Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG Natster, Jul 21, 2021.
I really hope that's the case... but I wouldn't bet on that
It almost feels like a 'If you don't buy this now boring route without branches that is just like everything you already own, with the same trains, you don't get any layers from now on, so give us money'. If the time comes, and I do decide not to buy BRD, it might also mean I won't be interested in future routes that use it's layers.
Personally I'll soon have less time to play games, due to me going to university, so I'll have a good think about whether I'll invest more money and time in TSW, or will have more fun (for less money) with other games.
Wow... just wow...
Rush Hour was going to be THE deal, three routes I was looking forward to and while the rolling stock was mostly more of the same, the whole package was a steal and it really looked things were going back on the right track. I was excited.
I would have gladly accepted the increase in price and gave 10€ extra for the package if it was just that.
I would say nothing about the staggered release, at least it means I can dedicate some time to exploring each route without the "Which one first?" question bugging me.
I would probably still accept the cutting down of Dresden - Riesa, with a lot of gnashing of the teeth.
But to get an increase in price AND a cut in content AND not much new in terms of the rolling stock? That is a huge disappointment for me.
Dresden - Riesa was the route I was most excited for, this was going to be THE route for me, with great variety in rolling stock and many branches. What was going to set it apart from other TSW 2 routes.
I probably could've taken this better if this was announced today with this feature list rather than "content cut & price hike, be excited" article, but this? What happened to the policy of only promising what is going to be delivered? I guess that went straight out of the window. I understand there is still a covid-19 pandemic going on and this continues to make the development more difficult, but don't give us light at the end of the tunnel and then snatch it away.
I am sorry about the tone of this post, but my disappointment has reached critical levels. I've thought many times the community was overly dramatic and "it was not THAT bad", but I guess this is it for me. At least it once again teaches me to NEVER get excited about a product that is yet in development.
I cannot support this.
your disappointed customer.
I'm not likely to buy German stuff. It ain't my interest.
Give it a rest, eh?
I'm not going to buy something for the possibility I might need it later.
I'm not fully ruling out the season pass but it's not in my consideration right now.
I'll see how the situation develops
Ahahah sorry I will, to each their own I guess.
For me, DTG is now just the embodiment of disappointment. Personally, I have nothing against the 10 € more or that the 3 routes are not released at the same time but that the branches to Meissen and the Airport fall away really sucks. I wouldn't mind if you told us the branches will be handed in later but as it looks now, Rush hour has become a single disappointment (for me)
news for multiplayer
None. Not in production or planning.
Well, after all the feedback on the wrong Dostos DTG said they were listening.
Time to prove it. There is some very clear feedback here that shortening Riesa Dresden was a bad decision and that people would rather wait for the full route.
Will DTG really listen? There is still time to change plans again. I doubt it. Disappointing
I'd happily accept a delay to the dresden route if they include the branches, hopefully we make enough noise that they reconsider, and include the branches, don't forget we made noise in regards to precol not having scenario planner, they went back and added it in, maybe just maybe DTG will do the same, I'd rather the route be pushed back than have good portion removed.
Yes, this is their clear chance to do something about what the community thinks. If you want to earn our trust back, the way to do it seems 'simple': Give us the full Riesa - Dresden route, with the branches as originally announced.
I’m still very happy with the price, it’s still an absolute bargain.
It looks like they may have bitten off more than they could chew but I think it was always going to be too good to be true.
Just on BRD layering- it is highly unlikely that that would happen. Why? Well, the MSB 146 and Dostos form a simple and generic DB Regio train, good for use across the German routes in game. The BRD ones are from S-Bahn Dresden, and should be covered in a fair deal of area-specific branding. Not very good for use across Germany. I think that at best, BRD will just be an HMA with layers that console can use and some interesting freight services, not bad, but not anywhere near as awesome as what we were initially told we would be getting.
Here is a picture of the BRD Dostos for reference:
PLEASE PLEASE postpone the Dresden Riesa release. You can't be happy yourself with what you can read here. I think 99% of the players wouldn't mind if this route only comes in October but it is complete
Exactly. If when RH was announced two months ago DTG had stated "Three routes for forty bucks, staggered release in September-October," and never promised the S-Bahn lines, this whole angry thread wouldn't exist.
Personally, I would off bought all 3, if the branches were included for Riesa Dresden. Now I will probably only get Brighton Mainline as thats the one i'm most looking forward to. Although saying that, I may change my mind when watching the gameplay streams.
This is my two pennyworth. Sorry if the points have already been made but I don’t fancy reading through five pages of comments. I’ve tried to be balanced and constructive.
Firstly, I am disappointed with the price being £34.99 instead of £24.99 but you are still getting 3 routes for this price so if you want all three or even two, it’s still a bargain. If you only want one, it’s still normal price (which hasn’t increased since the beginning of TSW) and the core update is free.
