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Train Sim World 2 - Cathcart Commuter

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG Natster, May 27, 2021.

  1. thundergaming11

    thundergaming11 Well-Known Member

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    Yep fixed display. But Matt has explained its to do with their current PIS system which they hope to continue improving.
     
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  2. thundergaming11

    thundergaming11 Well-Known Member

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    Matt has said a few times he's using a Dev build and that the audio team are still working on a few things. Watch next weeks stream which will be a shipping build and we'll see if these issues have been fixed.
     
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  3. MYG92

    MYG92 Well-Known Member

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    And on console I think Xbox One
     
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  4. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I agree - it looks stunning (from what we have seen) - but the development has not yet been concluded.

    So they can't have tested it yet - and there is less than two weeks - just eight working days - to complete the current dev build, test it on PC, test it on XBox and Playstation, and then reproduce and respond to any QA issues, and then finalise the shipping build, test it again on all platforms, give it a QC confirmation, and then deliver the depot to Steam, Microsoft and Sony for them to run their QA and hardware compatibility and certification tests, and then get it published, ready for sale.

    There isn't enough time. So the release should be postponed.

    When the DLC has been completed, they can then just inform us of a realistic release date a few weeks in advance, and we will all then get a wonderful working DLC, which will get a rapturous reception.

    But if people start pre-ordering this for a release date that is too early, then those people will just get upset if there is a delay, so the pressure to release will be immense - and it just isn't going to be possible for the DLC to be right, out of the box, on 10th June.

    DTG can choose, right now, to postpone the release until the DLC has a chance to be ready to ship.
     
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  5. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yes. That's the problem. The final shipping build should be ready by now, for a release in eight working days, because the publication process (with Valve, Microsoft and Sony) has a lead time. As does the testing cycle.
     
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  6. taybarker20

    taybarker20 Active Member

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    Must be set in 2017 the route
     

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  7. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    The map has no labels on it because they haven’t updated the map, that’s hardly relevant to this route, so unlikely that would get answered on a busy stream. The old (current) passengers are on this route because the new passengers are coming with Rush Hour later in the year, and the faq for Rush Hour states that only the Rush Hour routes will have the new passengers initially. There are no kilted passengers in this route because it uses the same passengers as other routes, and no new models would be made for this one route just before the whole system is updated later, so that’s probably why that wasn’t answered. Over a thousand people were watching the stream and lots of questions were asked and answered by both Matt and JD. But you have the answers now, so all is good.
     
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  8. MetrolinkF125#916

    MetrolinkF125#916 Well-Known Member

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    According to the stream today, the class 314 comes with the ScotRail blue livery. But i noticed the pink brush on the top left corner of the loco box...

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    That was another blue one. Possibly driving from the other end of the train but Matt didn’t know.
     
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  10. james64

    james64 Well-Known Member

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    Glad to know negativity and pessimism prevails as ever on this forum.

    After watching the stream I think it looks fantastic, hardly any complaints. The audio did seem quiet in the cab but during the exterior shots the 314 sounded fantastic. Glasgow Central looks beautiful and isn't as barren as I feared, and the rest of the route looks stunning.

    I'm not too bothered about the PIS being buggy. This is a dev build after all and even then, it's hardly a game breaking bug.

    Super happy about the Scottish announcer, the most authentic for any British route so far. Can anyone confirm if it's the same voice used irl on ScotRail stations? It certainly sounds like it to me.
     
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  11. bakedpotatos.jm

    bakedpotatos.jm Well-Known Member

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    No. Not in real life.
     
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  12. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    All only as AI trains, which would run between Glasgow Central and a portal. DTG are definitely not going to build rolling stock that isn't drivable.
     
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  13. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    For the same reason there are no passengers in lederhosen on German routes

    The "new passengers" are dependent on the game upgrade which will release simultaneously with Rush Hour. Matt and Adam have explained that routes will have to be modified individually to take advantage of the new passenger AI. So, no and no.

    The 2D map's lack of labels is a complaint going back to the beginning of TSW. Matt claims it's "really hard" to change that; at any rate there are no current plans to fix the 2D maps.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2021
  14. thundergaming11

    thundergaming11 Well-Known Member

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    they were still working on the shipping build this morning to fix the PIS issue which Matt said will be fixed on release.
     
