Train Sim World 2 - Calling At Cornwall

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG Natster, Oct 15, 2021.

  1. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    :):)

    It's ear!y days, I suppose, but it does seem that, so far, third-party routes have been in effect released as " trialware ". Unreal may be more of a challenge than DTG envisioned or perhaps the level of involvement and support during development is insufficient, not to mention pre-release testing. I think the release hold up speaks volumes, especially after Matt suggested that the effect of such delays were " massive ", though I'm not sure be was including third-party releases.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2021
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  2. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Looking at a few early release streams, the Class 150 sounds awful. Specifically the acceleration sounds - it just sounds like modified idling sounds badly stitched together. There’s no sense of power or weight to it at all.
     
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  3. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    I know you are a recommended person when it comes to assessments. Do DTG ever listen to your feedback?
     
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  4. Jeannot41

    Jeannot41 Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately no, DTG only listens to its money
     
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  5. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    I have noticed that. There was me thinking the sounds, physics would be touched before the new release date but no, just 'A' fixes which is highly disappointing. They will lose money eventually, let's hope they do until things get issued properly and with care.
     
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  6. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    A bit harsh, I think. We do have some evidence from the streams and posts on the forums that DTG does hear our feedback. Whether they act on particular issues that are raised here is a different question, though we do get fixes from time to time.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2021
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  7. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    Maybe DTG can help Rivet get the most out of the AP sound files. We know the AP sound files sound great, but for whatever reason, Rivet didn’t incorporate them to sound the same.
     
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  8. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    It’s a real shame especially when you look at the work and love that goes into the German routes and trains.
    Rivet seem to be the session musicians of TSW, there to make up the numbers but no real heart in it.
     
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  9. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    Nonetheless the sales pitch starts again in just over 30 mins
     
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  10. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    Rivet screwed the AP Sounds seriously
     
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  11. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    I really want to pass on my honest feedback for these sounds to someone at DTG/Rivet but nobody listened... I can live with the immediate moving off (physics) if this cannot be fixed. How many people have noticed the poor sounds and where the heck can we go to get this resolved? I am not on PC so I cannot get a patch, It is really unforgiving.
     
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  12. conniethunder

    conniethunder Well-Known Member

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    Let's not point the finger at DTG for pulling the plug on it's release, it could be Rivet's decision as the developer to 'polish' the route before it's release. After all the negative feedback recently, I would hope that this is the case and fair play to them if it is.
    I'm not sure how much 'say' DTG has as just the publisher.
     
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  13. thundergaming11

    thundergaming11 Well-Known Member

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    I think it was DTGs QA that pointed out several issues so they made the decision to pull the plug. But I agree there should be no pointing of fingers. If issues got found then they're right to point them out and fix it.
     
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  14. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    They screwed the mixing and application of the sounds.
    My problem with the 150 as it stands is this. Whenever I've been stood next to a 150 pulling away the driver puts it in high notch (5 or so), the engine revvs up and stays revved as it pulls slowly away, with the driver flooring it soon after getting going, and leaving the power there until it sinks from view. With Matt driving today the engine sounded like a car, revving up quietly as the speed built.

    Maybe it's the way Matt drives it, but I prefer the TS1 version driven by PTG - go to about 4:15 in this vid
     
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  15. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Well i I watched the first 30 minutes of the stream and then I had to stop. What I heard was a rather rambling monologue about the reasons for the delay, dancing around the subject and leaving me none the wiser. I still don't know any specifics, but then maybe that was the point. Why try to explain something if you can't or don't want to?
    Why not say simply we found some things that led to a decision to delay the release? That took me about 6 seconds to type, much less to read, instead of the 15 or 20 minutes on the stream.

    As for Jasper's flat out statement that the sounds won't be fixed for the launch, that was accepted without demur. Someone on the stream should have asked: Why not?. I'm sure a certain someone who was not there would have asked.
    What he should have said is that the route will not be released until the sounds are fixed, no matter how long it takes because the sound problem is the main reason why many people are choosing not to buy it. Doesn't make any sense, business wise.

