Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG Natster, Oct 1, 2021.
Why do you post completely irrelevant comments so much ?
(Another great point raised by Skyz2020 and dismissed by some is also really important. By saying that they can't get any of the layers working on old gen means they have effectively ruled out any potential DLC being available on those platforms.)[/QUOTE]
Responce to bart2day
Idk why the reply thing isn't working
I believe someone at DTG in this forum has said there has been spaces left for thameslink
I think DTG have ruled out layers for us last gen user's so we can have add ons
If we had the base DLC the layers and then an add on that would be way too much
So I think us last gen users might be able to handle most(not all mabey a 166 and some 375 stock) of the layers but if we do that then we can't get any new dlc for the route
Just my theory
GWE class 66, not ECW
It’s the ECW 66 because it uses the JNA wagons. Also Matt said in stream it was ECW
First capital connect thank you for the response. So you agree that DTG have deliberately left out the free layers for last gen so that in effect they can bill us £11.99 for the class 700 dlc in due course?
So I would think by now DTG should just come clean with this tactic as many are now well aware of the game that is afoot by leaving a gap in the table for the 700 but somehow the 166 is some how a Everest mission ....
I do note the reply button is not working
Update now working again at 12.45
Yh I agree with you and DTG just has to say that this is basically the reason
I think the 166 isn't a big mission but I think if they gave the 166 people would be asking for the 465 and in turn everything else
I would rather a 166 over the other layers but there's not much we can do
Working for me.
There’s a gap in the timetable on Gen 8 consoles for everything, they haven’t made a new timetable for Gen 8, they just haven’t filled the gaps with layers because of the reasons given.
DTG haven’t said there will be a loco DLC for the route, and they haven’t said Gen 8 will get one even if there is ever a DLC.
Even if there ever is a DLC for it, you aren’t forced into buying it, £11.49 doesn’t disappear from your bank account the moment DTG announce a loco DLC.
And in any case I suspect a lot of people would rather have a TL 700 that runs the entire length of the route, as opposed to a 166 that only runs 19 minute services calling at 3 stations.
Not sure why the few of you are getting yourselves worked up over something that isn’t even happening anyway.
Reply button working again. Agreed on the 166
And I agree that DTG need to be very clear early on that the lack of layers early doors for last gen = no dlc on this route for last gen also, after all Matt said on stream under current testing just 1x 166 would crash everything on last gen, so the 700 would be no different
you buy a new Xbox Series X not for TSW alone, it’s for all new games like Forza or Halo, or other exklusive Games.
Just like a PS5 for games like Gran Turismo 7 or Spider-Man
I will come back to your quote when they drop the £11.99 to add the 700 into the last gen time table whilst still saying the 166 is a no go CK95. But it is healthy to debate and I appreciate your input. Out of curiosity CK95 are you last gen or next gen as I accept my angle is biased by being on last gen. As ever good to hear from all angles
Thankfully I’ve not seen anyone bragging about getting layers yet , I’m pretty sure I will though
This is my point though, where has this idea of a 700 come from? DTG certainly haven’t said they’ll be releasing one, in fact they said exactly the opposite, they aren’t making, or planning on making one.
On the contrary, I’ll play devils advocate and say that DTG are planning a 700, and have purposefully ensured that it will run on the route by not including any other layers, in order to allow something on the route to add a significant amount of gameplay, because the 166 really doesn’t add much barring visual variety (although I recall joe saying there is an additional southern service layer bundled in with the GWE layer).
There’s also the other outcome to consider, which is that IF a TL DLC evert surfaces, it could be on its own route, or for another existing route, which would potentially mean a layer for BML, a layer which Gen 8 possibly would not get.
All of the above is unlikely anyway as the Class 700 is a mess of legality when it comes to licensing, and we probably won’t see it full stop.
As for my personal platform it is indeed a PS5, which due to current issues means that I have to delete older routes in order to play newer ones, 2 of the routes I currently have deleted included GWE & WSR, as the majority of my DLC is either played regularly or is providing layers for other DLC, so I am also in the predicament of loosing layers somewhere.
The bottom line is that Gen 8 has no active layers for BML and DTG are not planning on introducing any other layers to any platform full stop for BML, this whole ‘DTG are going to sell a class 700 layer’ is something you’ve concocted all by yourself and is completely unfounded, barring the fact that DTG left space in the timetable for it, which is something that we, the community, voted for them to do, it is in no way indicative of a DLC.
You are in a pickle with this pesky PS5 bug. I suppose when you choose a route to play, you have to make sure you haven't deleted a route that adds layers to it. A new route like BML just adds to the problem. Let's hope it's fixed very soon, though it seems the stars are not yet aligned.
I'm on PC so I don't have this problem. If iI did, the way I play I wouldn't want to delete anything, so I'd probably just throw up my hands and go out and mow the lawn or something.
Interesting points CK95. I respect your view point as a ps5 user, however I think I will come back to you when the dlc money bowl is passed round the last gen community in the next few months as I cant see their flagship u.k route not having a dlc which in effect means layers are possible for last gen.
