Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG Natster, Oct 19, 2021.
I’m surprised Scenario Planner 2.0 is still in planning.
That would be a great time and reason to introduce the EBuLa. I think that would be one of the best ways to considerably improve immersion on German routes. And with a fixed timetable implementation might also be easier than on TS1.
I leave for a couple months I come back and I see a NS route.
It looks like the distance from Dresden Hbf to Chemnitz Hbf (Assuming those are the endpoints) is 79.73kms, which will make it the longest German route thus far across both TSW1/TSW2.
I think the point he was making is the first roadmap released shortly prior to TSW2 contained 8 routes & 6 locos....now we never see more than a few routes in advance (which is a valid point). This has been vaguely referenced on streams and I think they felt in hindsight revealing that much content was a mistake (seeing as though it took over a year to release the 313 & 187 which were both on that 1st roadmap).
The roadmaps now reflect a more realistic outlook of things that are actively being worked on rather than adding a bunch of things which may take a very long time to release. Whether you like this new approach or not is to your own personal preference.
No that cannot be true. There is a lot of knowledge available. There is a big community that built excellent TS routes. The EMUs and DMUs are created by a professional developer and I think he arranged for licenses.
Also suggested by DTG having no Abellio license, Abellio being a subsidiary of Nederlandse Spoorwegen
Wasn’t there an upgrade for the Peninsula Corridor on the roadmap a few months ago or did I imagine that ?
This is a great photograph! Thanks for posting.
Nice that Eastgermany will be strengthen with the appearance of Chemnitz, Freital, Freiberg and so on in TSW 2.
I got the point, but some of the stuff currently on the roadmap has been there for a VERY long time. No one really benefits from this, so my point is there’s no need for another batch of routes and locomotives we may not see until 2023.
I think that is not going to work. From what I heard they are in big problems and they know they need to fix it or they will not be able to sell DLC anymore. Look at London Commuter. They told yesterday that Next gen is just a fraction of the userbase. This means when they will want to sell an add on for London Commuter they won't be able to as at this moment they can't add another train on PS4 which means only a fraction of their userbase will be able to buy that add on.
The solution they gave for the PS5 DLC problem sounds promising. I'm only afraid of how that will be implemented because I already now think the UI is a mess and that the current UI is already a revamped UI. Maybe the chance to do it right this time.
As they said: if they are not able to sell DLC there is no cashflow. So to sell DLC they will have to make sure they are able to sell it in the first place.
Thanks a lot to Sam, Matt and Natalie for the roadmap stream. We take it for granted that this discussion is on the stream, but it is not. Few companies will be this open about internal affairs and say three years ago this would not have happened, we would not get any information.
From my interest in business I liked watching this and see the struggle.
Overall we should not be to negative. Developing software is a risky business and even experienced developers can be surprised. We also should count our blessings. Over time we got loads of new functionality for TSW2 and we tend to forget that this was new and innovative at some point. In the TSW2 Starters Guide you can find a list I compiled and believe me it is impressive, especially if you compare it with TS.
I would like to give one comment on the content part of the stream. You can see the problems a separate QA team creates, mainly due to communication with the dev teams for the routes. Having a separate preserved collection team is not very helpful as well (though they do a great job). Create route teams that are fully responsible for all routes the create, including upgrading them and bug fixing. I worked with a company where we introduced this policy. Each team worked for about 50% of the working hours on new business functionality, 25% was for maintenance and bug fixing and 25% was reserved for innovation and learning. It would take a serious mind shift. Each team would need its own sound engineer, but the improve knowledge sharing you could have a sound tech lead. In the same way each team would have team members with a focus on quality, but each route should be a responsibility of the team as a whole. Even if people are passionate about their jobs, doing it together increases the fun and helps people to grow fast in developing multiple skills.
The only really disappointing this for me is: no Dutch route announced. I know it can be done, so do it.
i had an update of 548 mb today where i find the notes to this update thx
I'm reading 548 MB download, 9.2 GB on disk. At least DTG are succeeding at compression.
im always happy about updates no matter what lets hope this one fix some issues^^
S-Bahn Dresden full S3 line for TSW2? Wow! Really looking forward towards Dresden - Chemnitz. Which time period this route is set? I would love to have a good length German route with DMU operation and older generation Dostos.