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  15. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    If it's undergoing testing, then by definition it's not a final shipping build.
     
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  16. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    Is it prototypical that on the approach to Glasgow, none of the AWS ramps are functional? For some signals, I haven't even seen them on the tracks, is that prototypical or is the train routed on a wrong path?
     
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  17. Shaun123

    Shaun123 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, for a crowded junction or approach sometimes there are no AWS ramps. Birmingham New Street another example.
     
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  18. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    The maps have no labels because the maps in TSW have never had labels, and there's nothing on the roadmap to say they're working on the map unless it's part of the core update coming in August (but we have no details on that)

    The passengers are the old ones from what we saw on stream last night
    They won't update automatically. For new tech to come to a route Adam's team have to work on it, but given this is going to be "a new route when rush hour comes" it'll be easier to do as the rest of the tech is up to date, but they might not get round to it til later
    The same goes for kilts. Until they update what people wear, it won't be added into this route
     
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  19. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    Why are people so negative before they’ve even seen the final build. They have given us a stream showing what to expect using a dev build. They have said the issues would be complete upon release. Yet still people are saying “No it can’t possibly be complete because it needs to be tested and it won’t have been in that time”. How do you know that?

    How do you know the potential release build isn’t already being tested as we speak? They are not going to show us a build that is currently in testing as it might go wrong in the stream. They are going to show us the latest stable build even if some features are missing (which they have acknowledged). Attitudes shown in this thread are likely to discourage DTC to show us any preview streams before release date in the future.

    What we have seen looks pretty damned good to me. Let’s reserve final judgement until we have at least seen next week’s stream which should be a release build.
     
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  20. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Salient point being "for you"
    The problem is that a lot of the UK rail stock is similar to other rail stock simply because of the three power systems, different classes being the same but with different number of cars etc etc. From your way of speaking I would say a 153 is a recycled 156 for example.

    DTG admitted a few weeks back that they simply didn't think that doing similar stock all the time would not "make a different experience" (which seems blatantly obvious to just about everyone else) so hopefully they'll move away from electrostars and go do something a bit different, like a pacer or a sprinter

    To my mind they should have their loco artists (and physics people) working flat out to make the core stock sets for each region (as in UK, DE, US) and then decide which routes to best run them on and make those.
     
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  21. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    They have stated in the recent past that they want to improve the 2D map and acknowledge, if I recall correctly that it wasn't up to standard. I imagine there are more pressing issues to be fixed.

    I thought the route looked good quality from the stream as did the unit. Yes there are some issues, but they acknowledged them. It is still work in progress.

    One bug bear of mine which seems to have been in sims since the days of MSTS is platform markers. Why on so many platforms does the player train and the AI trains have to go right up to the end of the platform it looks wrong? There are some TS1 routes with multiple markers so a two coach train for example will stop in the middle of the platform which looks far more realistic. At Huddersfield on NTP a two car class 101 goes right up to the end of the very long platforms, well outside the overall roof which frankly looks ridiculous and unrealistic and I cannot believe it is necessary!

    Armchair experts everywhere nowadays.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2021
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  22. markhazeldine

    markhazeldine Well-Known Member

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    Well.....having watched the stream last night, these are my thoughts.

    Caveat: I've never been on this route in real life. I have just seen photos.

    On the whole, this looks really good. I like the concept of the route. 20 miles is easily long enough when you have so many combinations of services you can drive, plus a depot run, and so many stations. I get why there was only one train included. The 314 was a totally new train that they had to make. There was no east recyclable train they could add in as a 2nd one.

    Things I like:
    • Glasgow Central model looks great.
    • The other stations look good (don't know if they're accurate, but they look it)
    • 314 model looks and sounds really good (thanks to AP again!)
    • Lineside scenery looks fairly custom and accurate for the area
    • The lighting looks great (no horrible blooming on highlights)
    • Weathering in the cab and rubbish on the platforms feels authentic
    • Scottish accent announcements

    Things I don't like:
    • Glasgow Central looks empty (lack of AI trains)
    • Lack of changeable destination blinds on 314
    • The trains still feel a bit "clean" (too shiny). Like they've just been washed. A bit more grime would be good!
    • No GSM-R on 314
    • Clouds still look rubbish (as with all routes)
    • Ballast....ok, I won't go there, but that does need addressing as a general point

    So, basically, within the confines of the current game features and tech, they did a great job. Where it's lacking is where the whole game is lacking. In the future it would be great to see the whole game improve with new features and have the preservation crew update this route accordingly.

