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Train Sim World 2 - Now All Summer Long

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG Natster, Jul 21, 2021.

  1. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    May as well make it the year 2031. There is never going to be an editor.
    You can stop holding your breath.
     
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  2. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Now that's something Im curious to hear from dtg
     
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  3. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Yep, because if there was an editor, people would make the routes they want themselves, like the full Riesa - Dresden, without paying an euro to DTG, let alone 40. Even though an editor would help keep the game alive, DTG seems focussed on the now, and we won't get an editor.
     
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  4. Lombra

    Lombra Well-Known Member

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    Of course not. For starters we weren't even given a release date to begin with, and second, if anything the route is still delayed, since it's not going to be released on day one.

    The issue you describe is not a real issue. People who complain about delays are simply impatient and don't know what's good for them, and even then they probably understand that unexpected delays sometimes are necessary. Actually I think most of these people aren't actually asking for stuff to be released earlier. (ie incomplete) DTG don't want delays more than anyone else. They want to be able to "cash in" as soon as "possible". The "other" people are the ones who actually want a better game.

    You can be unhappy about your pizza delivery taking too long time, but that of course doesn't mean you want a pizza without topping just so that it may be delivered on time. The solution is of course to provide a more accurate ETA.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2021
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  5. frank351981

    frank351981 Member

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    Would be a compromise if DTG would change the release date of Dresden - Riesa to become more time to finish and add leastways the section to Meissen. For the section to the airport I can live without, but Meißen was missed already in the TS-route.
     
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  6. DeStijl

    DeStijl Well-Known Member

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    Seriously, the idea that anyone wants DTG to release broken, half finished content just so that they can have it a bit sooner is absolute nonsense. No one is asking for that, it's just an excuse that DTG uses to avoid blame for their total lack of ability to build or test a quality product.
     
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  7. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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    If there are more announcements in tomorrow's live stream and the article is not the place for official bad news as Natalie told us, one can assume there are more news that can disappoint us. People will not be checking the forum or VODs before buying a game or a DLC so it makes for the perfect places to drop them.

    Somebody mentioned getting Rush Hour on his Game pass but, unless I've been scammed by Microsoft, I only see TSW 2020 included.
    Maybe someone at DTG can look into this aspect as well because offering a game without support is not the best thing to do.

    As I usually try to learn as much as possible from previous experiences, I am not disappointed by what has been announced because I had no expectation as I knew what DTG is capable of looking at the recent past events.

    I am in a "whatever" mood when it comes to DTG but instead, I am super hyped of the big chunk of games that are coming (in time) for the Xbox pass this autumn. I would say save your energy and enthusiasm for who deserves it and move on from the constant disappointment that DTG represents.
     
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  8. Shaun123

    Shaun123 Well-Known Member

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    You mean the same DLC, that you always say you’re boycotting and will never buy again, yet here we are?!
     
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  9. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    As am I. I can't wait for lost judgment to come out along with the new battlefield game. I also recently bought F1 2021. I am also looking foward to simrail 2021
     
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  10. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    They shortened a route, and instead of putting that front and center and explaining why they hid it in the fine print. It's hard to believe that they were doing it for anything but malicious reasons. Likewise doing that on top of increasing the price really put a sour taste in my mouth, and I wasn't even planning on buying it, can't imagine how people that are/were actually planning to are feeling.

    Also keep in mind they have very mixed message, they'll say they can't add a train people want to a timetable because it's not realistic. Only to include a train on another route because they can't put in the time to make a train that fits better. They announce they're delaying something to ensure it's high quality, only to have it drop and be a buggy mess. When you have such inconsistent logic people have good reason to distrust and dislike you. DTG made (or perhaps didn't make is more apt) their bed, and it's silly to blame the neighbor for not coming over and prepare it for them. That was their job to do, if they didn't want to sleep in bedbug infested sheets they should've taken care of it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2021
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  11. Yorkshirelad

    Yorkshirelad Member

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    Do

    CEO is EX EA so what do you expect
     
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  12. pauldseath

    pauldseath New Member

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    I know everyone is upset about promises broken and time being added to release. However, remember no release date was given, just summer. Also, we are getting a major free update. I am willing to wait until the routes are sorted and come out.

