Train Sim World 2 - Hustling On The Harlem

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG Natster, Mar 10, 2022.

  1. dr4w4t

    dr4w4t Member

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    Exactly that. And i can't believe no one of the team or Beta tester calls this out. This should no rocket science to put some rattle and rumble sounds in. Route looks good but sounds too sterile. :(
     
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  2. LimitedEdiition

    LimitedEdiition Well-Known Member

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    After watching the preview stream, I was fairly impressed with what I saw, but it wasn't all sunshine and roses, there were definitely some things that should be addressed (although they won't because the release window is only a week away, so maybe more stuff to pile onto the preserved collection team on their endless list already).

    The positives definitely exceeded my expectation. The little details they added like the miniature statues at that one station was very nice, and the sound and physics revamp definitely feels authentic to their real life counterparts. Hats off to the DTG sound team for putting in that effort, as the M7 sounds like an M7 instead of...whatever the LIRR one was. The Park Avenue Railroad Bridge looks pretty close to its real life counterpart as well, so the modeling team did a fantastic job there.

    As for the cons, there definitely are shortcuts that were taken, which might have been rectified if they were given some extra development time. Items like the station PIS is pretty unacceptable. Copying and pasting the British system onto American routes doesn't feel right at all, and I wished they pushed back the release to get it right before announcing the release date. Once again the iconic Met-Life building is missing, and it seems that it'll remain that way. It's one of the most iconic structures on the line, considering it's directly in your field of view entering Manhattan, andakin to not having the Shard on Brighton MainLine. Its omission is definitely the wrong decision. The decision to not include Highbridge Facility was expected, but still disappointing regardless. It's one of the largest storage yards in the system, and having an extra yard to shunt and store trains would have added more activities to do, and made perfect sense considering it's (very) close proximity to the Yankees Stadium station.

    Lastly the area around Grand Central Terminal could have used more work. Track 61 is very noticeable when riding along the Metro North, and it has historical significance as well. It's a shame that it wasn't depicted, especially since it can be seen as you leave the terminal, and it's not obscured in any way. The decision to only do 1 level of the terminal is also questionable. It would have been a mammoth task, but having half of the terminal just truncated definitely seems like the wrong decision. Yes, it was done that way in TS1, but it would have been more realistic and nice to actually have the full terminal.
     
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  3. PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix

    PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix Well-Known Member

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    Did anyone realize that there are flickering graphics on the M7A guage light and cab signal light button panel?
     
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  4. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    After watching this I have a couple of questions...

    When is spirit of steam out?
    When is horseshoe out?
    When is rivets out?

    i haven't seen a reason to buy this unfortunately. Another Cathcart in my eyes

    i also find it interesting that it's suggested if the community make noise about certain things they will get lined up potentially .

    Does this mean route mergers and longer routes are coming?
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2022
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  5. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    How are Rush Hour passengers not in?

    Like, literally, how does this happen?
     
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  6. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    It's 8am and 5pm in Manhattan and the Bronx. NYC should be absolutely buzzing with numerous train, vehicular and pedestrian traffic, not to mention the cacophony that would normally ensue.
    Iconic structures like the Met Life Building missing. Is there any sign of Yankee Stadium?
    I really wanted to like this route, but......
    As far as the RH passenger feature is concerned, I'm dreading the fateful words: " We can't add them by release, but they will come within a matter of weeks rather than months " Shades of BML?
     
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  7. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    As a person who uses Grand Central quite often. I was baffled seeing the platforms so dark. That's absolutely ridiculous. Not only is that unrealistic, it would be a safety hazard. In reality they are very very bright. Also the platform have this yellowish orangish color.

    A note on the platforms being empty at Grand Central, that's actually how it is on most occasions. Passengers would wait in the concourse area before being called at a certain time to board or already be on their train.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2022
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  8. WonterRail

    WonterRail Well-Known Member

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    There was one big thing that I noticed when watching the preview stream and that what routes will be providing the freight cars being dotted at various points along this route. I made a thread here where I go over what they are.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2022
  9. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Yeh but that is how it is in reality especially since there is no Kawasaki M8 EMU trains that would run on the new haven line. Can't really complain about that in my opinion especially since there are Hudson line services
     
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  10. pendolino18

    pendolino18 Active Member

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    A small point but one worth mentioning. I think nearly every station had PIS boards EXCEPT Grand Central Terminus. This seems very odd considering its the main station on the route. Also if I spawn on foot, how do I know which train is leaving next and where it's going to? Thoughts anyone?
     
