Train And Route Suggestions

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Anonymous, Sep 23, 2021.

  1. Anonymous

    Anonymous Member

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    New trains that would be great to see added to the game are:

    Virgin:
    - Pendolino
    - Super Voyager

    Cross Country:
    - Super Voyager

    LNER:
    - Azuma

    Routes that would be great to play with these services on are:
    -East Midlands

    Or for example:
    -London through to Leeds
    -Sheffield to York
     
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  2. aaronbrall#7894

    aaronbrall#7894 Member

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    I'm going to say no because you've given practically no information here, I know these routes and trains but for the benefit of others who don't you need to give more than "XYZ would be great"
     
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  3. dasmith1

    dasmith1 Active Member

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    Virgin is now Avanti WC plus give more details
     
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  4. Anonymous

    Anonymous Member

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    Yes, I understand Virgin went into administration in 2019 but Virgin was a great company and started services on the British railway in 1997 and thought it would be a great tribute to the franchise as this was the only brand operating the Pendolinos and Super Voyagers through the years 1997-2006 the only other company operating the Super Voyager after this time period was Cross Country
     
  5. dasmith1

    dasmith1 Active Member

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    That requires Licensing but DTG wouldn’t be able to obtain since Virgin Trains no longer exist. Plus VT never went into administration as the UK Government didn’t renew the Contract to continue on the WCML so Virgin Trains closed down which has now become Avanti WC which is run by First Trenitalia
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2021
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  6. Anonymous

    Anonymous Member

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    The routes I mentioned were just an example, of course Virgin operated many more services than just these few. But, the Virgin Pendelino and the Virgin Super Voyager were 2 of the most incredible master craftsmanship on the British railway.

    Some people may not know these two trains but they would get a new introduction to 2 brand new class of trains that have built the British history to present day on our railways.
     
  7. Anonymous

    Anonymous Member

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    Thankyou for your comment.

    We do have the livery designer in TSW2 so, we could always make our own. But, Avanti and Cross Country are now operating the Pendolinos and Super Voyagers and felt that these two trains were masterpieces seen on the British railway and would be great to see in TSW2 with the quality DTG put into the game.
     
  8. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Active Member

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    I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see Voyagers and Pendolinos in game (I have the North Wales dlc for the older Train Sim, even), but I'm very surprised to see this much positive nostalgia about them. They were interesting trains, for sure, but very much a symbol of compromise and defeat for British railways. A tech developed for the APT, scrapped because BR weren't properly funded, brought back to the UK 20 years later in a worse version by a horrible company that underlined every mistake of privatization. It's certainly an interesting chapter in UK rail history, so for that reason I'd like to see them too - but I'd prefer to see their dad, the APT, and a promotion of the genius Alan Wickens.
     
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  9. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    In my time I've had a ride on both the Cross Country Voyagers, and an Avanti Pendolino.

    The Voyagers were/are... Decent.
    One time the AC failed, so Glasgow - Berwick was a really horrible journey to take that day.

    As for the Pendolino, that one was much more recent, being only this June, and I must say it is much nicer.

    London to Glasgow (with a change to LNR between Stoke & Crewe) obviously left myself a bit painful, but that's what happens I suppose.

    Would I like them in TSW? Yes.

    Both Companies (Cross Country and Avanti (VTWC/VTEC don't exist anymore, and thus much harder to be licensed) were shown in a file list that was leaked, showing the licenses DTG hold, and put into TSW.
    On top of that, both have appeared in Train Simulator - although the Cross Country 220 was pulled from steam, however.

    Also, please add more information about the locos, and tell us what route(s) you'd like to see for these locos :)
     
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  10. formulabee#1362

    formulabee#1362 Well-Known Member

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    Virgin didn’t go into administration. Stagecoach pulled out due to pensions so virgin left the rail industry.
     
  11. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    The problem isn't whether VTWC or VTEC exist, the problem is that Virgin (the parent company) won't license the logo, hence why we have debranded versions in TS1
    Not an issue of course because we don't NEED Virgin on the trains, when the units are successfully run in debranded and rebranded forms (Arriva XC and Avanti).