    And there has been a little thing called Covid 19 that has hampered production and costs have gone up for everything. Still £34.99 is still a good price, and if you want to protest against DTG then don’t buy it.

    I personally have no problem because DTG are one of the few companies supporting Train Sim on Consoles. Therefore, I am quite happy with what we get as I use TSW to escape real trains at work (I work for GA) and my laptop can not run TS2021 very well.
     
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  13. Ps4Player

    Ps4Player Well-Known Member

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    Wow, what a disappointment.
    I guess I'll skip rush hour and wait for a discount later.
    It's OK to raise the price and take your time to get good quality, but why take branches away if they make a route special.
     
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  14. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    Incidentally, no Matt on the live stream tonight. Maybe he’s attempting to clean up the pile that hit the fan a few hours ago.

    If I was DTG, I’d be bunkered down in crisis talks about now. This backlash is the strongest I’ve seen since my time on the forums and I’ve seen a few.
     
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  15. russianchip

    russianchip Active Member

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    If past experience is to go by then the release date that is given will be pushed back by a week or two anyway
     
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  16. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that's what all this boils down to.

    Price increases we can understand
    Dalays we can understand
    Turning an interesting route into a boring one by removing branches that were promised earlier? That's enough to make me wait on buying and consider not buying, and that does frustrate and dissapoint me.

    I was really really looking forward to Rush Hour, and now I'm not, and that really is a dissapointment. I have been following news and articles enthousiastically, and now all of a sudden I feel completely done with this game and it's endless let downs.
     
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  17. acro

    acro Member

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    I might be entirely wrong here but isn't DTG is a private company that is funded by private investors? If this is the case it would logically follow that they have timeframes in which they are expected to ship a certain amount of units or make an arbitrary amount of profit. This means it's not just as simple as "Delay this product because the customer wants more included". Now obviously they made a blunder in terms of underestimating their workload once again which resulted in a shortening of Riesa Dresden which has now become something a lot less interesting. I too am annoyed by this, but I can only assume it was shortened so that in whatever timeframe their investors have given they can still make a route that attempts to be of a similar level of quality to CCL even if it's had to end up shorter because of it.

    This could also quite easily explain the reason for the price increase and staggered releases of the routes. It allows them a bit more leeway in terms of development time because ultimately the profits should be higher. Clearly detailing additional branches for the German route would not be achievable within this quarter and thus the decision was made to scrap them while still attempting to make the rest of that route and the other ones be of high quality.

    Of course none of this would matter if the quality of the routes was subpar and only time will tell if that's the case, but I do think it's a bit rash to throw so much hate at the company. They are definitely trying harder to be more clear with the community and while it seems they are still sometimes too ambitious for their own good, they have (mostly) taken the time to try and rationalise these choices and explain them to us which is more than can be said for some devs. I will say the fact that a route was shortened did need to be made much more obvious in their last post though and in future they really need to not overpromise when trying to ship products. I also entirely acknowledge that this is all speculation on my part but it does just seem odd to be so up in arms about everything without really taking the time to think about why these sort of decisions might be made. Just my two pennies worth, feel free to let me know if you think I'm wrong.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2021
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  18. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Or he knows that if he was on stream the chat would be filled with questions and complaints from dissapointed TSW players.
     
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  19. Train Sim 9723

    Train Sim 9723 Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think anyone has been asking for more, just what has been announced
     
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  20. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    DTG have said many times that covid hasn't hampered development of new tsw2 content though
     
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  21. acro

    acro Member

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    Like I said, they clearly overestimated their workload. My main point was that they probably cannot deliver what they were originally promising in a timely manner.
     
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  22. pauldseath

    pauldseath New Member

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    That is true. My mistake
     
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  23. Ps4Player

    Ps4Player Well-Known Member

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    Okay, but it's not their first route, so there should be a better and more realistic planing process. If not, they shouldn't announce something they are not capable to achieve.
     