It's a big project, so it needs a long time of planning. This way DTG is trying to bring up features for TSW2 with minimized amount of additional issues, that take long time to fix. Everything must be absolutely clear before release.
In the early days of the roadmap, I distinctly recall Sam saying that new DLC added early to the roadmap would give us an idea for how long this process actually takes to go from idea to published, in real time. I think the idea was to help us better manage expectations, but that didn't work out too well in practice as we're generally a very impatient bunch. Now they've given up on that idea in favour of only adding it to the planning section (or higher) when it's considerably advanced, so it doesn't stay on too long.
Personally, I think it's a shame about the impatience as I'm more of 'It'll come when it comes' type of person, but to each their own.
One specific reason was they’ll try to avoid making add-ons feel “old” before they are even released. Part of me can see what they mean by this, as most of the content having been on the roadmap for a long time now has somehow started to feel less exciting than when it first appeared.
Can definetely second this. I had that really badly with Hamburg - Lübeck, which just didn't feel new to me anymore. That was also due to it being very same-ish content to what we already had though.
How Mandy Roadmaps it stayed in the Roadmap until Release? I Like It more too If they are Put on the Roadmap later. Because now Iam very hyped on the new Route, but the question ist for howlong?
You say that but now the Cornwall route is delayed won't that push back the 313?
Watching the stream last night I would like Sam to comeback more regularly even though I think he held back at times. I think he serves our interests better than anyone else they have.
I was pleased when Matt said they were looking at their Beta and QA teams at wanting to improve them but saying that actions speak louder. And then an update dropped today although the fixes relate to recent DLC so we are no nearer fixing older DLC. It seems we get new DLC then that needs fixing and so the cycle continues.
A release date has already been given for the 313 , and wcl is down to rivet to fix
Not necessarily. As WCL is available for Xbox, albeit not intentionally, and appears to be working OK, this may not be a Rivet problem. I hope, in the circumstances, that more information will be forthcoming from DTG, either in the forum's or on tonight's stream.
I've already written it before;
DTG talked about business in the stream and that is why there were always new routes,
but never really new features because it had to be worthwhile.
Well, let's compare SCS and DTG again:
For an overview and understanding: DTG develops new trains
SCS new skins & addons for goods
This is basically the same
The biggest difference, however, why more people are likely to buy all maps for ETS2 / ATS is because SCS is constantly evolving. I think most of the players who play ETS2 have bought all of the map DLC over time.
At DTG, the concept seems to run completely the other way around, great further developments (Ebula, announcements, MP, tickets, etc.) are still completely missing.
At the time, SCS has; Convoy, double trailer, mod support, weather, sun position etc. developed.
Of course, a company has to see itself as a business, but a complete standstill in further development seems to me to be less successful. I firmly believe that when a team is perm. would bring a further development forward that many more customers would buy a product. And that's the point. DTG chases after the bugs like a mouse hunt and stands in front of it every time and says: Yes, well, we can't do that for now.
Instead of thinking at the same time that you could catch the mice quickly with live traps.
Customers just want to see that the product they are buying will still meet a certain standard in 2021. However, maintenance and further development are also part of the standard for many. The care also works, more or less.
Imagine if SCS had not developed further in the 7 years of development and there would only be a map update twice a year.
That would mean; No double trailers, no modern navigation (voice output etc.), no modding - who would still actively play the game today? And in the private TruckersMp, 1-4 thousand players are out and about every day.
Sure, you can understand the argument from the last stream that you just work in business. However, business also includes a long-term business plan. And that is exactly what DTG lacks completely. This is not about a date, but that DTG has no plans for the future. Every few months you have the feeling that DTG suddenly comes up with something, "Let's bring out a new route", without there being an extended plan as to where the main product is going to go.
SCS does not need this because they have proven over the years that they are working on further development. As with DTG, there is only information about new features and enhancements every few months. In contrast to DTG, however, they have the confidence that if you buy a new map, the basic software will be permanently improved.