    What I'd like to see added in the future:
    • Rush hour features added to ALL routes (Glasgow definitely needs more people)
    • More layers added as trains get added to the game, so Glasgow Central will gain more AI trains, like Voyagers, Class 91s etc.
    • A class 380 DLC (or added to another Scottish route, and then made available in this route)
    • Working GSM-R
    • User changeable destination blinds
    • Sky box/cloud/weather improvements
    • Other routes out of Glasgow Central that can "snap together" with this route, like Matt talked about on stream
     
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  23. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    Not sure if we've seen the same stream. What I saw and heard was that the PIS will be fixed, but everything else we should expect to be as seen on the stream, so I think it is fair to give feedback based on these statements :)
     
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  24. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Wouldn’t dynamic train grime be a treat
     
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  25. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    No - they didn't say this. And to be quite fair to Matt and JD, they made it very very clear that none of the issues that they found/demonstrated in the stream, and talked about, had any guarantee of being fixed for the release.

    JD said that the DLC was available on pre-order, but explicittly pointed out that if you make such a purchase decision now, that it would only be based on what was demonstrated - the incomplete dev build. This is what you should expect to purchase, without any promise of it being made good. Bought as seen, so to speak.

    Because they said that the build needed further development.

    That is exactly what they did. Passengers walking through walls, Signals set to red when they shouldn't be. Broken and completely unsatisfactory audio level/mix.

    Personally speaking, I am very happy to see previews of early dev builds. But not seven working days short of the actual publication date. By this time, I would want to see it all done and dusted - completed, fully tested on all platforms, and ready to go through the publication process (which takes time). All they needed to do with Cathcart for now was to not provide a release date, and not put the product on pre-order, until they had completed the DLC and had some confidence that it works.

    I agree - Cathcart looks absolutely fabulous. I think it will become one of my favourite DLCs for TSW. It will look stunning at night and with various season/weather/day settings. The timetable is likely to be reasonably challenging. And they have included three runs for the NTP/TVL locos and the Class 66.

    I do hope that they have made the front lights work as a light source, for night running - because that would look fabulous, with all of the trackside furniture. But I don't know.... although the demonstration was showing 50 FPS, it really looked more like 20 FPS to me... so maybe the route hasn't been optimised yet. The main junction for the circle looks like a fairly intense build - so there is a chance it will perform badly there. Maybe we won't get working lights on the front.

    Cathcart looks like a great package - but it isn't completed yet. And they have no idea when it will be complete, or even if it will be completed, so there is no point (in my opinion) in providing a release date. It just forces a crunch on the devs, and makes it more likely that more issues will creep in.

    I want to like this DLC. I don't want to buy it, find it is broken in fifty places, and then resent my purchase.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2021
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  26. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    Impressive Glasgow Central Station, the full Cathcart Circle with all branches and one Depot, good variety between rural and urban parts, the blue little flower locos at the stations, Scot Rail as a new operator for TSW, the iconic 314 in the Scot Rail livery, rail tour events, a 66 service and even the seats in the 314 have Scottish colors. So I'm very excited to get it.
     
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  27. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    Some good responses to my earlier post.

    Sadly, release dates set in stone are a feature of IT Projects in general (at least in my experience) with testing being compromised when the development phase runs late.

    With regard to issues arising, I was talking more of basic issues such as PIS not working and Lack of arrival times on the HUD, which they did say would be fixed. Things like audio levels are minor to me (and I appreciate they are major issues to others). It looks great though and overall, as long as the big problems are fixed for release, I am very tempted to buy it on day one, which I wasn’t originally, not being familiar with the route.

    I stand by my original statement though that we should wait for next week’s stream and then moan and groan to our heart’s content if problems still exist and, of course, keep our wallets firmly shut. I don’t see the point of pre-ordering anyway. It’s not like they’re going to sell out.
     