I’m disappointed that the three routes won’t be released together but I’ve always been of the opinion that I’d rather wait for a quality product than a rushed release to meet an artificial release date. Just don’t disappoint us when Brighton is released.
With regards to the Dresden route, I’m disappointed that the branches won’t be included (the inclusion of branches is one thing that convinced me to buy Cathcart Circle). However, we haven’t “lost” 23 km. We never got it in the first place. Many existing routes are less than 82km but the loss of variation in gameplay is the big problem.
There are a lot of disappointed punters (including me) following this announcement. I really hope that they will reconsider the Dresden branch issue (though I won’t hold my breath) as this seems to be a major issue with the user base and may have had a huge negative impact on DTG-User relations.
To their credit, at least they have given us plenty of advance notice of these changes rather than drop them on us at the last moment.
I was thinking all the routes would be released all together ? . Now it's a staggered release.
What was wrong with the £24,99 price point for 3 routes ?.
The reigate branch is a two mile addition that is being sold for TS for £7.99 so that's nice to see.
Does this mean there will be more Season ticket style releases
They probably laughed about the comments here and say we scam 10€ more for cutting stuff.
Well, I do not often post here, and I'm really reluctant to complain, duly or unduly, as there is quite a lot of it going on without my participation anyway, but as it is requested, and I feel pretty frustrated...
Probably I won't say anything that hasn't been said already, but here it is.
I'm totally fine with the idea of "plans change". I fully understand that sometimes a tough business decision needs to be made, and while I guess most if not all people at DTG love trains as much as we, the players do, it is a business project at the end of the day, and the numbers need to add up. So while certainly I would never be going to celebrate the price increase or the staggered release, it would be easy enough to understand and accept. Three routes for 40 euros is still going to be a bargain. Even the reduced length of the Riesa-Dresden, even though I was really looking forward to that route due to its branched nature, I would have not been angry about. Somewhat disappointed, yes, but not angry. It would have been acceptable without any big problem to me. Would: if you were honest and fair about it.
The thing is: you were not. Packing what is essentially a series of disappointing news to the community into a triumphantly-sounding story is already bad enough. I see it as an insult to my intelligence as a customer. Hey, get excited about getting your eagerly awaited new releases with a delay! The Season Pass is a great way to grab all the routes that were supposed to be released together, but won't! Really? Admittedly, many modern companies are guility of this, but this does not make me happier. But the thing does not end there. What is absolutely worst here, is how you hid the German route news in a FAQ. What did you expect? That the community, which is capable of instantly highlighting incorrect diameter of a headlight on a minuscule screenshot will not notice? Or perhaps that simply many people won't go to the forums? It was absolutely obvious that it will be discovered instantly, revealing an absolutely silliy communication strategy. And now you actually added insult to injury by stating, and here I quote, that "The article was written to give you the information you need to know." So is the route length reduction somehow something we "do not need" to know? I was always impressed with the way you handled this community, which is pretty rowdy at times, so it's even more stunning to read such a comment.
Until this debacle, I had really appreciated the transparency of TSW development (as opposed to TS1). I fully understood that sometimes life is tough and not all expectations can materialise, not all the promises can be met even. But this has really been shameful. So here it is, this is how I feel, and I hope it was still "important to know". Even though by business logic it won't be, because I'll purchase the blasted thing anyway.
Sadly, I think DTG will have the opinion that we are a small (but vocal) minority. A majority of people that buy Rush Hour will never know that The route has been shortened and will never see these forums.
I will be reluctantly voting with my wallet. But realistically, will DTG miss my money? Probably not. I hope they do listen, but I can’t see it happening.
I can't help wondering if the decision to axe part of the Dresden route in favour of sticking to the release date is a result of some of the pressure put on DTG from some forum users? I'm not trying to defend DTG, or have a dig at anyone in particular, but sometimes I really do think they're stuck between a rock a hard place with TSW... Users complain they don't get enough info, DTG give out more info on streams, roadmaps, etc... They then complain that something has been pushed back on the roadmap, or that something else was released on time but had a bug in it... They just can't win.
Maybe, just maybe, this thread might make DTG reconsider their plans for Dresden, perhaps reinstating the removed sections but at a cost of "it's ready when it's ready" - but the forum goers need to be accepting of that and not use it as yet another club to bash the people trying to get this stuff made for us.
Just buy the bundle, then delete Riesa-Dresden.
I don't think players get excited about being able to buy routes at a lower price than usual. But we do get excited about the content that we're going to be able to enjoy on those routes.
So you can imagine where the biggest disappointment is going to be when it comes to modifying one of those two things, and most of the comments I see reflect that. Few seem to mind the price increase but removing those 23 Kms has been like a kick in the crotch.