    I don't doubt a pendo and a voyager will come to TSW, but not necessarily soon as both need long runs to justify their existence and we don't have long runs in TSW (though we have the ICE in Germany so who knows, a Southern Scottish route might do)
     
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  12. Nick Y

    Nick Y Well-Known Member

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    I rode on Voyager units not long after they were first released between Cheltenham/Birmingham and Leeds. At the time they were run by Virgin Cross Country and they weren't too bad. There was a lot of rail noise if you were sat over the bogies I seem to remember.
    They also had a distinct turbo diesel sound when accelerating. I never experienced any issues with the AC or strange smells though.

    I play TS21 over on the PC and there's 2 versions of the Voyagers/Meridians made by Just Trains (and they are branded). I have to say, they got the sounds spot on and the first time I drove one and set off out of the station, it took me right back to the many times I had travelled on them when going to/coming from uni.

    As for the Pendolinos, I haven't travelled on them so couldn't comment. I have seen them a few times though and I can actually remember having a road near my sisters house blocked off whilst they brought the Pendos to the Bombardier site on the back of a massive low loader. That was when they were just being fitted out and not actually using the network.

    I'd love to see both these units in TSW at some point but they'll have to get the brand licensing for them (Avanti for the Pendolinos and EMR/XC/Avanti for the Voyagers/Meridians).

    As a side note on the Meridians, they are supposedly going to be returned to the leasing company at the end of next year as EMR will be swapping over to newer units (Class 810).

    If the meridians/voyagers were to come to a route in TSW, I'd love it if it was the midland mainline at Derby going through to Sheffield as both XC and EMR could be used.
    The pendolinos only operate on the WCML so hoping we get a decent part of that route at some point.
     
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  13. Wolfovizer

    Wolfovizer Well-Known Member

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    I would love to see all of these :)

    That would be perfect in my opinion :)
     
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  14. Anonymous

    Anonymous Member

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    Hello,
    The Super Voyagers were built in the year I was born. That year being 2001. And having spent much time travelling, between the years of 2004-2007 from York to Sheffield on them, this is the reason I have so much nostalgia for them because they take me back to my childhood.

    They too, along with the pendolinos, were Virgins 2 most popular trains. And despite having them in TS2021. I don't have a gaming PC and so I am unable to play Train Simulator. But if DTG were to perhaps copy the models over from Train Simualtor and Enhance them for TSW I would certainly buy these two DLC packs.

    Thankyou for your comment
     
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  15. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    Ignoring VTEC, these are the only trains Virgin-operated. If literally nobody liked them, they'd still class as the Most-popular.

    Same applies to Avanti - which is far more likely to be in TSW.
     
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  16. Anonymous

    Anonymous Member

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    Hello ARuscoe,
    You see, I don't have a gaming PC and so I don't own a version of Train Simulator. I just feel that the classes of trains I mentioned are a great examples of Master Craftsmanship since Virgin serviced them on our British rails for 22 Years.

    And would just love to see DTG's Enhancement touches on both the Super Voyager and the Pendolinos in hope they bring them into TSW2

    Thankyou for your comment
     
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  17. Anonymous

    Anonymous Member

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  18. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    That is true, Virgin's other franchises, Virgin Cross-Country and VTEC had HSTs, however VTWC didn't (unless I've totally missed some information).
     
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  19. JealousSheep768

    JealousSheep768 Well-Known Member

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    Vtwc did have some HST but they were all replaced by the voyagers and pendolinos. Because vtwc and vtcc operated effectively as on franchise during the modernization process they were used to operate a few services[​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2021
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  20. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Some people get hung up on the liveries, hence wanting the red and black (and grey) of VT, but the 221s look good in Avanti and in XC
    The pendos aren't my favourite anyway but are fine in the Avanti colours
     
  21. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I am not too sure about the Voyagers, but the IC225 (Class 91 + Mk.4) has much more in common with the APT compared to the Class 390, you could even say that actually the IC225 is the result of the APT program, and to some extent even the HST.