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  28. heyitspopcorn

    heyitspopcorn Well-Known Member

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    Although it's "not on the roadmap," JD did mention that they wanted to add more trains in the future, as and when they build ones that run there in real life. Now, of course that comes with the usual caveat of "it's not a promise, and it's not on the roadmap so we're not actively working on it," but I am inclined to believe that Adam's team would certainly add them in the future, if they can.
     
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  29. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I think more Scottish routes are a certainty. I suspect they will want to use that lovely model of Glasgow Central again.
     
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  30. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    I mentioned Glasgow to Edinburgh in the Stream and JD said something about it, what I don’t understand.

    Its 46 miles and was in Train Simulator already, so it’s possible to make it also for TSW hopefully.
     
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  31. dcnine#5410

    dcnine#5410 Well-Known Member

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    Matt said that he would personally love to see Edinburgh-Glasgow, not a confirmation of course but still interesting.
     
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  32. dcnine#5410

    dcnine#5410 Well-Known Member

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    Interestingly, these signs are all over SEHS. The “4 Car Stop” “8-12 Car Stop” and others. It’s one of my favourite parts about that route, and it proves they can make stop markers.
     
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  33. james64

    james64 Well-Known Member

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    I guarantee that if tomorrow DTG revealed a route like London-Edinburgh in it's entirety, with every single train that's ever ran on the route playable, running at 60fps in 4K flawlessly, people on this forum would still find something to moan about.

    It's a wonder DTG still bother to make content for us when we hyper analyse every single aspect for it, and treat minor problems like it's the end of the world.
     
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  34. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I haven't played SEHS for ages and had forgot about that. Certainly on some stations on Cathcart Circle both Matt and the AI went to the end of the platforms quite away from the station building on others it seemed more realistic. Just one of those little irritation which don't spoil it completely just hold back some of the immersion!
     
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  35. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I suspect it is almost inevitable we will see it at some point. It is almost the perfect route for TSW.
     
  36. taybarker20

    taybarker20 Active Member

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    Is this route set in 2017 as it displays it on the timetables
     
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  37. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    For me Cathcart Circle looks nice. I do like the different types of services you can run although they seem quite short. It appares that the route needs further development from what was said in the stream. The 314 isn't always spiffy clean so perhaps it could use a bit more grime. Glasgow Central Station will have a dead feeling since it's only a few 314s and lack of passengers at stations doesn't give a busy feeling either. Ballast isn't fully accurate but I don't want to start a war on ballast

    I won't be buying this route on release but probably when additional bug fixes come. I just do not believe some issues shown in the stream will be fixed by the time of release because it will have to go to Microsoft/Sony for QA quite soon. The stream should've shown a done and dusted route but clearly it's not done and dusted and won't be before the publication release. Matt and JD clearly weren't confident that some issues shown would be fixed before release.

    Luckily I did win a $25 Xbox Gift Card so I will only be spending $4.99 on the route. Personally the route isn't special or iconic like other routes such as the London Underground Circle Line or the Fife Circle Line and with 20 miles, one train and nothing that's really iconic about it other than being a unknown circle line that not many have heard of before it was announced, it just doesn't feel like it's worth $30 in my opinion. Had it come with another ScotRail train then perhaps I would feel like it's worth that price
     
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  38. Jpantera

    Jpantera Active Member

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    Perfect route provided one of the push-pull eras is done. Unfortunately I suspect we will see a popular era done instead. After 1990 this route became very run of the mill.

    We need a simulation of an East field fitter holding a 47/7 or 27/2 together with their bare hands while the driver goes for another record run and brakes late on the descent of Cowlairs bank.

    More likely we will see a 170 or 385 with a single power/brake handle and 300000 complaints the PIS has a pixel incorrect......
     
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  39. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    They look at the comments and filter out the emotions, the noise and the repeated nature of huge complaints about small issues, take the constructive criticism, and aim to do better. They also know the complexities and commercial considerations of the development and know what are the most important issues to deal with. That will never match what each individual player will want and it will never happen quickly enough, so the complaints and scrutiny will continue. The more nit-picky the comments become, the more DTG know they are getting the most important things right, as people are having to zoom in to pixel level to find faults.