I don't understand how a veteran company like DTG can make these rookie mistakes in communication. They are promoting rush hour and instead of creating hype they are creating rejection.
Wow, one day not really active on the forums and all of this goes down. The lost trackage on BRD is regrettable, but pretty much hiding this change instead of openly drawing attention to it is absolutely unacceptable. It's a marketing article, I get it, but with all of the talk about transparency, this was clearly not transparent. I'm not gonna claim that anyone actually tried to hide it, but such a change should never be tucked away in what's basically a footnote.
It's also becoming increasingly clear that DTG are struggling more and more with their own deadlines. I get that DTG have to release a certain number of DLCs in a certain time frame for their business model to work, but if there's no way to extend the time spend on DLCs then projects should be planned (and announced) more carefully.
I would rather have the route delayed tbh. When will dtg learn to stop sticking to deadlines, although I suppose it’s better than overpromising (like they did with tsw2020)
TBH, I think it more likely that DTG's venture-capital backers are insisting on a constant flow of releases, with no slippage in shipping product. It's EA rather than Rockstar management philosophy,* which I find disenheartening.
* EA: "It ships on the carved-in-stone release date, whether it's ready or not. Shareholders expect quarterly revenues."
R*: "You'll get it whenever it's done, not before."
After reading this entire thread and the article, I am suprised but then again not suprised.
For those who called for price increases, congratulations you won the lottery
In all seriousness though this isn't fully surprising. Dovetail Games is a company that keeps setting expectations they can't meet themselves. This is a company that tells players to have low expectations yet perhaps they should do that themselves. They say we want to do this but can not deliver it seems. Heck this game has been in development for almost 5 years and we still don't have 100+ mile long routes. What I don't understand is why in the world dtg would try to hide the fact that BRD will not have the branch lines and then when asked say "This Article Was written to give you information that you need to know". So is not knowing that the branch lines wouldn't be included information that we don't need. That's not good communication at all and frankly disrespectful to people who spend their hard earned money on this game and is no wonder why some are frustrated. Also not everyone who plays tsw2 watches the streams either. The streams also made it seem like the branch lines would be included but this is yet again dtg setting goals they can't meet themselves. The season ticket is somewhat of a good value but that name alone is quite misleading because it makes it sound like a season pass which is basically if you own a season pass in most games, you will get dlc's for free and not have to pay for them separately so if players buy the season ticket some may think it's a season pass and might get future dlc outside of rush hour for free. Not to mention players who choose to buy it are paying more for less content.
The main issue with this decision is that if players choose to get brd, they would be paying more for less content. BRD introduces no new trains at all so it will be another a to b German route. Not all modern German routes are the same but I think if dtg keeps making the same a to b German route with no variety or branches then that may cause some to lose interest overtime and can lead to less sales. It seems brd with the branches would've offered more variety even if the trains are effectively reused. There are some who are getting tired of seeing the same a to b german route with the same train again and again which is understandable.
Now I know BML will have a branch line, but it's only a 2 mile branch line with one extra station so that offers little to no consolidation for some. For Me personally at least we get extra services.
Now I have seen some calls for BRD to be pushed back further for the branches to be added but some have to understand that dtg are a business. If brd was pushed back even further, a longer backlog would be created which means certain content and bug fixes that may have to go through testing will have to wait longer. However dtg are the ones that decide when things have to be done and released, not us so frankly these time constraints are their fault. That is one problem I have with dtg. They say things that they want to do can't meet or do it due to the time constraints they put on themselves. It's like they haven't learned the mistakes they made before about things like the editor or multiplayer. What they seriously need to do is be firm on what they can do instead of saying we will do this and then not delivering. If the branch lines hadn't been announced in the first place, there probably wouldn't be this much backlash.
Will I personally be getting rush hour? This is a wait and see for me personally because I don't want to keep investing in a company that keeps making the same mistakes over and over again. Do I think the branch lines will be added to brd, probably not.
We would much rather you delay the route even more than to not include the branch lines. It's what made the route interesting.
They probably will think we are a minority.
Which is a shame because I have seen most of the people who I commonly see on the forums posting on this thread.
I remember the good old days of Rare when they made games exclusively for Nintendo. Their games were often delayed, on some occasions multiple times, because they wanted to get the game just right. They even started completely from scratch with Conkers Bad Fur Day.
Contrast this with DTG. You’ll get what we can be bothered to give you in the limited time we set ourselves. Like it or lump it.
Great way to run a business.
This is a very good argument actually. I still deep down hope for a turn we've made last year with Preserved collection compatibility. But I seriously doubt it this time. Anyway, time for a Round 2.
Well Sam was wrong wasn’t he! He said existing players wouldn’t find this announcement that interesting. Seems we all found it very interesting, just not in the way we’d hoped.
