Train Sim World 2 - London Commuter South Downs Spectacle

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG Natster, Oct 1, 2021.

  1. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2021
    Messages:
    2,177
    Likes Received:
    4,047
    You're (and I, as an Xbox One user) are only paying for the Route, The Class 377, and The Class 387.

    The 166, 43, 66, 375 and 465 come from other DLCs, and thus are seperately bought. (So, in reality, we all pay the same, but PC and Next-gen get some additions from other DLCs)

    Plus, I'd rather be able to play the route rather than Crash Simulator 2021.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  2. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Messages:
    1,225
    Likes Received:
    3,266
    Because people building lower end PC’s are putting more than 8gb of ram inside them, if they don’t, they’re more than likely going to get out of memory crashes.

    My point is that, you’re paying the same amount because you’re getting the same work, if you were to log into a PS5 with your PS4 account, you’d have all the stuff you’re missing out on for free.

    The issue is the hardware, and DTG aren’t responsible for that, you have to make the financial investment to increase your hardware capability, DTG simply provide you with the opportunity to access an enhanced experience once you do so.

    I doubt you’d be very happy if you tried to load up your PS4 with everything enabled and ended up with a bricked console.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2021
    • Like Like x 4
  3. Luk396-e464

    Luk396-e464 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2020
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    23
    I think this route will be amazing! But i'm worried about a question: if the console's players had a lot of problems with 350 services of NRD, how will this new route can work with 1400 services without crash?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  4. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    6,591
    Likes Received:
    6,025
    Lower end PCs would have to turn down the graphics to very low and also may well struggle with the layers unless they've got sufficient RAM
    Given most PCs (even a few years old) have more memory and faster memory than the base PS4 it's not a great comparrison
     
    • Like Like x 4
  5. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    6,591
    Likes Received:
    6,025
    I believe it takes more work on the PS4, because they would be making it on PC and then REMOVING things (ie taking more work) for the older machines
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Messages:
    1,225
    Likes Received:
    3,266
    NRD is running several types of trains, where as BML will only run 2 trains for the 1200 service bulk, with another 5 running a total of 200 services, so the total train count is only 7, 8 including the static shunter.

    NRD runs 9 trains in total, so the roster is basically the same in terms of memory, since the number of services has little effect on memory after the first one.

    The difference in the timetable comes down to our lord and saviour Mr Joethefish, who has dedicated months of work to bring us the most expansive timetable to date.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2021
    • Like Like x 3
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  7. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Messages:
    1,225
    Likes Received:
    3,266
    More than likely the case, but then again considering that PS4/X1 bring a substantial income to TSW, I’m guessing that quickly becomes a non issue when you look at time vs money.

    The disconnect being made here is that people seem to misunderstand where the line is drawn by the hardware, not DTG.

    I will say that I am surprised that DTG have managed to get a 1200 service timetable onto last gen machines, surely this alone is testiment to their dedication to PS4 & Xbox One.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2021
    • Like Like x 4
  8. LWDAdnane

    LWDAdnane Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2021
    Messages:
    166
    Likes Received:
    148
    Last gen console users complaining would also complain about low frames and constant game crashes. You haven't been hard done by, your machines simply aren't enough for what next gen and pc users are getting (and can handle). I remember being absolutely heartbroken when I learned as a young kid that I couldn't get mods for my ps2 games, and enjoy then as pc users were, so in a way I understand your hurt. However, would you rather not have layers and play the route as it is, or have the layers but be unable to play the route at all because your system is overheating/crashing/stuttering constantly. Don't let your emotion get in the way of understanding that DTG have done the best for you. I'm certain the layers underwent extensive testing and it caused DTG to come to the conclusion that they have.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  9. skyMutt

    skyMutt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2019
    Messages:
    479
    Likes Received:
    1,250
    That's aside the point I was trying to make.

    To reiterate, according to the live stream last night the game was crashing on last gen consoles if it had the layers active. But on these same last gen consoles, how is it that they run fine with Dresden's timetable, which incorporates up to 8 different trains/cabs. There's some contradiction going on here, and THAT is the issue that could use some further explanation.