History tells us what will come:
SEHS: Yes - 465
Bakerloo: Yes - 1938 stock
TVL: Yes - class 20
NTP: Yes - Heavy Freight
GWR: Yes - legends
But maybe your right the above does not prove a future dlc for bml is planned, but if I had a flagship route like this one and I had a history like the above of creaming the curve with dlc... well we shall see
(P.S now would be a good point to hear from DTG Protagonist as he has always been a great advocate for the community on all platforms. I bet he will not rule out a dlc for this route on all platforms thus proving my point...)
Well come next week I’ve lined up what can go if the issue isn’t fixed and it’ll be Cathcart that gets the chop so that I can get GWE in.
But yeah since a lot of routes now layer somewhere or other this issue is quickly going to spiral.
Well frankly I’m bored of using logic, so all I will say is that I’m glad you’re in charge of deciding which routes will get DLC.
I very much look forward to the class 700 that you have all but guaranteed us.
More than likely they would do a separate timetable for the 700s on the old consoles rather than try to force them to do something they can't do
And of course you're not paying "£11.99 to add the 700 into the last gen time table", there are many places and possible routes a 700 can run, they go up the MML from St Pancras, along the North Kent Lines and onto the SEHS route (in game) from Northfleet to Rainham, they do the Orpington runs and Sevenoaks runs and the Sutton loop...
Any of those routes that get built would be able to use the 700 in theory so your £12 would be well spent
Me too, see you in a few months when DTG announce a dlc for this route... which i think is likely
Thanks ruscoe for input, I hope the 700 does come and to be honest if it comes in a new timetable excellent, this might be how they get the 166 working aswell. I am pro dlc, pro 700, but disappointed with the excuse that x1 166 breaks everything for last gen.
Like you I think £12 for the 700 would also represent value for other routes, just hope when/if it does get announced it makes it into this new route as it will add variety for last gen users like me
I think the healthy debate/discussion starts to fizzle out here because it seems that if you can't have it, nobody should have it. I get you are sad/gutted that the decision hasn't gone in your favour but if they have decided it won't suit older gen, it is something that sadly just cannot be implemented.
Quite to contrary alex I think last gen will have it... just in the form of a dlc (paid) and in the form of a new loco (most likely 700), which is why the debate is healthy. I have nothing against next gen users, to go further if you have spent £350 (bought a ps5 for example) to get these layers that deserves massive respect it's your cash after all and I hope it gives you great satisfaction seeing the 465, 166, 66, 43 all fizzing around
When I say most southern services have been included, this is one of the few that unfortunately have not. You can read why here:
It's not like DTG will be pocketing that 350 quid; and it's not like your new PS5 will only be used for Train Sim World. Besides, did anyone complain to Rockstar that when the 8th gen/PC version of GTAV released, that it had features not to be found on the original 7th gen release? Technology marches on; not many games being released for Windows 95 these days.
Nor is the situation all that different from where I find myself on Thursday, in fact worse, because BML is such a busy route that my ancient five-year-old PC may simply choke to death on it, and either crash or have a framerate in the slideshow range. Which means, if that turns out to be the case, I can't play BML at all (despite having paid for the bundle), and won't be able to play it unless I fork out for at minimum a new GPU (at least two times the cost of a whole PS5), or a whole new gaming computer (as much as a cheap used car).
You do make some interesting points here solicitor.
What percentage of the PC market will struggle do you think?
Anyone with less than 8GB of ram for example?
If I was only going to be able to have one extra train on the route over the two Electrostars, I think I'd rather have a full Class 700 DLC with loads of services and scenarios, than a layer of the 166 which I've already driven loads. Particularly knowing that I'd get the 166 when I inevitably upgrade to PS5 anyway...
Anyone with less than 16GB of ram more like. DTG really needs to revise its minimum and recommended requirements upwards, at least for PC.
This is a good point factor and proves that the 166 is possible now for last gen and maybe...maybe dtg are being cruel to be kind, no 166 (stick), but with a bit of extra money (£11.99/carrot) here is the 700 that we know you will use , not that I agree with the approach here if used , but I can see the angle
Even Dovetail would never just disregard such a serious section of the community. They clearly want to get the layers on Gen8, but couldn't.
They stated on the stream - and repeated on here - that the layers (with all locos) crashed the last gen every single time.
And if they did something like just have the 166 and 66, for example, then everyone *demands* the rest.
It's a cycle. Someone has to break it, or prevent it from starting.
Plus, a 700 DLC - which works out to 8tph between East Croydon and Gatwick, would more than make up for the layers.
So I'd happily pay the £11.99 or whatever it is for that.
You alson don't know how much RAM the hypothetical 700 might use compared to the 166 which is in the preserved collection so pretty old in terms of who it was built.
We keep banging on about memory optimisation but this is probably much easier on a loco made from the ground up where the money to pay for development would come from the increased revenue of more last gen player buying it. Most last gen players probably already own the 166, or never will, so they'd be much less extra money if DTG spent development time optimising it to run on BML.
