Train Sim World 2: Rush Hour - Creating Immersion

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG Natster, Jul 20, 2021.

  1. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Also the ability to adjust the font on the hud would be nice since dtg seem to not get it right
     
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  2. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Can't your community team not just gather the questions we ask in this topic? There's plenty of interesting discussion going in here. Why do we need to repost our questions? Why doesn't that topic even exist yet?
     
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  3. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    TS Classic's HUD might take lots of space, but at least it warrants that a bit considering how much info it has. TSW's HUD while a tad less intrusive feels to me like it has more wasted space, largely thanks to that utterly stupid racing game speedometer. If you're gonna have a intrusive HUD at least make it as useful as possible, and if we're really gonna trash the HUD for immersion's sake then it should be way more minimalist than what TSW has. For heaven's sake, Breath of the Wild, which is a fantasy game, has a way less intrusive HUD than TSW, that says something.
     
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  4. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I feel like changes are made before the player has even seen them, resulting in controversial opinions such as seen today, when the article was released.

    Why not post a few prototypes and/or ask the community what we want first, instead of making changes first and then asking the players after, to which it is too late to make changes until the next annual update?

    Too many times things are changed without asking the community what they want first.
     
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  5. Arpadiam

    Arpadiam Member

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    DTG if you want to please your niche playerbase please start to listen on regard about immersion because so far you are doing the total opposite of it
     
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  6. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I've read through the article two or three times and I really don't see much of interest for PC players like myself. If there are things here which improve gameplay for consoles fair enough. I'll take a look at the new pause menu, but I doubt I'll refer to it very often. I'd rather they'd spent the time and effort improving the 2d map instead. That's where information is most lacking in my opinion. I don't recall many suggestions in the forum for an improved pause screen, but I do think improvements to the 2d map have been requested quite regularly.
    I sometimes wonder if anyone out there is really listening.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2021
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  7. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Track IR support
     
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  8. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    The pause screen as it is is already fine. I haven't seen a suggestion for improvements to the pause screen either. A improved 2d map has been suggested many times as all it shows is a line with trains on it and I am sure a ts2021 style 2d map would be a nice edition tbh.

    DTG are listening I believe but there is always a technical hurdle they gotta deal with before improvements can come it seems
     
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  9. 59321747

    59321747 Active Member

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    The most urgent problem is the authenticity and length of the route scenery. The immersion depends on the reality. Not the camera
     
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  10. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    I disagree that TS Classic HUD takes lots of space. At least not the smaller version (can't remember if it was the F3 key or the F4 key to bring up the smaller version). TS Classic HUD was all located at the bottom of the screen, and opacity could be changed based upon your desires.

    TSW HUD however is spread over all corners of the screen, is at least 2cm off the edge of the screen, and elements and fonts are HUGE. While that latter one might be good for console players, the game really lacks some options for PC players to make things even smaller and more compact, so there's more screen left to enjoy the beautiful train interiors and lovely scenery. "Immersion" is it called, isn't it?
     
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  11. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Track IR support is nice for those of us who have the hardware. For the rest of us, it doesn't really add anything.
     
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  12. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I believe the feedback from the play testing was that people tended to watch the timeline rather than the scenery. Almost no point having speed boards etc when it's all on a map at the bottom sort of thing

    And no, it's not immersion to have ANY indications on screen. Immersion would be a system where someone has to learn to drive the route with no HUD at all, but they dismissed that as an idea years ago
     
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  13. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    I understand that part of the logic, but considering HUD already gives you information about signals, speedlimits and current gradient, why make an exception for gradient profile?

    Driving without HUD, that requires route learning, is already possible by disabling HUD elements. A nice feature for those of us who want. In my experience, relying on trackside signage isn't always an option. While speed limit signs in the UK and Germany are relatively easy to spot, in the US they can be pretty small or totally abscent. And so far the Arosa Line is the only route I've found the trackside gradient signs to be useful.

    The HUD is there to replace route knownledge, to simplify the job, as a real train engine would require quite a bit of training to learn the route. Gradient profiles are part of the route knownledge, just like the location of speed limits, signals and stations. This information should belong in the HUD (with the option to disable it, for those who want to, of course).

    As someone already said; nothing breaks immersion more than having to pause the game.
     
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  14. jeremydunn8

    jeremydunn8 Well-Known Member

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    Finally we get external zoom on consoles. Not much else interests me though since I usually use the keyboard, and I’d also much rather see mouse support than any of these controller improvements.
     