Considering huge publishers such as Ubisoft, EA, etc. have had multiple delays on titles this year to answer your question “how hard is it to say a date?” It’s actually pretty hard to do.
This isn't the announcement, that's still to come apparently!
Ah, you presume it's a mistake. I would not be so sure. The marketing article is supposed to be just that, a marketing article for a new upcoming product. It is one of the ways of running corporate communication that you do not mention your errors or earlier promises, especially if it is likely that many people will not notice. And that may very well be a case. I think it is safe to assume that most people who read the article will not dive into the forums. Even more true for those who only read Steam annoucements for instance. I think it is also safe to assume that active (or even passive) users of these forums are a relatively tiny minority of entire player base. So simply our frustration costs less than admitting an error to all customers.
That said, I still do not understand why they could not have kept the marketing post as it is, and given a longer and more honest story here in the forums, to just give some token of respect to this community, without "unduly" alarming the larger player base. This could have easily been done, and without any harm to the company strategy, as it was 100% certain the story will break out here anyway.
Disappointing, although for a person living in a corporate environment, not totally unexpected.
Wow I picked the wrong day to wait until the afternoon to check the forums lol.
Overall, pretty disappointing that the Dresden route has been cut back so drastically. Obviously something went very wrong with development, or they would not have published an article only a few weeks ago highlighting sections of the route that are now no longer in development. I'd like to learn more about what happened, if possible. Was it more of a technical limitation, or more of a budgetary problem?
The other stuff I don't really mind so much. I think it'll be really interesting too see if this will be their publishing model going forward.
My prediction for tomorrow's announcement:
TSW2 base package (BKL/HKA/SPG) will be going Free2Play effective immediately (or at least very soon).
It's both "low excitement" and "not very interesting for existing players".
It also follows logically from a financial standpoint with the season pass model being announced.
It brings in a new audience to sell DLC to and more people to sell the season pass to, providing much-needed (I suspect) short-term capital.
Then every quarter or so, they'll sell a new season pass with 2 or 3 routes, and sell loco DLC and 3rd-party content sprinkled throughout the year as they have in the past.
They could also then sell alternative liveries and/or timetables as further paid content and/or unlockable via completing season pass XP levels (see Warzone, Apex Legends, etc).
I'm not necessarily endorsing this model, but it sure seems like what's coming.
And I wonder what other things they have for up their selves to disappoint us!
The fallout from this is bigger than anything I've seen playing this game so far. I really hope DTG doesn't think that the people that would rather see a delay than the cutting of the S-bahn lines are a minority.
Please, DTG, listen to what we're saying. We want those branches, and we wouldn't mind paying more for them.
Also, be more upfront with such announcements instead of trying to hide them in an article that puts everything like it's just great.
I also have a question in regards to the content on BRD.
Has the DB BR 363 announced last week been cut as well? Or is the Steam page a misrepresentation yet again?
Totally agree with everything you say. Additionally, the Rush Hour routes don’t NEED to be released at the same time as the core update. I suggest releasing the core update with NEC and Brighton at the planned dates and revisit the Dresden route to add the branches and release it later (still within the Season Pass). I’m prepared to wait and it the comments here are anything to go by, so are most people.
Come on DTG, listen to us for a change and admit you’ve made a big mistake. Get the user base back on side. You know it makes sense.
I don't think it's a Season Pass model that DTG are introducing.
They've just named it "The Season Ticket" because it's being released over a season (Summer) and it sounds vaguely train related.
Another year waste for TSW
Meet you again next year DTG
Then I can hardly wait for the actual announcement! Actually I can. Thursday’s stream is just going to be a fire fight against a fast scrolling angry chat window. I think I’ll give it a miss.
Zero faith BML will be released before the end of summer. Not even got a release date for the first route yet. Way to kill the RH vibe DTG
I’m sorry but DTG have shot themselves in the foot once again! Why on earth to you continue to over promise and under deliver?
Your lack of transparency is beyond staggering…hiding vital pieces of information in an FAQ - just be upfront and take the flak - the responses here are purely down to your attitude towards your community!
Watching your streams recently I notice the increased brusqueness of your Community Managers and Producers when being asked pertinent questions. Your failure to fix faults even when DTG acknowledge they exist is inexcusable. I decided a few months ago to stop buying dlc until you actually deliver what you promised. In my opinion DTG simply see us as cash cows who should simply buy whatever is thrown at them and be grateful.
Good luck for the future. You’ll need it!
Buy a big bag of popcorn and watch the fireworks!
And then complain about the size of the download, no doubt.
No, it's not. TSW2 comes with 3 routes and costs £24.99. TSW2020 on PS4 came with 6, and also cost £24.99. What justifies the extra £10?
and then to think that more work had to be done for TSW 2 than for Rush Hour, as that Unreal upgrade was much more work...
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