    Oh well, what do I know? I'm just a humble customer.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2021
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  16. anthonyruk

    anthonyruk New Member

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    I think Rivet were thrown under a bus in tonight's stream. How can they focus on AWS not being audiable outside the cab (like it is on TS Classic), yet on BML the AWS doesn't even work in the cab?

    Matt said he wouldn't play a route where the safety systems don't work, so I assume he's not playing BML?

    If this was a first party DTG route it would of been released and the stream wouldn't of of been so critical.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2021
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  17. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    I agree, it seems like they always throw their third party developers under the bus when they should be working with and sticking up for their third party developers.
     
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  18. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Let's not forget that 3rd party developers are deciding for themselves what to do, when to do it, how to do it and have creative control
    2nd party devs are the ones where DTG are telling them what to do when and why, so the ones "at fault" for the state of the route and the train are Rivet
    So if Rivet are saying they're happy with the train and route as it is then that's on them. The main point I got from last night's stream was that QA testing was going on on the day it was supposed to be released...
    Think about that, it was in primary testing when the release had already been uploaded to stores...
     
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  19. fezza

    fezza Active Member

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    DTG are clearly not happy with Rivet.

    However why delay and then say you are not going to fix the main thing (sound) that people are complaining about? I wonder if behind the scenes DTG have demanded certain comprehensive changes, but Rivet have refused and there is stalemate? The lack of a new release date is worrying.
     
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  20. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Don't forget that DTG may not have control over release dates on console so it may well be the case that they now have to "book another slot" with PS and XB stores to then have that date in hand. They've also got the 313 upcoming, so that might put things back a bit also.
    Either way, the "issues" they pointed out last night we're particularly game breaking from what I heard
     
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  21. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    And how do you think this person you revere got started? This is Rivet's third route and much longer than the others. Give them a break while they learn. They've shown signs of listening to their community. They're very responsive on their forums now.

    DTG and Rivet made a good call to hold back. They've never done it before so good on them.

    Paul
     
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  22. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    That is how it works. You need to book time with the console QA team to check your build before it goes out, but they will also have to get it into a QA slot internally after Rivet finish.
     
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  23. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Sorry can’t agree with this. Rivet were born out of Thomson who had considerable experience producing some quite good stuff for TS. Charging £25 for crappy add ons with little or no intention of fixing the problems is not the way to “git gud”. Part of the problem with TSW that I do concede is that with little or no capacity for people to cut their teeth doing freeware, the payware developers are chucked in the deep end. However that does not mean there should be a blasé approach to quality.
     
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  24. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    I look at it this way. If it had been released, the likelihood, from previous experience is that the required fixes would have taken months, if ever, to be released. If they pull the release, then Rivet get no money from it until the fixes are implemented, thus ensuring they get their fingers out and do them pretty darned quick.
     
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  25. locobilly

    locobilly Member

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    Perhaps charge for the dlc in a consummate manner with the developers experience? So if that studio has produced several top notch add-ons in the past then it goes for £24 or whatever, but if the dev is fairly new and liable to make mistakes because of it, lower their entry price for dlc to say £16.
    That would encourage them to work harder on each release and get it right. After all in the real world we pay for services based on quality and the experience of the company concerned, hence tenders go out for many quotes, each applicant basing their price on how professional their job will be which is based on their past work and experience.
    This would make it easier for us to accept there being one or two things wrong from a less experienced company because the mistakes might have been allowed for in the price.
    DTG please drop the rigid price structure for dlc regardless of the experience and competence of the supplier.
     
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  26. Nielsen

    Nielsen Well-Known Member

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    The first preview stream left a surprisingly great impression, but this second stream yesterday was unnecessary.
     
