wilson Active Member

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    I had track IR, the big disadvantage for me was you turn your head and rotate the camera, but now you need to side-eye your monitor as that physically stays put. Same for looking up or down as well.

    Im waiting till payday to purchase derail valley but that'll be a far more immersive way of doing it with a true 3D VR headset along with having support for the VR native controllers as well to interact with the cab environment.

    I understand not everyone can afford the PC or the headset, but that's the same for the rail driver, its an expensive piece of kit - way more than basic track IR.
     
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  17. StratPlayer62

    StratPlayer62 Well-Known Member

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    I was also disappointed to see it removed, I was considering buying one once support was available for it.
     
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  18. chriis

    chriis Member

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    Yes, this certainly takes some getting used to!

    I think it depends on the game and how much movement you need from the camera, and in Train Sim I've found I never need more than 180 degrees side-to-side, often not even that much. By fine-tuning the motion 'curves' in the settings I have found a sweet-spot that works for me - I run a 27" monitor and my head has to physically turn no further than looking at the edge of the display to get my desired view sideways in the cab. I don't find this uncomfortable in terms of 'side-eye', but obviously everyone's comfort threshold will be different!
     
  19. Drakoz

    Drakoz Active Member

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    Yes, just noticed today that TrackIR fell off the roadmap. I assume since it is off the list, it is going to be a long time before gets back to the list (taking the word for the OP that it is a temporary removal, but a removal is a removal). I have almost given up on asking for this kind of stuff from DTG, but posting here to say +1 for TrackIR. It really does totally transform any sim, which is why most long time simmers have a TrackIR, and why TrackIR has been popular for 20 years.

    In the mean time, if you haven't seen it, this video shows a work around to make TrackIR do 2D head movement by allowing your head to move the mouse. No where near as nice as native 6 Degree of Freedom TIR support, but just FYI. It
     
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  20. VION

    VION Active Member

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    I am as disapointed as you are knowing that Track IR support has been removed from the roadmap. I gave this game a negative review on Steam for the simple reason that there is no support for Track IR. It exists for TS 2020 so why isn't it implemented in TSW2? I really don't see the obstruction that prevents Track IR support for TSW2. I'm calling for the return of Track IR support in TSW2.
     
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  21. TerryBalldriver

    TerryBalldriver Member

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    Good to hear on this week's roadmap stream that Track IR is going to return to the roadmap fairly soon.:)
     
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  22. chriis

    chriis Member

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    Good news indeed! :D
     
  23. Commiee

    Commiee Well-Known Member

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    Very reasonable to post negative review on a fresh sim with a small budget and team just because they have TrackIR in plans but not yet implemented. Not childish at all.
     
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  24. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Long time TrackIR user for both Flight simulations and TSClassic and Run8. While I thoroughly enjoy the tech (also a VR earlier adopter), it isn’t a deal breaker if the tech isn’t supported. There so much more needed to add immersion than head tracking and I was fine when they removed it from the roadmap with the explanation it was not actively being worked on but would be placed on once work was planned.

    Makes sense since I would hazard to guess the percentage of TrackIR users is a small portion of the overall player base and other problems being fixed in the simulation would be beneficial to a larger portion of the player base. Just glad to hear will be on the Roadmap once again.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021
  25. RobSkip

    RobSkip Well-Known Member

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    TrackIR was actively removed from the roadmap, so is clearly no longer in their plans in the short-medium term at least.
     
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  26. Commiee

    Commiee Well-Known Member

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    Sam later said on stream it's likely to return in the next roadmap update because there has been some progress on it, but even if it doesn't, that doesn't change the original point.
     
  27. VION

    VION Active Member

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    I keep my point of view alive and won't modify my Steam review (which is in global positive report if you rod it) as long as TIR native support will be not there. It took few years for TSxxxx to become supported so I can live without for TSW2 at time; but hope for the futur support even main players don't take care of this feature. Some have the native support for RailDriver console which I don't care myself even I have a railDriver console that I don't use anymore. yes TSW2 is playable without TIR yes it is without RailDriver console, but the goal will be to improve the base features not? even all players don't care about new features.
     