    People keep hand waving this issue away, saying that the hardware on last gen is limited, and yes that's true, but it's confusing when one thing gets said, and then suddenly elsewhere it works just fine despite the odds. Are the two trains really just eating up more memory usage than eight other trains? It's all inconsistent.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2021
    • Like Like x 5
  10. MisterV

    MisterV Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2021
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    25
    Your not taking into account the RAM usage of the actual route. It sounds like BML (Or at least certain parts of it) are very RAM intensive on their own, you add a bunch of locos into the mix as well and that's what kills it on the old hardware.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Messages:
    1,225
    Likes Received:
    3,266
    30 total stations across 50 miles, along with substantial landmark assets and more than a couple of large stations, you can easily see why this route requires more ram.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  12. skyMutt

    skyMutt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2019
    Messages:
    479
    Likes Received:
    1,250
    This could very well be a good reason, but even then I still think the two routes in comparison are quite similar. Both the Dresden and London routes are around 50 miles in track length, contain 24 and 30 stations respectively, and both feature scenery ranging from countryside to dense cityscapes.
    I get that there'll be some further nuisances and little things that'll make the RAM usage differ just from scenery alone, but does that difference really determine the make or break decision for layers?
    For two trainsets to be enough to fill the memory usage, while they can fit eight different unique ones on other comparable routes? It's a bit weird.

    I still appreciate the responses though, and I'm thoroughly impressed with the London - Brighton route so far, its just little issues like these that brings up some questions.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  13. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2016
    Messages:
    1,831
    Likes Received:
    3,348
    And your evidence for this is?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. saltychipz#3569

    saltychipz#3569 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2021
    Messages:
    2,477
    Likes Received:
    1,834
    PC’s just have better hardware and better capabilities
     
  15. Ryan1997

    Ryan1997 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2018
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    47
    Joethefish are you able to tell us if the Peak time Reigate/Gatwick Airport splitting services that split at redhill are present in the timetable? Also the opposite in the morning peak where they attach at redhill?
     
  16. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2016
    Messages:
    1,831
    Likes Received:
    3,348
    I'm very disappointed in the attitude of the "nouveau riche" PS5 owners on the forum. Just a few short months ago these erstwhile PS4 players were themselves worried about DTG abandoning them, something that DTG vehemently denied on these pages.

    Now, these recent graduates to PS5 ( and its MS equivalent) are treating current gen8 players with disdain and a cringeworthy smugness in many cases. They seem to be uncaring about those many youngsters and others who simply can't afford the several hundred £'s or $'s it takes to upgrade.They are of course, to their mind, simply being "realistic", overcome, it seems, with the excitement of the BML layers and services they can now enjoy.

    I also observed, with astonishment, that the restriction of services for gen8 players was dismissed in one or two lines of comment on the stream yesterday, ignoring the fact that these players have been the backbone of TSW for most of the past few years and continue to be so statistically.

    It's all a real turn off for me.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2021
    • Like Like x 11
  17. JealousSheep768

    JealousSheep768 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2021
    Messages:
    259
    Likes Received:
    353
    I think that dtg should just say what they are doing with last gen and whether routes will have layers or not because I really don't like the fact it changes from route to route. I think it should be a legacy edition like FIFA after the next core update Tbh I can do without the se ai but I would like to see the static gronk and the 166 as these simulate everyday services along the route and don't go to any of the big assets.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2019
    Messages:
    700
    Likes Received:
    924
    It is not the question of hardware. It is a software thing. You always have the ability to make software with the same content more slim. It always is the question of development work to make it slim. The background is software architecture. A lot of software uses big components with preworked parts equal if you need it really. And that makes software with the same content always much bigger. Without sorting out that parts you really don't need, you can have the most powerful hardware and it will not work on it.
     
  19. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2016
    Messages:
    1,831
    Likes Received:
    3,348
    That comment displays an utter lack of knowledge of the infinite range of PC ages and configurations.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  20. JealousSheep768

    JealousSheep768 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2021
    Messages:
    259
    Likes Received:
    353
    Just wondering would sort of downloading far away scenery assets on WiFi reduce ram consumption on gen8 consoles as that might be something worth looking at. Similar to ms flight simulator but a hybrid version. This could be turned on in return for some layers. TrainSim-Matt
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2021
    • Like Like x 2
  21. MisterV

    MisterV Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2021
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    25
    Take the tinfoil hat off, there is no grand conspiracy here. It would be in DTG's interest to get the extra services on the the old consoles because there would be people who would buy them just for the extra layers on BML, so they would actually make more money from doing that. The simple truth is those systems at present cannot run the extra layers, That's it. that's all there is to it. Hopefully that will change in the future if they figure out some optimisation but for now it cannot be done.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  22. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2019
    Messages:
    700
    Likes Received:
    924
    No fear Crosstie the PS5 owners will face the same second class customer experience in around 2 years.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  23. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Messages:
    1,225
    Likes Received:
    3,266
    You understand that ram is not a resource that degrades over time right?

    That is the all of the issue.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  24. saltychipz#3569

    saltychipz#3569 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2021
    Messages:
    2,477
    Likes Received:
    1,834
    Well I’m not a pc player am I ?
     
  25. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Messages:
    1,225
    Likes Received:
    3,266
    So if you don’t have the knowledge, don’t involve yourself in the issue?