Let's take the example of what recently restricted SCS somewhat; the convoy mode. For whatever reason, SCS hadn't thought of the large modding community during development. Instead of, as DTG would do, say yes; Yes, sorry, that might come some day, SCS immediately set up a master plan and communicated it clearly; The dev team will not get any further for now, as the next version will now support modding for the convoy mode. Complete.
At SCS there are no compromises between "Yes, maybe we'll do something about it in a few years", but the greatest need of the community is addressed directly and without detours.
For SCS, of course, this also means that the next version will not bring any outstanding new features, but rather a multiplayer that supports modding.
Incidentally, the development time that SCS needs for renewals is just as long as with DTG, a few months. However, as noted several times, at SCS notices that it is growing really steadily and always very, very well tested and brings new features with it.
In short, I would like DTG to finally make a very clear statement on a very specific plan for the future.
WHERE does the company / business want to go? And no more excuses like "Yes, that's not on the roadmap", for me the whole big plan is missing, which apparently does not even exist. You get the feeling DTG is partly a call center / advertising agency, some company calls, then says, yes, our route is ready, does some advertising for us. And DTG then "Yeah, throw our printing press on. See you then"
I would rather see DTG as a factory that receives input from employees (community, team, etc.), discusses it and then starts working on an elaboration. This elaboration is then published as a long-term 2 year plan, so customers can be sure that it will happen.
Let's take a game console developer: If you had just stopped at the PlayStation1, but the games have evolved, basically nobody would buy it anymore. You can understand DTG that they prefer to make sure that the money comes in, but firmly believe that a company that focuses on innovation is more popular and therefore also has more income. So I would be happy about future plans, and not the excuses "yes, what is not there doesn't matter anyway."
But ETS 2 is way more older than TSW 2 so you can not compare. They had much more time to evolve and with every route TSW 2 is evolving too. Sometimes the small details matter.
ETS2 release date 19th October 2012 (PC)
TSW release date 24th July 2018
TSW2 release date 20th August 2020
TSW has been around for 1/3 of the time that ETS2 has.
Before you can envolve you need something to envolve
If DTG fully dropped TS1 and gave that community a full creation tool kit so they could concentrate solely on TSW2, would that help?
I also think releasing a creation kit for TSW2 would help get DTG out of a lot of problems, Fallout 4 was dying on its arse before the mods came out, now look at it.
I'm not saying that exact model will fir DTG but they are so far behind on the fixes will we ever see fixes for the old stuff?
ICE T or ICE TD would be more fun, because it can also tilt
Hopefully we will get some branches to the route like in rush hour, I don't know anything what this route is like but maybe some branches to some extra areas would be possible and it would be cool
I think this could be the perfect occasion to give the BR 204 some extra Services. Maybe it could pull some cargo waggons.
Not going to happen, because DCH (or DRC, whatever it is.) is probably set in past, while DRA is set in current time period.
This is only the half truth, because already in TS, which appeared on July 3rd, 2009, had neither Ebula nor announcements, not until today.
DTG is not willing to add new features to new products.
That is why the comparison with TSW is not entirely correct, as DTG has been active in the train business as SCS for much longer.
And already in TS versions, DTG has shown that, apart from routes and trains, it is possible with the company / business. Although I have to say clearly, I've been out of TS for definitely 5 years, precisely because it's not about further development, but just making money without delivering anything. Therefore I cannot 100% whether something has changed, but I doubt that it would have completely passed me by, or the community, if far-reaching developments had taken place.
DTG thus had time from 2009 to 2018 to develop and to develop new features on this basis. And that's way more than SCS had. In the development phase, i.e. the business plan, a clear decision was made against new features. In the last stream, the "business" was very much in the foreground.
And I also do not believe that a "role system" will be developed in the coming year 2022 or 2023, although MP / roles have been desired since 2018.
For me personally as a customer, however, the further development of content is a lot higher than having new trains or routes. With this criterion I also decide what to buy and what not to buy.