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  24. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    This has been somewhat of a recurring patten though. Things like the editor and multiplayer to name a few. Had the branch lines hadn't been even announced, there wouldn't be any backlash. The streams made it seem as if they were coming and also they hid the fact that the branch lines were not included in the released article which is understandable as to why people are annoyed. All to often dtg keep telling players to manage expectations yet they keep saying we want to do this or this will happen but then under delivering again and again and I think it's starting to get some annoyed. DTG really needs to manage what can and can't be done. This is not dtg's first rodeo in this so they should know what is achieveable and isn't doable. There should be a realistic planning process and if they can't do something, don't announce it as if it can be done
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2021
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  25. acro

    acro Member

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    I 100% agree, my post is more so aimed at people who seem to believe that this has all been done on a whim or as some sort of way of actively trying to scam people. I do not believe there is malicious intent behind issues like this, just incompetence.
     
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  26. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    We do know it has some effect though; They aren't able to go out and get sounds and stuff.
     
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  27. acro

    acro Member

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    I think there is also a likeliness that COVID has impacted development more than they themselves may have realised. Even if the same amount of staff has been working, coordinating things on such a large scale online is going to be harder especially if you're used to working in an office environment.
     
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  28. thomastl59374

    thomastl59374 Well-Known Member

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    I hadn't especially been excited about Dresden to Riesa but after reading comments, from people who know what the route willd include such as the different branch lines, I am dissapointed that the content is being reduced. I'd rather wait longer for DTG to fulfill their promise and fully complete the route then have the route released on the promised release date with multiple bugs, incorrect rolling stock amd reduced track. The one thing that initially put me off buying TSW back in 2018 was when I saw videos of GWE and how it feels like a short straight route. I do envy TS players who get so much more, for example the TS of SEHS has the Sheerness branch as an addon and there is a Chatam Main line route which links with SEHS at Rochester. I know that TSW2 hasn't got the tech to stitch routes together but it would be nice if more track was given in the release. I really hope DTG carefully consider this choice and change their minds.
    However, I hope I heard this correctly on the recent roadmap stream, that in the preservation crew's update on WSR they are populating the railway with random bits of rolling stock. If this is the case it is a step in the right direction for adding more realism into TSW2 and getting rid of the emptiness. I was playing SKA the other day and I noticed that in scenarios, many of the sidings and depots are populated whereas in service mode, they're empty. I hope that in the rush hour routes, the main development team have considered populating more of the sidings and depots. Even with todays announcement I'm still looking forward to playing the routes and experiencing the new updates.
     
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  29. JazzyGeofferz

    JazzyGeofferz Member

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    If what they're announcing tomorrow won't affect us I wonder whether TSW2 is coming to Gamepass.
     
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  30. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    I also was made aware via the TSC Discord of this;

    "Rush Hour Deluxe":
    Rush Hour
    & TSW2.

    I suppose that explains why SKA & BKL are getting new passenger systems now then...

    And I think this is tommorow's announcement
    (This is from the FAQ)
     
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  31. saltychipz#3569

    saltychipz#3569 Well-Known Member

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    It’s being announced tomorrow
     
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  32. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    And how are you certain it's gamepass?
     
  33. heyitspopcorn

    heyitspopcorn Well-Known Member

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    1) Why not announce these changes closer to when the decisions were made, instead of hiding it behind an “announcement” and promotional marketing post that don’t explicitly state the changes that have occurred? I think if DTG had been a little more upfront about “this was our goal, and unfortunately it just isn’t possible to accomplish at this stage,” the community might have been somewhat more forgiving.

    2) If the issue was cost of development time (ie more dev time was needed than had been budgeted for), why not just make the season ticket the price of two routes? No, it’s not as good as the original three for £25/$30, but getting a third really good route thrown in for free with two other really good routes would still seem to be a pretty good deal. Although, again, it would require more upfront honesty when that decision was made: “we are increasing the price to allow for extra development time.”

    (Instead of what you wrote, which implies “we’ve increased the price because it’s being rebranded as a ‘season pass.’” rather than because it allows for more dev time. If the dev time really required more than $30/£25 could feasibly afford, why was that price point chosen to begin with?)
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2021
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  34. saltychipz#3569

    saltychipz#3569 Well-Known Member

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    What I meant was ‘the announcement is being made tomorrow’
     
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  35. SLBM

    SLBM Active Member

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    It's already annouced, kind of, in the updated FAQ. It's going to cost £44.99 / €49.99 / $49.99.
     
  36. saltychipz#3569

    saltychipz#3569 Well-Known Member

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    What other route is included ?
     