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  15. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    The F3 HUD I think is fine, vastly prefer it to the one in TSW, but it's hard to say it isn't big. I bring up Breath of the Wild again, or even other Nintendo games like Mario Odyssey, or even the Zelda remasters, like Skyward Sword HD When Nintendo moved over to full HD they took full advantage of that by making the HUD take up much less space, and in general the HUD is minimalist in pretty much all new Nintendo games. The HUD in TS Classic feels much more like the HUDs you'd see with the original Twilight Princess or Skyward Sword, which took up a crazy amount of screen space, as displays were lower resolution and the screen themselves were often smaller. HUDs in quite a few more modern HD games are much less intrusive than the HUD for either train sim.
    The funny thing is TSW got rid of one of the big reasons to keep on eye on the track. In TS Classic you can't just pay attention to the HUD for one solid reason, the signals, the HUD tells you how far out they are, but they don't tell you what indication they're at. Thus you always have to keep a eye on either in-cab signaling or the signals themselves. TSW on the other hand always tells you the next signal indication, thus removing that one reason to really keep a eye on the tracks. So TSW actually encourages HUD only behavior more than TS Classic because of that.
     
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  16. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Both TS and TSW HUDs have downsides when it comes to signalling, especially for German routes.

    TS HUD didn't display the location of distant signals, meaning you still needed to pay attention to the tracks in order not to be surprised by a sudden speed restriction or red signal.

    TSW HUD only displays Red/Yellow/Green signal aspects, and it treats any speed restriction as a yellow. Meaning that you'd still be better off relying on distant signals on German routes. It's for this reason I've disabled the signal HUD element because it was causing me more confusion that it actually helped me.

    Another slightly related thing is that TS had AWS on by default, while TSW has it disabled by default. AWS is one of those simple systems that I actually consider making it easier. It's next to impossible to miss a signal or speed sign with AWS enabled, and the safety system is considerably easier to use than its German counterpart (PZB). While PZB makes life harder, I think AWS makes life easier. :P
     
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  17. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Well, kind of. One thing TSC does have (that you can turn on in TSW but is generally turned off...)
    Ping.... ping..... ping.........
    So if you have speakers on you can ignore everything until the honk
     
  18. WVUadam

    WVUadam Well-Known Member

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    It's good that can learn more about the gradients. So before you start a service could have a look at them.
    But for Immersive features surely you would add more gameplay features within train cabs and improve playing as a passenger.

    The button controls is a good one though.
     
  19. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    I am wondering, on most locos, there are unused screens that are just black at the moment. I know, this would not be authentic, but maybe all this information from the pause menu could be somehow implemented into those screens, that would certainly be much more immersive :) Similar to what was done with adding a radio in the cab to contact the signaller for the WSR locos (which could also be implemented for most trains without any additional artwork) :)
     
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  20. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    The scenario I'm suggesting is literally never looking outside of the cab, yes you could ignore the outside world in TS Classic for considerable periods of time sure. But that still means you have to look out every time the alerter tells you to. AWS activating doesn't tell you what exactly the signal means, it's just telling you that it's coming up and you should pay attention. A alert from AWS could mean a speed change, or that you're approaching a caution/red, or that's you're changing tracks. Also lets say that you stop at a red signal, AWS never tells you when it changes, if you never look out the cab you'll never know when it's changed. There's enough ambiguity with AWS and the info TS gives you that you pretty much have to look out the window and see what's coming up. And that's not getting into the fact that not every engine has AWS, you can't rely on AWS for American stock for example, only a handful of US routes, mainly the New York based routes have anything beyond the basic alerter, so you have to be more vigilant in those routes no matter what you do.

    TSW's HUD showing the next signal makes it far easier to only rely on the HUD then it ever was in TS Classic, because it removes tons of ambiguity that exists from TS Classic lacking it. I'm fully confidence I could complete a Class 166 service on the GWR in TSW by just pointing the cab camera at the floor and relying solely on the HUD. Not saying I would get a gold metal or anything like that, but I could at least complete it. It would be much harder to that in many TS Classic routes and locos, Ultimately my point is this, if DTG's goal was to make sure that you couldn't rely on TSW's HUD to the extent that you could in TS Classic, then they've utterly failed. If their goal is to truly do that, they need to cut back the HUD way more, the lack of a gradient profile does very little to solve that problem.
     
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  21. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I never really understood the point by matt of if a ts2021 style hud was in tsw2 then players would only play with the hud because isn't that what some players already do in tsw2?

    As a person who does play ts2021 the hud in that game offers similar information than in tsw2 frankly but it's displayed differently. In ts2021 it shows when you will arrive at the next signal, but it doesn't show if the upcoming signal will be green yellow or red so technically you would still have to look ahead to see what the upcoming light would be. While yes modern u.k trains have aws in ts2021, it doesn't tell you that the next signal is red so you still have to look ahead to find what the next signal will be so you can't fully get away with only playing the game in the hud. Yes routes like the New Haven Line or Hudson Line with the MTA Metro North M7A and M8 have in cab signaling which will tell you what the signal speed is and if you have to stop, alot of other trains don't have that feature so you can't fully play the game with the hud. In some situations you can but not always.