I'm not saying they this is the case, just it's not as simple as saying if X train will run on the route without crashing then Y train will as well.
Absolutely. I struggled with 8; I couldn't run HMA acceptably until I upgraded to 16.
I think ram consumption is a fair point matt. Pherhaps dtg matt or adam at some point could explain if there is a memory difference from a loco built from scratch or a legacy one such as the 166. I do agree that there is an argument to be made that the 700 would generate revenue and said revenue could be spent looking at both issues to see if a middle ground could be investigated for the last gen community. Good post
Always a balanced view from yourself trainsimplayer, thanks for the post, was helpful in terms of the east Croydon dynamics
I never said we will get a loco add on
I said there was spaces in the timetable for thameslink if it was implemented IF I F
Our last gen consoles would crumble like a digestive biscuit If we was to have layers and addons again if, not definite but if
I'm pretty sure we will get a dlc
Like I said it looks like they have removed the layers to allow us to have potential addons which will most likely come in the form of a thameslink train or 455
Agreed first capital, have to admit i feel snookered, resigned to not getting the 166 as a last gen user, and can see myself giving in and paying for 700, which is what DTG are banking on (literally)
Always happy to help.
I always try to see both sides of the arguement at all times, so the balance is going to stay for a good while yet
Ultimately I think if the limited layers issue is going to continue being a problem beyond the next year or so (ie. if RAM-limited platforms are going to continue to be supported), the easiest option would be to allow players to manually switch timetable layers on and off, giving each platform a sort of RAM overhead budget (so you could for instance on PC have all layers turned on but a PS4 or XB1 might have a limited amount of layers that could be active at once so it becomes player choice). Playing on XB1 and want a 166 layer in place of the GX 387s? Go for it.
This might (with some thought) also allow DTG to bridge the gap between players who want full realism and those who want a busy route (for instance if GWR HST was a switchable layer in the upcoming West Cornwall route as some are requesting). I'd prefer to have things as realistic as possible to the route timeframe, but that shouldn't necessarily stop players who want a super busy timetable-out-of-time.
You could then also switch on/off the creatively licensed 'diversion' 375 and HST layers in BML if you felt they weren't sufficiently realistic (although they are definitely to my liking!).
Possible Post of the day Matt
I hope DTG are listening as the community are coming up with some cracking ideas particularly timetable related aka like diesel legends
I am pretty sure a post by Maik Goltz said that the BR420 would have its own timetable, but because of substitution differences and not memory issues.
There is a very big difference between bonus services and a full DLC. DTG have no obligation to give us a 166 between Reigate and Gatwick, but they do have an obligation to let us play with DLC we paid for. And anyway, due to licensing issues, the Class 700 will likely never come anyway. And it's unlikely the 455 will either (I suppose they'd have Brighton diversions), since Govia Thameslink Railway are likely going the same way as Southeastern...
I can also see myself giving in for a 700 which would be epic but licensing is an issue
A couple of things in response to some talk on this thread about layers and loco DLC.
1. There is already another layer we don’t know about yet, as Joe’s favourite service is in that layer. This will be from a loco DLC, either bespoke to this route or layering in from a certain ECW loco DLC. There may be both.
2. The 166 is an old model and is less efficient with its memory use than later TSW models, as can be seen by the number of its services being reduced for the old consoles in GWE. The same goes for the HST layer. Adding those in would scupper any chance of the old consoles running the newer loco DLC layer forever.
3. If DTG put in the inefficient 166 layer and then said no old console owners could have access to the newer loco DLC there would be a bigger fallout than having the 166 layer missing. Even though that will cost money to buy, not having the ability to buy a loco that has services integral to the route (let’s face it, it’s probably something beginning with T) would upset a lot of people who would then be calling for the immediate removal of the 166 layer.
You may not know but the loco DLC can form an integral part of some routes when they are designed and may form part of the overall revenue structure of the route while the two are intrinsically linked. Something is coming. Possibly something that people would trade a 166 and a limb to get their hands on alongside paying the £12 for the loco (more than the price of the route in the bundle). Other people will prefer the free stuff (not totally free, as the extra layers are always tied to other purchases).
4. The extra layers are tied to other purchases, which in itself stops some users (on all platforms) from getting them based on their available funds, in the same way that people with fewer funds can’t afford better hardware. You can see that with the vast number of DLC you have to buy to get the full experience on German routes. This just shows there are other issues around availability of a full exoerience, not just the difference in the power of the consoles.
Agreed your profile pic is proof of that, the fgw Livery never made it back to gwe. (Unless you have the pc mod)
That's First Capital Connect...
A fine post by Mr stujoy and challenging Matt from earlier for post of the day.
I found it a good read and marked it as helpful
Haha you are quite right , my bad
I see some talk about the 166, but will the 375 and 465 still be on AI services on old consoles? I could care less about missing a 166 between a few stations, but a half-empty Victoria would be quite off-putting.
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