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  28. Commiee

    Commiee Well-Known Member

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    I'm one of those players who use TrackIR and are looking forward to having it supported by the sim, but I'm not throwing tantrums in reviews just because "X was in TS classic so why not in TSW2". TrackIR users are a minority, therefore our needs are not a priority for devs who have tons of other things to do until then.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021
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  29. DROGE

    DROGE Member

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    Couldn't believe it when I saw TrackIR no long appearing on the roadmap. No TrackIR means no TSW2 for me. It's uninstalled until TIR support is available. I've been using TrackIR since 2004 (MS Flight Simulator 2004 supported it!). It's essential for transport simulators IMHO, and almost all titles have support for it. (Including TS2021 as we know).

    Come on DTG ......
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2021
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  30. DROGE

    DROGE Member

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    The "original point" being, that you're telling people what constitutes the justification for a negative review. Have you any idea how arrogant that sounds? I also gave TSW2 a negative Steam review, for this exact same reasons (no TrackIR support in TSW2).

    My "justification" is as follows:-

    - TS1 / Classic has it - a title dating back to 2007. TSW2 is purported to be a technical advancement over TS Classic.
    - Almost all other transport simulations, from other developers, provide TrackIR support (peer comparison)
    - DTG promised TrackIR support "within 2 months of TSW2's release" - a failed promise.

    Is that ok with you?
     
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  31. Commiee

    Commiee Well-Known Member

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    That's exactly one of the explanations of why TrackIR is not yet in TSW2, a title released only eight months ago.
    Other transport simulations have their own roadmaps and priorities on when to implement specific technical support.
    Firstly I have not seen that statement, but secondly, plans change in game development. Even a brief look at the roadmap, and comments by DTG on streams about development, shows how much work there is that's more urgent than TrackIR that needs to be completed first.

    I'm not going to host lectures for people who don't understand how priorities in game development work. Niche features/mechanics/technical support will always come later than essential ones - Matt had to explain this common sense point to someone requesting VR support on stream the other day. TrackIR may be more widely adopted than VR, but its users are still a minority in TSW2 playerbase, hence the timing of when it comes.

    Accusing others of arrogance while displaying nothing but entitlement is a diagnosis in itself.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2021
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  32. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    TrackIR is part of the upcoming changes to the core game (Rush Hour release) \o/

    I only have one question - maybe Matt will give us an answer - will it be 6 degrees of freedom or just looking around?
     
  33. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    Six DOF
     
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  34. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    I do not know how much it will be promoted, but I would just like to add from myself - DCS World eg - it changes the perception of the game so drastically that it is difficult to describe it in words. Models at TSW are full of details and that will allow us to fully appreciate it.

    Great info. I can not wait! Thank You for the answer \o/
     
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  35. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    Yep completely agree, i've been a fan of TrackIR myself now for a lot of years :)
     
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  36. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for discussing this, but I'll save my $150 or so to buy more DLC.
     
  37. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    There are also much cheaper solutions, as long as you have a webcam. Some programs analyze face movements instead of detecting LEDs. FaceTrackNoIR e.g. BR o7
     
  38. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Here, You can test it for free:
    link
     
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  39. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    ViewTracker is excellent yes, i've used that for a fair while as well when my trackir was sick :)

    Matt.
     
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  40. fatnslo#7264

    fatnslo#7264 New Member

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    I use the Delani clip which is a poor mans Trackir that works just as good for only £49.15. It uses the free OpenTrack software and works in every game that I have tried it in including Train Simulator.
     
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  41. Kazick

    Kazick Member

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    Here's my issues/two sent's on Track IR. While my head moves my monitor doesn't. This means that ether I have to twist my eyes around or set it up so that a head movement is a lot of rotation in game. This becomes problematic as a slight glace to the left to grab my drink results my my avatar breaking his neck.

    Now if there was some way the Track IR could instead move my monitor to follow where I am looking with some sort of robotic arm that would be great. What would be even better is if the game rendered from two slightly different perspectives and then displayed that one two screens. Then rather than have some sort of expensive robotic arm, make the screens tiny and in some sort of goggles. Man, that would be super immersive and give 1:1 head moment. Too bad some sort of device like that doesn't exist and isn't quickly becoming mainstream. /s
     
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  42. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    That's the most common objection to trackir from people who haven't used it.