    It's a general misconception that FIAT just bought APT's patent to build Pendolino, but that is just wrong, it's true that some tech of the APT went into the Pendolino, but it's very limited.

    280px-Fiat_pendolino.jpg
    This is FIAT's first prototype of a Tilting train, the Y0160, designed in 1970 and built in 1971/72, so almost exactly parallel to APT-E, however as you can see the development from here was much more streamlined, we didn't have to worry about switching from a Turbine to Overhead electric traction for example.

    280px-FS_ETR.401.jpg
    This is ETR401, the equivalent of the APT-P it was a more refined prototype, this entered service in 1976, 4 years before APT-P, and it worked even without any input from APT.

    APT only had an influence on the later production model which ended up entering in revenue passenger service, the ETR450.
    Ancona_-_ETR.450.jpg

    APT and Pendolino used two completely different systems for tilting, the british decided to go all out and use the first actual microprocessor to run an electronic system to control the tilt only using accelerometers.

    Pendolino used a electro-mechanical system comprised of accelerometers and gyroscopes (here all lines have superelevation, or banking, so the curve could be detected using a gyroscope earlier, allowing for a smoother transition from level to fully tilted state), something that the british engineers couldn't do simply due to the lack of banking on the WCML.

    They were mostly parallel projects run by brilliant individuals, with none of the two sides looking over each other's shoulder to try and steal IP, while it's undeniable that some of the ATP work fell into FIAT's hands to refind their train, it's not like Pendolino is just a stolen APT with a different body shell.

    APT also had another myriad of problems, from the brakes to the pneumatic system that controlled the doors (which had the tendency to freeze at low temperature and leave the doors inop). APT-P as the name suggest was a prototype so of course it had problems, but the real problem was that a prototype was pushed into service, way before it should, also it didn't help the fact that it was so much different from the APT-E (which itself hadn't done a lot of miles to begin with).

    I also think that superelevation was added to the WCML during the renovation on the early 2000s before the Pendolinos entered service.

    While I love the APT and I respect the engineers behind the project it tried to innovate too much at once, while under a far from ideal political and economic climate.

    To balance the off topic, I would like the Class 390 in TSW, as well as the WCML.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2021
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  22. Anonymous

    Anonymous Member

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    Hello,
    Thankyou for broadening my knowledge. I am from Sheffield and I haven't travelled on many lines of the railway. And the only two companies I have been with are Cross Country and their parent company Virgin.

    And have only ever travelled between Sheffield and York by Train.
     
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  23. Anonymous

    Anonymous Member

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    Hello FD1003,

    I take your point and thankyou for your comment it is very much appreciated.

    The Super Voyagers and Pendolinos are just a reminder of my childhood and as I have already said to someone else. Being that the 2 classes I have mentioned are 2 of the most brilliant and best looking trains to have ever serviced the British Railways.

    And being that Cross Country and their parent company is a British Company led by Richard Branson I just believe it is fitting for DTG to introduce these amazing classes to TSW2
     
  24. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Don't worry your comment wasn't directed at you, it's just frustrating seeing people discrediting so much Pendolino, especially in the UK, while both projects were extremely innovative and ended up revolutionizing a big part of the railway landscape, to an extent we might never see again. Also why keep coming back to that narrative? We eventually sold all the IP to Alstom anyway...

    I also personally have nothing against Virgin Trains, they were one of the major reasons behind the big refurbishment of the WCML, arguably without them it could still be the same railway it was in the 1800s, but obviously I'm not an expert in this sector.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2021
  25. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Active Member

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    Nobody said that they did, certainly not me. Undeniable that with more funding (and no, BR weren't trying to do too much at once, they were hamstrung by pitiful funding and not being allowed to spend their own money), the UK would have been well placed to be pioneers in rail once again, rather than importing trains. The APT was incredibly close to viability, but privatisation was stirring and it got abandoned.