    A lot of that going about round here…
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  26. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2019
    Messages:
    700
    Likes Received:
    924
    But software size will also not reduce. It will grow very quickly if you don't optimize it as a developer. :)
     
    • Like Like x 2
  27. saltychipz#3569

    saltychipz#3569 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2021
    Messages:
    2,477
    Likes Received:
    1,834
    Look , I can’t be bothered to have this argument so I won’t
     
    • Like Like x 1
  28. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2019
    Messages:
    700
    Likes Received:
    924
    Very nice behavior. Wow. :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  29. kevint1972

    kevint1972 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2020
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    24
    i must say the modeling of Victoria and the Battersea area is excellent. I know the station very well and if I hadn't known better, I would have thought I was watching video of the trains leaving and coming in early in the stream. They even have the Southeastern trains leaving from the right platforms. If there is another stream, would it be possible to take a look at the Victoria concourse and maybe have a look round East Croydon station please? That also looks like you got it dead right.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  30. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2020
    Messages:
    5,287
    Likes Received:
    7,537
    No they aren't.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  31. kevint1972

    kevint1972 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2020
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    24
    It's probably a reference to the massive disruptions on this route a few years ago due to disputes between Southern Rail and the unions. True story: In 2016 I flew back from the Canary Islands to Gatwick and then travelled by Southern to my home then in South London. I was about 4 hours on the plane and then about 5 trying to get home from the airport.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  32. DTG JD

    DTG JD Staff Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2021
    Messages:
    369
    Likes Received:
    2,018
    Hello folks. Healthy discussion is encouraged. Slanging matches aren't. Please be civil, or we will lock this thread.

    For reference, it is, as the team highlighted in the stream last night - a performance issue. We'd love to be able to offer additional layers to all players, but first and foremost we want them to be able to enjoy the core content of the route - something which the additional layers puts into jeopardy - which is why we've had to take this (hard) decision.
     
    • Like Like x 16
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  33. JealousSheep768

    JealousSheep768 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2021
    Messages:
    259
    Likes Received:
    353
    Southern rail is probably the worst rail company in Britain. Feel free if you can think of a worse one to share
     
    • Like Like x 4
  34. Bradley

    Bradley Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2018
    Messages:
    266
    Likes Received:
    292
    hey DTG, in the future can we get BML railtours, because now the ECW one doesnt make sense with how it gets there
     
    • Like Like x 2
  35. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2020
    Messages:
    151
    Likes Received:
    227
    Use off the rails mode if you want a railtour. It isn't being added, you won't go short with the current timetable being offered...
     
    • Like Like x 3
  36. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2016
    Messages:
    1,831
    Likes Received:
    3,348
    Not degrades exactly, but it is superceded over time. It becomes faster with less latency etc. (think DDR4/ DDR3 ) and the amount you need increases too. I have 64GB. Too much, right? But 5 years ago 4GB was considered enough for most games. These days 16 GB is probably a good number. 5 years from now? Who knows.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2021
    • Like Like x 3
  37. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2019
    Messages:
    627
    Likes Received:
    710
    DTG JD can you confirm that if thameslink is added as a dlc for this route that as things stand last gen will be excluded? As to my rationale if you are excluding layers for last gen now, surely any dlc will have to be next gen only?

    Also can you clarify the fix time for adding layers for last gen, will this be sent to Adams team to look at it...or will it remain with the core team over the next 2 months to have the final say if last gen will be fixed or if it will be 2 loco only forever for this route?

    Joethefish could you explain how many services would have to be removed from last gen to get say x 1 class 166 on this route? Would it be 200, 500, more pherhaps? (P.s thank you in advance joe, top work and top streaming)
     
    • Like Like x 4
  38. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Messages:
    1,225
    Likes Received:
    3,266
    Of course, but I was talking in relative terms, mainly for TSW and the way it’s currently developed.
     
  39. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2016
    Messages:
    1,831
    Likes Received:
    3,348
    Hm, I don't see any "slanging match" here. Actually, I see only a fairly civil discussion of an important topic.

    Your statement about gen8 is welcome. I'm on PC, so I don't have an actual dog in this hunt, but I didn't hear such a sympathetic line in the stream. Perhaps I missed it.
    I do sense a distinct change in tone towards gen8 players compared with 6 months ago, though. I believe they deserve better. For instance, how about fewer services and more trains/layers.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2021
    • Like Like x 7
  40. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Messages:
    1,225
    Likes Received:
    3,266
    Personally (although my opinion is invalid since I’m not in the position of a gen 8 user) I think that a 1200 playable service timetable is ‘better’.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  41. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2016
    Messages:
    1,831
    Likes Received:
    3,348
    Not at all. I'm on PC, but I'm happy to go to bat for gen8 players.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  42. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Messages:
    1,225
    Likes Received:
    3,266
    The last time I was in said position was with the issue was GWE & HMA, GWE wasn’t so bad as in the grand scheme you didn’t lose too much traffic, HMA however, comparing this on PS4 & PC for example was like comparing 2 different routes, the traffic on gen 8 is just abysmal.