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  11. bdlaplaca

    bdlaplaca Member

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    From experience, up until very recently, there were no pis boards on the platforms at all. Regular commuters look at the big board in the concourse to find their train and track.
     
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  12. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    To be honest i was impressed by the details of the rolling stock and the feeling the route creates. Wish to have this in my collection.

    I would pay 100 bucks for the harlem line, unfortunately the route ends at north white plains, which is the reason i decided now to give it a "No Buy".

    End of story.
     
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  13. Lonewolf97

    Lonewolf97 Well-Known Member

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    Anybody knows the price?
     
  14. TimTri

    TimTri Well-Known Member

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    I was very impressed with the overground scenery, especially at the stations. The route gives off a very nice vibe. I would‘ve personally liked to see selective door opening, even if the train just automatically recognized which doors aren‘t supposed to open and kept them closed. Shouldn‘t be difficult at all since a similar system is used to deploy the little staircases on the low-level platforms on Boston Sprinter. Anyways, it‘s not the end of the world.
    I‘ve never been to the area in real life, but the route looked well-rounded to me as a rather neutral observer. Nothing hugely special, which is why I‘ll probably not buy it at release (especially since the Swiss route I‘m very excited for is coming up). But I probably won‘t be able to resist once it receives a decent discount.
     
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  15. bdlaplaca

    bdlaplaca Member

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    I’m curious about the selective door operation myself. In LIRR, you could enter the key in a specific cab along the train and open either the forward or rearward doors. Is Matt suggesting that this feature was removed? It worked as intended in LIRR. in real life, the operator does not open the doors, the conductors do.
     
  16. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    There are actually pis boards on the platforms at Grand Central Terminal. While yes you do have the big boards at the concourse area, there are actual pis displays on the platforms at Grand Central.

    On the topic on PIS, there really was no excuse for them to be modeled incorrectly. DTG said they modelled the pis on Boston Sprinter incorrectly because they couldn't get refrence. But for some reason when there is a butload of reference for it, they don't bother modelling it correctly. DTG love to copy and paste.

    The audio on the trains themselves is a big improvement compared to lirr but where is the track noise? The MTA Metro-North railroad is notorious for is track noise. Trains don't run on grinded rail.

    Station signs missing the MTA Metro-North Railroad logs and the Watch The Gap logos is inexcusable considering that the reason for the short length was to focus on detail. At least the stations themselves are well modeled from what I've seen. The Manhattan skyline itself was missing some iconic buildings like the Metlife Building and the Empire State Building. Buildings which would be visible at Harlem-125th Street

    I've seen some complain about the route being empty but they have to understand that you do have Hudson Line ai services and since there is no Kawasaki M8 EMU which runs New Haven line services, there would be no point in adding ai services for a line in which dtg don't have the train for. On BML they didn't add thameslink services since they don't have the 700 and they didn't repaint class 387s into the Thamslink livery and I didn't see that much complaints about that.

    Frankly I think the route is ok but considering the reason the route is short was due to scenery and trying to get that right, seeing the obiovous shortcuts done in terms of detail, I can't say this route is worth $30. I'll probably get this route but since I have a $20 Xbox Gift Card and a Xbox Game Pass Subscription, I would only be spending $6.99 on the route compared to the normal $29.99 price. Frankly I don't think this route is worth $30 and players are better off waiting for a sale.
     
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  17. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    $29.99 which is the standard price for all dtg route dlc's
     
  18. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    It’s all a judgement call for DTG because some people would like the extra AI trains while others wouldn’t want the wrong trains on the services, and every player is going to have their own preference. Of course DTG know if there is any likelihood of an M8 coming at some time in the future which can then fill the gaps properly. Matt did say in the stream to show your support if you want loco DLC to come too.
     
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  19. PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix

    PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix Well-Known Member

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    Right i have post picture of it and as you can see its not like the twilight zone on stream
     
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  20. PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix

    PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix Well-Known Member

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    That what i was waiting to hear as well? It's such a disappointing part that the sound or audio team didn't work on, compare to the train car on the London Victoria Line, you can actually hear the train going over the track, and junction and curving. What Happen DTG?:|:(
     
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  21. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Yeh but I think a new haven line dlc would make much more sense. The Stamford locals on the New Haven line only stop at Harlem and Fordham. I don't see the point in making a loco dlc for a train that would only stop at two stations which aren't far apart from each other. The New Haven line express trains go straight to Stamford after stopping at Harlem
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2022
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  22. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    They aren't similar. The pis on this route is from lirr which was based on the pis system found on the Modern British Routes
     