    Curious what you mean about Virgin causing the upgrade of WCML - as a TOC, they didn't manage track.
     
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  26. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Definitely, but you have to admit, it was cutting edge and extremely ambitious, you are right, under the right conditions, with more time and more money it surely could have gone differently.

    About Virgin, no obviously they didn't do the trackwork themselves, but the improvements to WCML were done with Virgin and the Class 390 in mind, initially to up to the speed to 140mph (and using moving block signalling), later scaled back to 125mph with standard signalling:

    "By the dawn of the 1990s, it was clear that further modernisation was required. Initially this took the form of the InterCity 250 project. But then the privatisation of BR intervened, under which Virgin Trains won a 15-year franchise in 1996 for the running of long-distance express services on the line. The modernisation plan unveiled by Virgin and the new infrastructure owner Railtrack involved the upgrade and renewal of the line to allow the use of tilting Pendolino trains with a maximum line speed of 140 mph (225 km/h), in place of the previous maximum of 110 mph (177 km/h). Railtrack estimated that this upgrade would cost £2 billion, be ready by 2005, and cut journey times to 1 hour for London to Birmingham and 1 hr 45 mins for London to Manchester."

    It could be argued that without Virgin and their 390s there would have been very little reason for Railtrack (later Network Rail) to initiate this project.
     
  27. Anonymous

    Anonymous Member

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    Hello,

    I am a very big fan of both the Virgin Pendolinos and the Super Voyagers. I grew up with these trains and I personally believe that Virgin were the first ones to bring the networks rail companies have today.

    For example. If it wasn't for Virgin. Avanti wouldn't be operating the routes it does today.

    Virgin Trains was founded in the 1970's but the mainline for Virgin trains was London to Edinburgh and had only been operating this service from 1997-2019.

    So, I believe that the companies running on the British rails today have a lot to thank Virgin for.

    Thankyou for your comment, it is very much appreciated
     
  28. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Active Member

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    The upgrades were initially proposed in British Rail's InterCity 250 project in the early 1980s, long before Richard Branson had thought about owning trains. So, in my ideal world BR gets proper funding scenario, these upgrades would've been done with the APT in mind before the ultimate construction of what we call HS2 now. Point is, they were done in mind of the 390s because that was what was running on the line then, rather than some grand unified plan. Like so much of British rail history, a project that started under public ownership ran out of cash before being resurrected in a greatly reduced form by the private successors.

    Not the route in question, but as an example of how the nationalised company was being cut off at the knees - BR had to spend several years putting forward a case to be allowed to spend *their own money* in electrifying the ECML, after initially wanting to do it at the same time as the West. In this context it's easy to understand why the APT got so close without being finalised.

    Don't get me wrong - the trains used by Virgin were interesting solutions to the UK network's unique issues, but to many the Voyagers and Virgin Pendolinos hold a similar place to the Pacer. The best of a bad situation, something we got instead of the better things we were promised. So again, yes, I'd play with them, in the same way I have the Pacer for Train Simulator.
     
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  29. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Active Member

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    I think you have your dates mixed up. Virgin Trains didn't exist in any form before 1997, and the WCML has been a thing since 1912 at least.

    I understand you have fond memories of the branding, and that's ok, but please - nobody has anything to thank Virgin Trains for. They got paid a lot of money to operate fixed routes, had a reputation for being late, and lost the contract because they simply weren't very good at managing the service. So really - if it wasn't for Virgin themselves, they might still be running the routes today.
     
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  30. formulabee#1362

    formulabee#1362 Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with you because they revolutionised travel along the wcml. The 390 was a game breaker at the time and combined with the super voyager, replaced, ageing, dirty and smelly coaching stock. Their difference was so huge that it lives on, in Avanti west coast
     
  31. JealousSheep768

    JealousSheep768 Well-Known Member

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    Well than why are Avanti trying too replace the voyagers with 80x
     
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  32. formulabee#1362

    formulabee#1362 Well-Known Member

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    Franchise commitments, set by dft
     
  33. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I see your point, I said that I liked Virgin because another company might have just cancelled the project, but no matter how good or bad Virgin is, surely it's not the golden age of rail transport in the UK, and especially the Railtrack era was a complete disaster. Also at this point it's kind of official that privatisation failed, so I get what you are trying to say.
     