    The reality is that it's a scaled movement, so small movements of your head a magnified onto the screen, so you are never looking away from the screen and no necks are broken :)
     
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  43. Kazick

    Kazick Member

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    Oh I know. I've used Track IR in the past. Mostly for combat flight simulators. And personally I wasn't happy with it. I had it set up with something like 1:10 ratio. Meaning that if I moved my head to the right 1 degree, it was 10 degrees of rotation in game. This was fine so long as I kept my head perfectly still. But as soon as I tried to track an enemy aircraft the camera was all over the place. Doing a simple cross check of my gauges was next to impossible. To get my altimeter centered in my view I had to be in the exact spot between looking down to the altimeter, and looking out the back of the plane. Which was almost impossible to get to. On top of that, if I wanted to get a drink from the left side of my desk, turning my head to see my drink meant the Track IR saw a ton of head moment and had no idea what do to. Which in-turn lead to an undesirable game time.

    But from my experience with ultra wide 3 monitor set ups with out Track IR the ability to do a cross check and move my head 1:1 was great. Even if only with in a fixed but larger area. Meaning I still couldn't see 100% around me, but I could move my head and see what I needed to see. I've used this in other train sims, flight sims, racing sims, tank sims, and truck sims. Having that 1:1 head movement ratio is way more intuitive.

    About my previous statement of some sort of mythical goggles equipped with screens. I found this video of such a device being used in a flight simulator.

    If that particular unit where along to have sold an estimated 2 million units this year alone as well as similar units breaking the 5 million units sold. That might be a bit more immersive and fun that a had with some LED's on it. /s

    Jokes and sarcasm aside, I personally don't like Track IR and wont be using it. I know other players will and that's good on them. I hope that implementation of Track IR can lead to eventual VR support.
     
  44. danaceks

    danaceks New Member

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    Question - what's Track IR anyway?
     
  45. TerryBalldriver

    TerryBalldriver Member

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    Thank you DTG for bringing Track IR to TSW 2. Making it all so more immersive.
     
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  46. Pixelade

    Pixelade Member

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    I'm on my way to order it right now. Is it just the $150 one on their website? Their site doesn't really say what is all needed for it
     
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  47. tbaac

    tbaac Active Member

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    Thanks for adding TrackIR. Train sims are slightly different to flight sims or ETS2 in that you don't need to look to the side as often usually, however it is nice.
    I had a go yesterday with it and it works pretty well.
    I think I heard one one of the streams that there was a video that DTG (probbaly Matt) had put up about using it in TSW2. Did I mishear? Also (and probably OT) is there a video for using the external cameras on PC? I still seem to struggle with it and it all feels a bit clunky, whereas Matt or Sam seem to be smooth as anything with it.
    Thanks.

    edit: Actually, using TrackIR with it doesn't seem that tricky after all. When in the cab, right-clicking the mouse seems to work well because then you can use the mouse to point at things, and TrackIR to move your head. On thing that confused me initially is that if the mouse is set to not move your viewpoint (by right clicking) and then you're walking, W,A,S,D can be in the wrong direction but now I know that right-clicking will get the viewpoint back where it should be :)

    edit again: The more I use it in TSW2 the more I like it (not surprising as I hate flying without it now for example), but still. I think it is a smart move that toggling mouse-look allows you to readjust the view as well. OT, but something else that I've wanted for a while is keyboard shortcuts for unlocking the doors, and I see that y and u do this on Boston Sprinter now, very nice :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2021
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  48. NQuarter

    NQuarter New Member

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    It's great that TSW2 has TrackIR support now, but I don't know if I'm alone in this, but while on foot, and my Person is facing exactly West, when using the movement keys, the TrackIR will wildly spin about in circles.

    As oddly as it is, it only does it while facing West, any other direction, or even slight offset to West will work perfectly fine.

    Has anyone experienced this, or have heard about it?
     
  49. jackthom

    jackthom Member

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    I just decided to take the plunge and give TrackIR a try and I know it's also very useful for MSFS 2020.

    Unfortunately it's out of stock almost everywhere.

    Has anyone managed to buy one in the UK from a reputable outlet recently?
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2021 at 10:37 AM
  50. Winzarten

    Winzarten Well-Known Member

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    Same thing is also happening to me.
     

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