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  23. PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix

    PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix Well-Known Member

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    They basically reuse the same one from the LIRR which in my own opinion is not the right move, also still they got the information on the PIS Wrong because when the train come it should said where the train is heading toward in the center with bold red font, if you look at the video here
     
  24. PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix

    PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix Well-Known Member

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    On the Other hand Grand Central Terminal Lighting is not as how it is in real life. Heres a picture of it
    [​IMG]
    And heres a video of it on the top level

    And heres a video of it on the bottom level


    I really do hope they fix the lighting because this is a problem
     
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  25. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Am I the only one who found the names of the Journey Mode Chapters in this route extremely cringey :)
     
  26. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Problem with that is, why should we show support to get an item, that the route is barren without? I’m not about to invest into a route I wouldn’t consider without the extra stock, just so I can maybe earn the chance to buy said stock…if DTG want me to buy their content, they should be the ones selling it to me.

    For me the stream was hard to watch, partly because all in all, the route was pretty dead, and I was never optimistic for it anyway, the draw distance on TSW is never going to do a route such as this justice, driving into NYC in a straight line is never going to work, let alone the fact that there are missing landmarks, and these are the ones that you’d really miss, because they’re the famous ones, yes, the 2 buildings next to Harlem might transform it completely, but that’s not really what I’m looking for when I’m approaching NYC. The other reason I initially turned the stream off, is that Matt & JD had this question set up, “why did we choose this particular section” and the reply was “to spend more time on the details”. That’s a very good answer, yes, but in practice this isn’t really true is it? There are so many details missing, I mean the PIS being incorrect is pretty major here, not only have DTG asked us in the past to give them reference, but this route is very much documented on YouTube too, it would be impossible to miss, and a commuter route such as this really needs the stations to be as accurate as possible, this is where you are spending all your time, so these unbranded, generically equipped stations are just hard to ignore, and dear god, track noises? DTG are in a prime position to make a Maglev route.

    I’m actually quite annoyed with this DLC, and DTG to be honest, I don’t want to sound petty and childish like some of the effortless rants that we see, but I feel like Matt has just pee’d on my leg and told me it’s raining…

    Also didn’t appreciate the song and dance about the new M7/M3 sounds, I mean well done I suppose for not giving us whatever has gone on with the LIRR stock?

    Passengers? Yes? No? Even without rush hour passengers it was dead, I’d prefer it if DTG would focus on that more than applying snow to rail chairs. (Ya ya different teams).

    It’s a real shame, I honestly really liked the section around White Plains, the almost rural town theme was really quite something.

    I have to ask at this point how many resources SoS is pulling, because DLC’s like this are non starters, to be frank, really not sure Steam is worth what it’s costing current resources, if that is the reason for this. This level of quality is great for 40+ miles of length, but for 20ish, it’s just a no.

    Here’s hoping to Rivet pulling through with their upcoming commuter line, at the very least it won’t be yet another ‘third rail enclosed cab with limited view’ experience.
     
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  27. PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix

    PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix Well-Known Member

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    Like i said above where is the clickely clack sound, the city ambient, and sound?
     
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  28. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    I heard track noise, it is there.
     
  29. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I had hoped that this would be a "little urban gem" route like Cathcart: not much of it but what there is of it polished till it shines. But this one seems to be considerably less detailed, and certainly less dense, than the twice-as-long Köln-Aachen.
     
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  30. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    There at least I can't agree. It was never realistic to expect DTG to include an all-new train, especially one which is only there for AI traffic
     
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  31. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Im not saying that DTG should of included it, I’m simply saying that the timetable is bare without it.

    Matt was clearly open to considering it as DLC, and it would have some use on the route as it currently stands. Weather this means the M3 would of been cut from the original plan is something to be considered, and it’s obviously a subjective view, as to if this should of been used instead of the M3.

    Of course even the idea of it being a DLC add on would be contradicting your point, If it can only be used as AI, why would we want it as DLC? That is basically my point, why should we advocate for it?

    Overall I think this is a botched DLC, from the concept to the finished product, this is a pretty big step down from past releases.
     