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  34. JealousSheep768

    JealousSheep768 Well-Known Member

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    Well why does dft want them replaced? I do find voyagers horrible
     
  35. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Because if everything is a Hitachi A train then they all have the same parts and maintenance systems, which Hitachi will manage, reducing the cost overall of running the trains.
    "Non-standard" fleets have higher costs overall, so if you can have everything similar it does cut things down
     
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  36. JealousSheep768

    JealousSheep768 Well-Known Member

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    So they all want cracking trains! I mean there showing signs of their age the 80x's but they are only 2 years old. Let alone the fact I find Pacers more comfortable
     
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  37. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Active Member

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    Please, don't say "smelly", too many memories of breathing in raw sewage on the Virgin and XCountry services XD
     
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  38. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Just about all trains have "bedding in issues", even the Pacers :)
     
  39. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Active Member

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    There's teething troubles, and there's poisoning the passengers! Hitachis seem to be a disaster so far, but you in the UK are stuck with them I guess.
     
  40. 43050

    43050 Active Member

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    They revolutionized the WCML like the HST did the whole network, the Castles, Gresleys and Staniers did before and they replaced trains that were built in the 60s/70s, as someone who grew up with them you may not know how much more light and airy the stock was in which they replaced. Loco hauled also had the option to add or remove coaches depending on demand, time of day or time of year. a four car or five car voyager was a very poor option for the holiday trains from the north in summer.

    The revolutionizing was the £1 million per mile investment on upgrading the WCML to the same standards as the East Coast (125 mph)
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2021
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  41. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Active Member

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    I'd forgotten this aspect - though in fairness we seem to be moving towards multiple units across passenger services, most are longer than 5 cars. I can tell you exactly what the carpet was like on those trains because I, like many, had so much time sitting on it!
     
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  42. Anonymous

    Anonymous Member

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    Hello Rybnicki,

    Thankyou for your comment, its much appreciated. No. I definatley don't have my dated mixed up. Virgin Trains were launched in the 1970's but attained their first major line in 1997.

    I have always been a massive fan of the Virgin Empire Richard Branson has created. Virgin trains, Virgin Atlantic, Virgin Galactic, the latest business from Virgin is the cruise industry being Virgin Voyages.

    I too, happen to be a fan of the other companies they've been in business with, those being Cross Country and Stagecoach.

    Virgin, Cross Country and Stagecoach are all still big companies and all still operate. The difference is that Virgin don't service the British Rails anymore.

    Thankyou for your comment
     
  43. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    Virgin Group - as a business - was formed in 1970 (In the February), whilst Virgin Rail Group - the subsidiary (formerly) responsible for, and also the (former) operator of Virgin Crosscountry, Virgin Trains West Coast, and Virgin Trains East Coast.

    So Virgin's Rail adventures certainly started in '97.
     
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  44. Anonymous

    Anonymous Member

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    Hello TrainSimPlayer,

    Yes, as i've already read Virgin's forums they started plans for the Railway in 1973 but didn't attain their first and main line until 1997, that being the East Coast Mainline

    Thankyou for your comment, its much appreciated
     
  45. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Active Member

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    How did Virgin start plans for a railway company when they were just a record shop and Britain was 20 years from privatising the trains?

    Just FYI also - CrossCountry (as opposed to Virgin Cross Country) are an Arriva Group company, who in fact were rival bidders against Virgin Rail when the franchise was created.

    Anyway you seem utterly convinced in this notion of Branson and Virgin Rail as visionaries, so I won't go on.
     
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  46. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Virgin Atlantic, the Virgin airline, was founded in 1984, so they were more than "just a record shop" for over a decade before VT was founded
     
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