    It’s a fascinating sport to watch and participate in. There’s a good match on in the Cane Creek article thread at the moment. The community are currently winning against Skyhook, who had been enjoying an early lead with their first scenery screenshots, but the community came back strong with their annihilation of the trains in the second batch of pictures and took the lead with a fantastic pixel level shot of some missing numbers on the back of a train and a wrong wagon. It’s not exactly end to end stuff but we are hoping for a close finish and Skyhook need to improve their train game if they are going to pull level again. Back to Gary in the studio.
     
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  40. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Yes I fear you are right. Would love to see a 70's or 80's version, however apparently modern trains with their single push pull handles are far more interesting to drive!
     
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  41. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I think, ultimately, Cathcart will be like almost every other TSW route DLC, with the exception of Oakville (which can't easily be redeemed)..... and Cathcart will eventually make the grade (I generally really like TSW content). I am absolutely sure Cathcart will become one of my favourites, which is why I am so passionately enthusiastic for them to get it right.

    And for me, Cathcart is the fore-runner for the London/Brighton route. And I want DTG to sort out their internal processes, and get off on the right foot with Rush Hour. I want DTG to succeed, and roll out their grand project for train simulation with good speed, because, frankly - I am getting older every day.... ;-)

    I actually think that the next preview stream won't be very informative. I think the next key event for this DLC is the launch, and the reaction to the first few hours of play, as reported by the early adopters.
     
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  42. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    If you’re on PC, you can download my cloud skybox mod which I created, which significantly improves the visuals of the clouds. Available here to download
     
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  43. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    The one route I’d gladly pay more than £25 for if it came with the Azusa, the 700s and the older hst
     
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  44. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    One of the remarks on the stream that struck me was the notion that, yes there are some bugs, such as the sound etc., but that, though we might fix them before release, we're not making any promises. Is that the correct response? Shouldn't the publisher be saying "We see this problem and it will be fixed before you buy it"?. Or, at least, " We see this problem and we promise to fix it as soon as possible"? I've heard this before on preview streams, shrugging off things that are wrong or missing. Admittedly, some things are fixed before or after launch, but we're asked to buy " as is" at release. I almost always do, but I would like to be treated with a little more respect, rather than condescension.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2021
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  45. DeStijl

    DeStijl Well-Known Member

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    Well, if you buy it anyway, then it's no wonder they aren't planning on changing their business model.
     
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  46. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly
     
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  47. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    And this is why I am not gonna buy the route on day 1 but way down the line. If dtg are just gonna release a product as is and fix it later, then i am not gonna spend money on said product until most bugs are resolved. Of course people are gonna buy it when it releases anyways which is no wonder their business model is "Release it Now, Fix It Later" since they are gonna get money when it releases anyways regardless of issues
     
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  48. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    You're both absolutely right, of course. I guess my enthusiasm for the game outweighs my common sense sometimes. But, other times, it works differently, Take the missing "banking com" in CRR, for instance. Who knew that this bug existed before the route was released? I certainly didn't. As far as I know, it still isn't fixed. And I did delay buying SEHS until there was sound. I think we buy almost all the dlc "as is". But starting with GCC, and Cane Creek, I'm going to wait it out and see what others find before I hit that buy button. I'm actually making promises.:)
     
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  49. Jpantera

    Jpantera Active Member

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    Regardless of right or wrongs of releasing with issues present this is common across most games these days. Day 1 patches for some PS4 games can be several GB in size and seriously delay you getting into the game if your on a slow connection. I guess there s some deliberation behind the scenes as to wether the issue is a show stopper such as a railway with the rails missing or something like PIS not working as it should or at all which doesnt stop the trains running.
     
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  50. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Well, that's it, isn't it. We buy routes, knowing they'll have issues, but confident that they are playable at least. But everyone has their own definition of "playable". Mine is pretty forgiving, I certainly accept that any software will have minor bugs on release, but in a train simulator that tolerance stops at the absence of sound. I thought I heard a pin drop on the stream yesterday. So, as it stands, GCC is unplayable for me, but, if they fix the sound and create some traffic, I'll probably end up buying it, like I did with SEHS.
     
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