  37. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    Screenshot_20210721_210038.jpg
     
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  38. SLBM

    SLBM Active Member

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    As per FAQ:

    Believe or don't at your own risk ;)
     
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  39. Ost-Trieb

    Ost-Trieb Member

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    Of course, the decision is annoying for one or the other, but let's be honest: "Who cares?"

    If DTG decides that, that's the way it is. It is everyone's right to think that's bad, but not so people.

    Anyone who has ever been to work can understand such a decision. If project X is supposed to be finished by time X, but you are in default due to event X,

    then there's just a partial delivery or, in the worst case, a delivery delay that costs a lot of money.

    Sometimes it really seems to me as if a couple of 15 year olds are sitting here at the keyboard without education, understanding and, above all, decency.

    My opinion:

    I prefer a shorter route that is qualitatively better (design, signaling, track construction, sound) than again what had to be finished quickly with various botched construction.


    (Google Translater) :)
     
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  40. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    While I understand what you are saying, and I expect it would be roundly approved by the faculty of Harvard Business School, to my mind short-term thinking like that is extremely short-sighted. Maximizing this quarter's revenue at the expense of customer satisfaction and goodwill is costing long-term profitability.

    Compare, again, Rockstar, which is willing to go years between releases but when they do come out, the revenues are stratospheric. Or Tesla, which was willing to lose money for years while laying the groundwork for becoming a tech behemoth.
     
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  41. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    I think your argument falls a bit flat when the overwhelming consensus is that DTG has made a massive misjudgment here (and it’s not the first time it’s made such a poor decision) based on ‘time’ being a factor. They set their own time after all. DTG does not have to cut Dresden short, it can take more time to do a proper job, but it’s chosen not to do so. We’re hoping this pressure will force a change of decision. If we don’t try, we’ll never know.
     
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  42. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    Short term gain is never good. You have to play the long game if you want to remain in business. And, you shouldn’t keep kicking your customers in the teeth. They’ll eventually run out of them.
     
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  43. bakedpotatos.jm

    bakedpotatos.jm Well-Known Member

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    Now that I've had time to absorb this news and have thought about it, if they wouldn't have said certain things on the streams or put in writing on the FAQ's the price, the fact all 3 routes are going to be day one releases, and the details of the branch lines on the Dresden route. And even discussing on what stock to use for the ICE services on the high speed bypass I wouldn't have been so upset.

    If they just announced the dates and the season ticket and the routes that were included, without details or price previously I wouldn't have felt let down as I wouldn't of had these expectations to begin with.

    Another case of giving too much info before it was set. Are we going to have a 3rd Roadmap reset within a year?

    The issues were narrowed down to too much too soon before and again here we are?

    And other little things that have been said that have been shown not true.

    We don't want to make DLC for DLC ...Diesel Legends?

    We want to make it realistic as possible and not use incorrect stock....HBK Dostos?

    We don't want to introduce season passes ..... Season Ticket? OK but it's not that much different then a season pass in reality.

    So I think it is best not to know than to know incorrect information, so no more reading the articles or watching the streams anymore as I just can't believe anything until it is in my hands.

    And more and more it seems that the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing amongst the staff even. Maybe that has more to do with the pandemic issues that the same level of communication is lost they had previously.
     
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  44. Alex_m30x#7297

    Alex_m30x#7297 Well-Known Member

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    One the one hand I am very much hoping for this as what happened With sehs worked
    However
    We don’t know how long ago they stopped working on the branch lines if it was last week maybe anything more than that I just can’t see it happening sadly
     
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  45. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Well then it should be default success if last year's PresCol one succeeded :D
     
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  46. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    This german route was particularly interesting mainly for its branch lines. Only DTG could transform it in the usual boring A to B german route in order to fulfill their impossible deadlines.

    And this paired with an increase in price.

    Shameful.
     
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  47. hoagy

    hoagy Member

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    Lolz, get a grip!
     
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  48. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    The price is OK for me, but I don't like the fact that you change the concept all the time, DTG. BR o7
    PS TSW3, some bundle, season pass, preserved-hybrid... What is it? enjoy
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2021
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  49. hyperlord

    hyperlord Well-Known Member

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    Was the 363 removed, too?
     
  50. Alex_m30x#7297

    Alex_m30x#7297 Well-Known Member

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    Not yet but no mention of ice
     
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