Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG Jamie, May 10, 2022.
Also if it was done too far into the 60s the line would have been electrified.
The thing is we do not know what DTG are working on, as to what they haven't announced and at what stage it is?
All I see in these threads are over bloated assumptions of what would have, should have & could have .
If they had included diesels, those who like modern routes would still have been complaining. And I still don't see that the inclusion of an 08 would have diesel fans salivating and hitting the purchase button. Electric services began in 1962, therefore if they had pushed the time further forward it would have been electric loco's and units which would have needed to be included rather than diesels so much.
Ideally over time there will be a spread of routes across all eras, this is the earliest dated route so far, something some of us have been waiting for for five years.
I don't for a moment believe it will be Christmas before we see another more modern route, I am sure it will be far sooner than that. I suspect they are likely already planning one at the moment at least.
It will appear If you have Xbox games pass subscription after release.
I can't see this being anymore than a arcade train game. I mean I cannot think of any sort of way this will be challenging when everything practically appears automated and knowing DTG, they will be testing a manual fireman for 5 years + until somebody in the preservation crew "take a look at it". I mean why even have all the signals on this route when there's barely any services/AI on the route to even test you, it's being overhyped and you will be disappointed.
It's just another shoddy joke, judging from the simple use of the brake and the regulator and continuous safety valve operation. TSC has a very good simulation method, especially using the Jinty on WLoS for example...
With the greatest respect I think DTG need to be given a chance for this route as I can see it being the turning point and that they do seriously want to get it right.
However I do see where the concern is coming from as it does look a bit empty at the minute but this is so the route can be more accurate for the locos it currently has which surely is a good thing. Fingers crossed some DLC for Liverpool Crewe will come along later to further enhance the route.
People seem to forget that this is the first time they have dealt with steam locos in the game and it has been a long time in the making.
You are obviously entitled to your opinion, likewise I am entitled to mine so I am not saying you or anyone else is wrong but just showcasing my more optimistic view on the route.
I respect your reply and I hope that you are right about it. (Still want more Services and AI though).
OK, I see the prices differ. On Steam I got for 29,99 € That’s about 33 $. In SEK 315. (Sweden) Of course, if you have many DLC:s it’s a bit of money. That’s why I skipped the latest US freight routes and the Swiss one to save for Steam. I have barely used Clinchfield and Oakville the latter on a sale). I almost never use CSX. I tend to run German and British routes. And NEC, The DB 442 is very similar to the Swedish X62 seen in my signature picture. Guess which country the Swedish T-66 comes from. Clue: it’s a diesel.
The DB 442 is similar to the X60, X61 and the X62
Actually I would be miffed if I was forced to be fireman as well as driver. This would not bear any resemblance to real life. I suppose the obvious solution would be to give players the option. But to do this you would need three options, Driver, fireman or both. Not sure how this would be implemented if, indeed, it was even possible in the current game.
Personally though, I’m more interested in the route so will mainly probably use Off The Rails mode to run non steam trains.
The idea of including a Gronk was to get people who are not into steam giving it a go and if they did not like it they still had the Gronk to muck about with. Surely selling more copies of the DLC is better than selling less no? And the Gronk did exist at this time albeit in Black but would that be so hard to do? Give it to Cat, she could do it.
People seem to want a 'steam only' route, great fill your boots. I saw some of the stream, it look good in parts but barren in others and I hope it is a success for those that want it but from what I saw there is nowt in there for me which is shame.
Thats true, it seems to be a clever marketing move. Even the ones not interessted in steam are buying sos, either because the premiere or because its the only route announced now.
So if we would already know the scope of the new german or us route, some people might skip spirit of steam.
This would mean we could get a bunch of announcements after the sos release. The roadmap is literally empty of new stuff anyway.
The 08s currently in game would need more doing than just a livery as they have got all of the 80s equipment in them which wouldn't be there in the 50s.
My own view is that they would have been better to choose a non electrified main line in the mid 60s so you could run steam and the existing diesels together.
GCR or Midland mainline would have been perfect. Even a steam DLC for the TransPennine would have been okay.
This is clearly unfinished and btw railways in Britain had to be fully fenced off from the dawn of the railways since the 1840s. What was said on the feed was wrong - either they are ignorant of basic railway history and operations or they are trying to mislead.
This route could be good but it still needs a massive amount of work on scenery, rail sound and yard textures.
I’m only just watching last night’s stream (it clashed with Chesterfield FC on the telly!) I was disappointed to note during the scenario that, once again, I am expected to tear my hair out trying to work out what switches I need to set in the yards.
Surely, in real life, the driver would not be expected to get out of his cab and move each switch in turn. This isn’t the case in many foreign routes (e.g. German) that have automatic switching. I appreciate that in the UK, there are manual switches but the driver would not be expected to operate them.
I appreciate that other people love the shunting manoeuvres. However, if they can have manual/automatic fireman options, how about the same for switches for the likes of me who dread these shunting scenarios (which I need to complete at least once to obtain the achievement).
You can change the points on the map. Annoyingly they don't change immediately as time is paused in map mode so you need to change them, go back to the game, wait a second for them to swing across and then go back to the map to make sure they're now correct.
Open the map via the  key, not the pause menu, and the changes happen in real time.
In reality you would have a shunter walking ahead of the train to set the points ahead of it. At certain locations you might even have a ground frame which again would be operated by a shunter or possibly the guard. It would be relatively rare to have the driver act as the route setting agent themselves. The top down "9" is the best means but even then sometimes the lie of the points isn't obvious or if you have complex three way points or slips involved.