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  27. Aldarion

    Aldarion Member

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    locobilly, I understand perfectly your sugestion ( more fluid in terms of quality vs price) but I think that is really a choice on DTG part.
    A choice between what you described and a rigid system with perfectly clear and expected prices and a standard on quality.
    First of all, a less experienced third-party DLC developer must have the necessary motivation for meeting the standards and earn his share. Otherwise, it cannot play in this League...

    Second, more experience developers might have a few tricks up their sleave and make us buy more from that particular developer than from a lesser experienced one, but either way, a buyer will get something guaranteed with the expected quality.

    This is my vision of it. IMO DTG should spend some time verifying the quality of DLC developed by 3rd party, giving them some slack has a reputation is built on the required platform.
     
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  28. screamfan

    screamfan Member

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    This is not the first time that Rivet Games has completely messed up a DLC, just look at Arosa even today the number of unfixed bugs but also the trees and mountains a big joke. This is the second time in a row that Rivet failed to produce a DLC of an acceptable level. How many chances will DTG give Rivet to improve? I think DTG's credibility only deteriorates after each release of a DLC produced by Rivet Games.
    Is there really no other studio that could do better than Rivet in the video game industry?
     
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  29. djcwey

    djcwey Well-Known Member

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    Whilst we might construe that the release being pulled is indicative of a change given TrainSim-Matt stepping up in his new role as Executive Producer it still seems like 'smoke and mirrors'. If inaudible alarms are "A" list priorities why has the TPWS at Reading on GWE not been fixed? Incredibly annoying to almost complete a flawless trip to be stopped halfway along the platform at your destination.

    I'm glad the community is being listened to but frankly the Q&A on Tuesday night was like listening to a conversation in a pub - there seemed to be lots of talk but little of substance. There wasn't any particular indication of a structured Action Plan. I have worked in an organisation that was ISO accredited so maybe my expectation of structured processes is different. To be told the Beta testers weren't tested LBN under simulated user conditions is a bit bewildering and a run from Victoria to Gatwick using Playstation WASN'T performed is puzzling?
     
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  30. kekanha#4892

    kekanha#4892 Active Member

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    I think we are the beta testers mate. They use us like beta testers. Thats the true.
     
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  31. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately they've already flatly stated that they won't fix the most egregious problem, the loco sounds, before release, whenever that may be.
     
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  32. WVUadam

    WVUadam Well-Known Member

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    Well I brought it early so I wouldn't have to wait again. Glad to have the class 150/2.
     
  33. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    It’s a shame you can’t walk down to the beach at St Ives. I would have liked to paddle in the sea. It would have been good for immersion. :D
     
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  34. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    Why should we pay full price for a product they are making while 'learning on the job'? You wouldn't pay an intern the same salary as a manager or executive with much more experience so why should we pay the same for a route from Rivet? In relation to recent releases from DTG, this route should be £19.99 tops.
     
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  35. locobilly

    locobilly Member

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    Being able to increase their dlc sale price from say £16 up to £24 would concentrate the studio's mind on getting it right next time. Then perhaps once they'd achieved 2 consecutive releases that were of an A standard then their future add-ons could gain the A Standard higher price for dlc.
    At the moment companies like RG have no real incentive to get it right first time do they? Their money will still flow in regardless of the quality of the release. The alternative of course just being more of the same which reflects badly on DTG.
     
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  36. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    Please help me with the Collectables I can’t find 6 but I visited all Stations twice, and the Achievement is 0,00%
     
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  37. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    As in the trophy or the counter for it?
     
  38. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    Achievement is the trophy/Gamerscore and the counter said 0,00% got this unlocked
     
  39. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    You got a point and you could add GWE. Although tbf there were other concerns too. I think like you DTG should also put their standards on what they are releasing as well as third party.
     