    Now if we look at what improvements DTG have made with Rush Hour, Gen 8 is seeing much busier time tables and many more passengers, I think it’s fair to say that DTG is giving PS4 & X1 as much as it can, even with BML the base timetable is staggering to the point that the layers really don’t hold much to it, the variety is nice, but overall the BML across all platforms will provide one of the busiest routes we have in TSW, and I have no doubt that was difficult to accomplish on gen 8 consoles.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  43. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2018
    Messages:
    1,309
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    I am disappointed that the layers aren't for the old consoles (particularly since it might be a few years until PS5s become widely available), but it is hard to argue with DTG's decision, from my point of view at least.

    That said, having the extra things to do would have been nice while I recover from COVID...
     
    • Like Like x 2
  44. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2021
    Messages:
    2,177
    Likes Received:
    4,047
    I'll throw my 2p in here, as a Gen8 user:

    Having listened to the stream, I get the impression that 500 CL377 Services, and 75 CL387 services, with the 465 and 43 AI, and the 375, 66, 166, etc. Being included (again, at a reduced rate) would be as stressful for the Gen8 Consoles as the full timetable.

    The difference is between 0 services and 1 service.

    You could have 1,000 services or 1 service and the effect is mostly the same, but just having one means the game needs to load it in.

    Considering the number of layers (465, 375, 66, 166, 43, 09 (Still counts)), and the 2 included locos, that's likely the issue, loading all those different things.

    Personally, I'm happy enough with 1.2k services, however the layers would make this route far better.

    A 700 DLC, for example, would likely work on Gen8 as it is only one extra Loco.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  45. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2019
    Messages:
    627
    Likes Received:
    710
    Yet doomotron... yet

    I have a feeling that when the bowl is passed around the last gen user base for a dlc for this route.... o I dont know say... thameslink for example that all of a sudden a fix will be found for layers in a limited way and DTG will be more than happy to take 11.99 from the last gen community... whilst that comment may seem salty as a last gen customer my position is to be a bit cheeky with DTG here until they confirm or deny that no DLC will be made available to last gen users hence forth for this route, thus standing by their layers argument or alternatively if DLC subsequently adds layers will prove if the issue was time or hardware...

    (Sorry to hear about your covid diagnosis, hope you get better soon)
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2021
    • Like Like x 5
  46. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2021
    Messages:
    2,177
    Likes Received:
    4,047
    Hypothetically BML could get a 700 - I doubt the Southern Metro stock will be made a DLC, tbh.

    If, it gets a 700, it would be on Gen8.

    The game then would only have to load 3 locos on these consoles, instead of 3+Layers.

    That's where the issue is, too many locos.

    So a TL DLC would almost certainly be on all platforms.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  47. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2019
    Messages:
    627
    Likes Received:
    710
    However matt on stream last night clearly stated adding just 1 loco alongside the current 2 was too much under testing...

    So I would assume no further dlc for this route, please do listen back to what he said at the beginning, I could be wrong but he effectively confirmed that even x1 class 166 for example could not live with having to go up against the 1200 electrostars

    I do hope you are right trainsimplayer, I would like the thameslink dlc , but it would fly in the face if they cannot add 1 "free" layer like the 166 if you own gwe, but all of a sudden a paid dlc... "o look that works..."
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2021
    • Like Like x 3
  48. 4-COR

    4-COR Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2019
    Messages:
    358
    Likes Received:
    771
    ah yes those famous 377s from reading to redhill
     
    • Like Like x 4
  49. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2021
    Messages:
    2,177
    Likes Received:
    4,047
    I took that part about the 166 on as a bit of an example, I doubt 3 locos would ever be able to tank a route's performance (GWE, anyone?), However I would imagine all the layers would have an effect.

    I hope I'm right there anyway :)
     
  50. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2019
    Messages:
    627
    Likes Received:
    710
    Let's see, hopefully jd/protag/nat are reading this and taking onboard how much of a smack in the face it would be adding a paid dlc for this route on last gen for 1 loco. I see the internal conversation going like this:

    Official Line: "there is no way we could add the 166 for last gen gwe owners...but we can take £11.99 off you if you fancy some class 700 action..."

    Protag/Jd/Nat: "o wait... hang on I see what the last gen community is on about.......Matt....joe... are you sure we cannot add the 166? I see what they mean now...."
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2021
    • Like Like x 4

Share This Page