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  32. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Excellent points. I’ve kind of balanced my expectations on what I expect DTG to deliver rather than what I think would be the best things for them to focus on or what would make the routes and locos so much better. I’m afraid I’m never going to expect a decent recreation of a skyline and if they ever do that with the draw distances etc it is a major surprise. I would also expect generic stations for a route like this. It did all look very pleasant to me and well made but I can’t really say for how authentic it looks, and I’m not expecting it to be either. I don’t understand them not doing new artwork for the PIS because they have been harping on about all the new ones they’ve done for the preserved collection and how they take on feedback for that kind of thing. Matt even set up a thread for community examples for a repository of the correct designs and information shown on PIS systems. No point unless you use the results. For myself again, I am actually just happy if I can read the information from first person view and if the info is correct on it. I can live with the artwork being a bit generic, but I still don’t understand why it is.

    Some things like the lack of track noise did stick out like a sore thumb and that is a DTG trope almost. I’m all too pleased for sounds that appear to play properly and are reasonably well balanced but I never expect every aspect to be right and the track noise is something I’m actually expecting to be missing these days. I would have thought by five years in they would have standardised levels for something like that but all I can hope for is sounds that loop properly and no sounds that are obtrusively too harsh and loud like the wind noise in the 377 and 387 cabs on BML with the left window open. I can live with some things being a bit quiet if it saves me from that. The M7 in LIRR had its entire sound rendered in such a harsh way when it came to TSW2 that I was glad I didn’t hear it in the stream for this version. This is supposedly the result of the audio team paying particular attention to it. There was no hope for us with their normal amount of attention then. Maybe this is why I see it as mainly good, because it has been so bad at times in the past, something I have had a few rants about.

    Passengers are more broken now than they have ever been. Unless I’m taking the mickey out of them I never deem them worthy of comment. In some ways I’m happy when they aren’t present rather than see them falling over each other and glitching everywhere but DTG can stop pretending the Rush Hour passengers work and fix them or put the old ones back in for now.

    DTG do get some things right, and I may agree with some of their decisions and areas of focus while others might not, but there are still many many things that irk me massively. I don’t get to even see half my train in Sherman Hill. 107 total vehicles and I can only see 40 of them behind me. I know that DTG know that’s not good enough and me saying it’s not good enough is hardly likely to get any more tankers on my screen. I can just hope DTG are working on all of these things that they know aren’t good enough and not get into rants about it here. So based on what I know and what I expect, I saw the stream as more positive than negative, however odd that may seem.
     
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  33. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    I agree mostly, only part I wouldn’t say is that the stream was positive, mostly because of the rhetoric being used.

    I’m completely in agreement with you regarding where the limits are and what to expect, like I said, DTG are never going to be able to pull off a good looking NYC approach & skyline, they are years, if even a lifetime, away from doing it justice. Look at how nice the scenery is around the White Plains end, it’s night and day in terms of the atmosphere, just because of the differences in locale recreation. On the contrary, the approach into Boston on NEC is quite something, so I think this is just an overstep of limitations.

    Of course it is DTG’s prerogative to develop routes as they see fit, and of course if people are happy with the DLC, then I don’t begrudge that, I just think it’s just a shame that DTG have been doing really well with significant improvements across their content for a while now, but then we have to go back to something such as this, which DTG were always going to be in an impossible situation with.
     
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  34. PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix

    PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix Well-Known Member

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    That odds and strange because in the stream I could barely hear the clickly clack sound of the train going over the junction, i do however hear the screeching part when the train make a curve and stopping
     
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  35. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    The "emptiness" of this line (honestly that statement is subjective especially considering that there were many trains in the stream running on the route) is simply how this line is in reality. This is the Harlem line. Not the Hudson or New Haven line. This is how the line is without new haven line services and frankly you would only see M8s on the line for a few miles before they split off at Woodlawn. The M3As run a different schedule to the M7As hence why they have less services so why should DTG have considered to cut the M3A from this line to add a train that you would only see for a few miles and stops at only two stations? Frankly it wouldn't have made sense

    Seriously, if people were expecting London Commuter levels of busyness then frankly that was a unrealistic expectation and they were setting themselves up for disappointment. Not every route will be super busy or busy as London Commuter. Players can't be having that expectation when commuter routes are made. You'll only set yourself up for disappointment.

    At least DTG included Hudson Line playable services. But frankly there was no point in adding New Haven Line services if they don't have the proper train.
     
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  36. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I did not. There was the typical screeching and noise when going through points, but not track noise throughout the route
     
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  37. PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix

    PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix Well-Known Member

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    You have a great point there. Its because some people are living in other parts of the world, and don't ride these line frequently as us in nyc. I however did not rode on the Harlem line, but i know that the lack of ai train is due to the fact that the harlem line is share with the hudson and the new haven line, and therefore since those train aren't in game such as the M8 and The shoreliner cab and car, this is why we don't have many ai train running up and down the line, it would be realistic at all.