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  40. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    Whether they have creative freedom or not, I do think DTG should be behind them for example the 187 preview stream DTG made it a point to say how they couldn’t get anyone from Skyhook to preview it. Instead of just saying they couldn’t work out a time they made it sound like Skyhook just didn’t want to show it. I think they just need to act more like a team and partners.
     
  41. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The difference is that on BML, AWS works most of the time. Only occasionally is the warning horn not heard, and I suspect that it's because with UE's mere 32 sound channels, and the very comprehensive sound work on the 377 and 387, that all 32 are in use and there's no room (But the sunflower still functions correctly)

    If you want to talk about a DTG release where the safety systems are completely FUBAR, look at Boston.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2021
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  42. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    On PS5, TSW doesn't use the percentage tracking feature, so a Trophy is either awarded or not. Not sure if they're doing it properly on Xbox.
     
  43. zefreak

    zefreak Active Member

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    I want to play Boston so bad but I hate driving without safety systems and it is completely frustrating in its current state. I don't understand why thats not made a priority for DTG - it's core functionality like that which should be prioritized over something like fixing the catenary. Effort should also have gone into the cruise control - get the train correct first and then worry about the environment in my opinion.
     
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  44. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure Brandon finished with the catenary changes a long time ago. Have we seen an update yet? I doubt if the cruise control will ever be activated on the Sprinter, never heard it mentioned anywhere by DTG except once for about 2 seconds on the preview stream.. And the signaling and safety systems, as solicitr said, are SUSFU.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2021
  45. Southern Driver

    Southern Driver Active Member

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    A few observations.

    Class 150/2:
    • external door open buttons, none inside.
    • TPWS MCB but the unit is meant to be based in 1991 when TPWS didn’t exist.
    • Guards panels don’t work, so no way to close the doors outside the despatch menu
    • Vigilance doesn’t work
    Route:
    • Scenery is fine, very believable
    • Penzance Platform 3 doesn’t exist on the scenario planner
    • no direct services from Penzance to St Ives but I’m fairly sure I’ve been on such services
    • No London services? No HSTs or loco hauled on the main line. Affects the realism in my experience.

    My conclusion is that for £24.99 the novelty will wear off quite quickly. At the same price as Brighton Main Line this doesn’t really make sense, you get less for your buck and some attention to the detail is missing. I’m fortunate as I can afford it, but if someone had saved up for it I’d understand their disappointment.
     
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  46. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    What I mean by giving them a break is that they've started listening to their player community - they're now very responsive on their forums. They've started fixing Arosa, they've said they'll work on the sounds for the 1938 stock. They are doing good things that will improve the delivery and quality of current and future DLC. They're a tiny organisation it will take them a bit to get it right with the resources they've got but they seem to understand the importance of it.
     
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  47. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    If you don't think it's worth the full price, just wait until it's in a sale, by which point they should have fixed its launch issues, there may be new DLC or layers available, and it'll be worth the full amount — then you're getting an even better deal. :)
     
  48. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Well I think differently on that. Make it part of the publishing contract that someone from the 3rd party team must be present at the preview and launch day streams, and by "someone" I mean someone who is capable, knowledgeable and competent. If the 3rd party dev can't do this then they should be PAYING DTG to do their PR, because DTG are the ones using their staff (who are paid) and their airtime to show this stuff
    I am very dubious about Skyhook's commitment when they can't spare someone in 2021 for four hours over two sessions for something they expect to make money from
     
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  49. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    My point is that DTG saying that did make you feel dubious about Skyhooks commitment to preview the 187.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2021
  50. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Until the time that they achieve the required quality level I assume you expect them to only pay 2/3 of their workforce, that the studio only pay 2/3 of their rent and 2/3 of their utility bills, that Sony, Steam, Microsoft, Epic and DTG only take 2/3 of their usual cut. That is what only charging 2/3 of the price for their product would need to be able to produce it. I’m afraid things don’t work that way in the real world. They need to charge full price to pay all the costs of making the DLC in full.
     
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