    TSW2's hud on the other hand shows what the upcoming signal will be (green, yellow, red) so you can rely more on tsw2s hud than in ts2021 so you can get away with relying on the hud more in tsw2 than in ts2021. If they were trying to get players to rely less on the HUD, then frankly they did the opposite. You can use the hud to know how far the next signal, speed change and station is without having to look at the track so you could for example do a service with the 395 whilst having the camera looking down on the floor and just look at the hud.

    Whilst yes in real life train drivers would not have hud's and have to learn the route they drive on as mentioned by some here, the average joe who would play this game wouldn't want to do that. The average joe would still have the hud on and wouldn't want to memorize where every signal is and every speed change or gradient change will be so putting important info in a pause menu seems a step backwards on trying to create "immersion" so I think a good solution would be to allow players to customize the hud and allow players to adjust how large or small they want certain elements of the hud like other games do. It's a win win for both sides
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2021
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  22. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    In terms of customisation, there's an option to disable sight of the aspects, so that it just shows the distance to the signal.
     
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  23. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    Precisely as I pointed out in the post I referenced in my OP.
     
  24. Matthew Wilson

    Matthew Wilson Active Member

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    Hi. I hope it isn't telling that you say "you are being heard" - which is different to being listened to.

    As many on here may not know, I'm a very active community member on TS content, filling in gaps or sometimes chasms left by many developers of content.

    The annexation of the community for the access to console ecosystems is unforgivable and leaves way more compromises (for the users) than benefits.

    I purchased TSW2 as Bakerloo excited me as a prospect. 10 mins after install and seeing an empty WCML route with GWML over head line equipment did for all of my remaining excitement. And since that moment I haven't once booted it up or considered any of the DLC added.

    Who knows, this approach may have been financially rewarding to DTG, but it's taken the soul out of using what came as a great graphical upgrade of TS1. Still after all of this time on the visual side you haven't made simple mods like enabling NVidia Ansel.

    So, TSW shall remain a toy that looks great if you leave it boxed and untouched like a collectors item.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2021
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  25. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    They keep describing TSW like 'a digital model railroad collection', but until now I never realised it was just supposed to be a static display in the corner of a home office, instead of a moving and engaging collection of all that a railroad fan loves.
     
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  26. Matthew Wilson

    Matthew Wilson Active Member

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    I always liked that it was far easier in TS1 to create stuff than model railways/railroads. TSW Livery Editor is easier, to use, but it's harder to achieve a lot of things - the kit of parts is mostly random and you have an enormous choice of one single font. I can't imagine how a model railway equivalent of that scenario would play out.
     
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  27. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    And that's great, options are great, in all honesty I have no problem with having the option to make the HUD as powerful as you want. But if your crew removed the gradient profile because they didn't want people relying on the HUD so often, then why even have the option to show the signal aspect and distance when it that encourages that behavior? The option to have the next signal aspect goes against that reasoning, as it also encourages you to pay less attention to the tracks too after all. Either leave it to the player to decide what HUD elements they want, and add in the option for the gradient profile. Or the HUD for TSW should be stripped back considerably more to truly encourage players to pay attention to the trackside.
     
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  28. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Those features on the current hud do the opposite of what apparently was intended hence why I too raised an eyebrow
     
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  29. Dominik Tuchowicz

    Dominik Tuchowicz Member

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    Immersion would be real life traffic, dynamic signalling, train ahead and a Rush Hour.
     
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  30. mike.duncan

    mike.duncan Member

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    Truly this is the most immersive update I have ever seen for a game. Since it has been entirely bricked on my PS4, all of the sights and sounds seem true to life... since that is where I am stuck hanging out with my cat since you people are incapable of properly testing an update before rolling it out. So let it be said, smoothest Dovetail Games rollout ever.
     
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  31. keith_gilham

    keith_gilham Member

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    Yes so immersive that I feel I’ve been pick pocketed and had my money stolen…. I wonder why that is??? PS4 still not fixed then…
     
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  32. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Where do we add questions for this Tuesday's roadmap? Here?
     
  33. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    On the thread that goes up in the Dovetail live section on Tuesday for the roadmap.
     
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  34. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I wonder why they leave it to the day of the stream before putting in a thread to leave questions? Many people cannot watch the stream and would love to leave a question. Surely a couple of days would not hurt, would it DTG?
     
  35. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    Because they barely reply to the questions anyway, yesterday again was mainly questions from the chat that got answered.
     
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