    However, i really do hope that they would add the required trains such as the M8, or shoreliner on the metro north line this year at least.
     
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  38. PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix

    PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix Well-Known Member

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    I kinda of someone hear it but is is so faint the track noise,
    if you go back to the stream you could hear it at the timestamp: 24:00, but it so faint and not loud, compared to real-life you could hear the train going over track loud and clear. They got to increase that part of the audio. Normally you are suppose to hear the train going over all the track regardless the postion the train is, even if the train is going through a straight track, you still can hear the loud clickely clack sounds of it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2022
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  39. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    It’s not just about what’s on the tracks though, it’s the atmosphere, it just isn’t there, nothing about this sells that you’re in NYC, there was just no bustle about it, it was kind of funny when Matt mentioned making sure all the streets were full, then he immediately looked to a street with literally 2 cars on it.

    Again, my expectations were pretty much met here, which is quite unfortunate, as I said above, DTG have a long way to go before they can pull a route like this off, because it really depends on quite a lot more than just the trains.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2022
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  40. PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix

    PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix Well-Known Member

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    Your suppose to hear the gong gong gong gong, clack clack where the train is rickly back and forth on the rail and hear the body of the car rumbling on the track when the train is going through the rail like this
     
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  41. PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix

    PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix Well-Known Member

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    Was anyone able to hear the AC Noise on the M3A on the stream?
     
  42. NateDogg7a

    NateDogg7a Active Member

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    I'm the realm of what is missing, important, and could be fixed before release, there are two things I would mention:

    1) The lighting in GCT, as mentioned, seemed really too dark. Obviously any player will be here a lot, so it should look as good as possible. And, lighting is probably something that could be fixed before release.

    2) Rush hour passenger volume. Perhaps this is already implemented but wasn't shown. A route like this should feel as busy as possible. There's no obvious reason why rush hour passengers wouldn't be there, this is not LBN.

    Would I like a New Haven DLC, for itself, and for its layers? Yes, but honestly if it ever comes I will probably be mostly done with Harlem by then and would probably not be revisiting so much just to see some AI or extra services. Most likely, if New Haven ever comes, then the layers provided to it by Harlem would be what I was looking for.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2022
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  43. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Yes
     
  44. PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix

    PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix Well-Known Member

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  45. heyitspopcorn

    heyitspopcorn Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  46. Krazy

    Krazy Well-Known Member

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    Little fun fact that I feel like sharing, the Harlem Line is only the SECOND route release in Train Sim World to include two different trains in the current promotional image (thumbnail, cover art, I'm unsure as to what it's called), having the M7A and M3A in it. The only other route to have two different trains in its promotional image is the West Somerset Railway (with the Class 47 and Class 09)
     
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  47. PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix

    PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix Well-Known Member

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    What happen to the grand central terminal ambient, wasn't there supposed to be ceiling fans on each side and corner of the platform?
     
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  48. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    I understand all different players here about the inaccuracies and other points.

    For me personally i think i would have fun with the route, even if the ambiente is of representing new york is not like a real ny, but its miles away from being bad.

    Another thing i like is that dtg is not going for fantasy stock putting as replacemente. It represents the current frequency with current available trains.

    Anyway, this route dtg didnt sell to me at all from the very begin. Its future loco dlc potential is low, since it doesnt make sense to make loco dlcs for a few miles of using a new stock.

    Dtgs point of the route lenght beeing 40%, instead of the 100% to southeast has finally proofed as an excuse in my opinion.

    So whats left? Here we are again and can discuss the potential of routes, which isnt used. And for those want to remind me that dtg is a business, i want to be convinced why i should pay 100% for a 40% route?

    Shame, the team did a great job and the few minor things can be fixed until release.

    Actually this is the first dlc i dont buy for tsw since im on the boat .(except the 187, which i got later as a.i when the soundmod was out)
     
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  49. Lonewolf97

    Lonewolf97 Well-Known Member

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    Why I feel like they are planning the New Haven line at some point. Matt asked us if we would like to see a M8 DLC so confidently on stream. Has me thinking now.
     
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  50. Cash

    Cash Active Member

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    Exactly what I was thinking! I ride as a passenger a lot in TSW2, and with there being no PIS, how do I know which train to get on?
     
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