And believe me, we've already seen dozens of games in and through a beta and it's development. I am very happy to support new projects and give feedback, but when you notice that nothing is happening, and nothing in the business plan, which was so emphasized, says that you would like to develop further in the next 2-3 years ... And such a business plan is designed for a company for 2-3 years.
And I'll write it again, it's not about getting an exact release, but about communicating where you want to go. Whether half a year earlier or later is completely irrelevant.
I have already written very often that I do not think that anything released - revolutionary will happen before 2024/25.
So I'm looking forward to next year, when 23 new tracks will be released as a bundle. It has to be said that the passenger and timetable update, especially at commuter London, was very successful. I love it when you are 4 minutes late and then you have to wait at the red signal because a punctual train will be let through. This is exactly what TSW2 is all about.
Development takes time, that's not the problem. But to speak out in the livestream because of a business, why you haven't developed for 12 years, is a bit strange. They have not only been active in this area since yesterday and still have puppy protection. That used to be. Of course there is a difference between TS and TSW, but the TSW1 has already decided against it and, just like the TS, has continued as before. Lines and trains, that's it. And there must have already been a business plan, and as I said, a company like DTG does not plan for 1 year. The plans go a lot further, and in 2018 it was already clear that TSW2 would not get MP, roles, etc. Developing routes etc. takes months, so nobody can tell that when TSW2 was launched, they didn't know long in advance that they would "not bring anything new". And before it is said again in the stream that routes / trains are new, they are not - they are not. Whether you press "A / D" for the 9000 times is not new. Route creation is hard work, but has nothing to do with "New".
Sure, a company has to earn money, but I firmly believe that a business plan will only work if the company is also able to get involved in new things. No company in the world would survive for years if it still delivered parcels by carriage today.
Another Dresden route But when will the problem that the Dresden Nahverkehr route crashes will be resolved? Unfortunately, the route is currently unplayable.
Looks familiar! Is it built by Bombardier?
It is, indeed.
Like pretty much every other vehicle we have for the German routes and some of the UK Seems to be easiest to get the licenses needed.
Sorry, very late to this, it was an excellent stream thanks. I'm a happy PC player, with no issues, just transferring over from TSW to TSW2.
Just wanted to say that I feel for you with the UE upgrade negating all of the excellent memory optimisations done.
It feels to me like there's too many conveyor belts - UE upgrades - bugfixing the UE upgrades - the Steam/Microsoft/Sony/Epic release procedure. Which sounds horrible for all involved.
It sounds like UEs memory utilisation is somewhat bugged. Why are they even attempting to manage memory - it's a function of the OS surely ? Is there a dummies guide that I can watch ?
Why aren't the majority of UE upgrades backwards compatible ?
Because I haven't had any issues, I haven't really followed the bugs on other platforms, but it does sound the QA & Beta testing failed, so completely agree with the focus on that. Like I suggested, the large numbers of end users will be the best testers, so release stuff as Beta, and use as an opportunity to cultivate engagement ? It would need a serious support structure.
Don't worry, I expect somebody will make a mod so you can have it without having to log in
I do think that DTG bit off more than it could chew trying to do the UE4.26 upgrade and the Rush Hour release all at one time. Would have been far more sensible to roll out the UE update, sort the bugs and problems (including the PS5-specific problems caused by Sony), and only then release the RH routes.
100%. A few of us saw there was going to be problems but DTG ploughed on as usual.
Why no update today?
I was thinking the same thing. I think DTG like to do a Roadmap every two weeks but you would of thought with all the bugs, errors and delays it would warrant a Roadmap every week untill they clear the back log.
Maybe it’ll come with the 313
It seems they aren't following the Tuesday update routine they had anymore. Now it's the day before release which you know makes perfect sense so if the update causes a major bug now they don't have any time to fix it before the DLC release.
Why would they need that extra day buffer since they don't release any updates with bugs. Like the speedometer disappearing on Boston Commuter.
Even if the update was released on a Tuesday, there would essentially be only one working day to try and resolve it before the DLC release. Honestly, it won't really make any difference in practice. Even if they could figure the problem out in one day, the fix would still have to go through beta testing and QA.
Separate names with a comma.