There has been a new thing recently with scenario makers where they make the driver get out and walk to a waypoint in order to change the points and there is no option to do it from the map. I hope that doesn’t continue because it takes away the choice of how you want to interact with the game. I don’t know if they have used that new approach in this route though.
It still works from the map.
In WCL scenarios you still have to through the markers and operate the points even if you already set them from the map.
Either you haven’t played any of these scenarios or you misunderstand the reasoning of my post. You have no choice to stay sitting in the train and only change the points from the map or with an external camera, you have to walk to the points whatever way you change the points in order to trigger the next instruction.
Yes you cannot trigger the interactive point from the 8 or 9 view, have to physically leave the driver's chair and walk to it.
So DTG are incapable of doing that?
You think so? They went to great lengths within the London-Brighton route no?
All things considered, I think the loco artists have already put more effort into this route than any other in the history of TSW, I can see why sticking yet more on their plates for release might not be favourable
Thought I would throw in my 2p
So what would I like different? My personal opinion on this is utilising both locos on a mixture of services. Perhaps the following would digest this:
Jubilee on Mixed traffic services
8f on local services
Double heading? (8f's freight, Jubilee's on express)
8f shunting in yard or Light engine movements to a siding & back
Jubilee on freight substitutes
I personally had it under the impression that DTG may offer for us to utilise either locomotive on the local services, so you could pick and choose etc, sadly that is not the case.
Just to clarify, this is using the DLC we have already been promised and I do not see this being too uncommon or prototypical for that era..
Budget or vision. DTG is capable of making a Gronk (we have 3 different versions in the game), so the choice not to include it comes down to not wanting to put in the resources to add it to the timetable or it not fitting with the vision.
This DLC is likely one of DTG's most expensive productions to date, barring the original Sandpatch. It has certainly had more man hours put into it than L2B.
What does London-Brighton have to do with it? Brighton used one recycled 377 and one slight mod of it as the 387. That's very different from building two steam locomotives from scratch, and then heavily modding an existing loco as well.
I think we have to be patient with regards to traffic and extra locos. Obviously they didn't want to add diesels to a steam route (which is fair enough imo) and Personally I would prefer realism with regards to services although I can understand why you wouldn't. As long as they do release more and fill the route it will be worth it in the long run but we have to be patient and I think thats why they chose a big route like this so they could fill it progressively!
The only thing is the missing rail joint sounds, I don't get how they could miss that its such a massive part of the experience of steam! Hopefully they can sort it out though
I was going by Matt by him saying they spent a lot of man hours getting the route to work and isn't it supposed to be one of the busiest in TSW2 whereas SOS has to be one of the most sparse routes no?
Well thanks for that, you can understand why I wouldn't want 'realism'. You do realise the Gronk was actually a part of that route in that same ERA, so you could say it is unrealistic to leave it out but then I can understand why you like unrealism, lol. Didn't Matt say no DLC is planned, I was half asleep when I watched the steam so could be wrong on that and is this route 'BIG'.
I agree with you on the missing rail joint sounds. It will sound weird in the carriages but when Matt says 'they are looking into it but can't give any promises on a fix' I would be very sceptical if a fix comes at all. DTG once again are struggling with the sound they struggle with the sound on youtube streams let alone ingame sounds. I wonder if we would get better sound if DTG outsourced to someone like AP if they were interested?
AP already have provided DTG with the recordings, and have done in the past.
99% of the issues come down to not setting the sounds up properly (or at all for that matter). There’s also the issue of TSW’s inferior sound engine vs TSC. TSC can handle 128 sounds simultaneously whereas TSW can only handle a measly 32 sounds at any one time. That’s why you often get sounds cutting out and/or not playing in TSW.
It’s quite concerning how there’s been no long term plan to improve the sound engine within TSW.
Are you conflating the service density of a route with the amount of man hours put into a DLC? That is extremely misguided, especially in this context.
DTG does already outsource sounds. Most of their recent releases have outsourced sounds in some way from third parties. Besides, it's a non-sequitur because the issue is to do with tooling, not audio recording or mixing. Outsourcing more sounds from AP is not going to fix the problem.
I thought AP would do a better job at mixing the sounds if they were willing. I have no clue in coding but would it be possible to implement a new sound engine or is too late?
I'm pretty sure the sound engine is all tied to Unreal
I was referring to mixing the sounds as well as clearly DTG are struggling but then I remember Matt saying something about the 'Tools' as well.
Is it? Some unreal games sound awesome but TSW2 doesn't. I haven't a clue tbh but if that is the case the UE doesn't sound much cop, eh?
No, you misunderstand entirely. Creating the timetable is only a part of the development process of a DLC. With respect to Spirit of Steam, the time and money spent developing new steam simulation, particle effects, performance optimisations, and gathering the historic data necessary to recreate an era sparse of photographs absolutely dwarfs the time spent developing a timetable. We know that SoS has been in active development for over a year. That is a lot of labour, no matter which way you slice it. Developing a timetable contributes to the overall time and money spent creating a DLC, but it is merely one facet of development and therefore farcical to suggest a direct proportionality.
So basically a release date should not have been issued yet until thorough inspections have been made. If you've already utilised the labour to make it your best DLC, it should not be released unfinished.
Plus, it's been almost 2 years as this was announced around the time of TSW2 being released.
I think some other UE4 games use an additional add-on for audio called FMOD. I'm not sure how it works however I believe DTG just uses the standard UE4 offering, and not FMOD.
Thanks for the info! That makes it even more interesting.
The to-do list of fixes and not ready yet features appears to be really long. I hope this time we will see true work in progress happening after May 31st. This project is a new chapter. Prelude of glory or epilog called disappointment? Time will tell. It promises to be extremely interesting.
I do get a bit fed up with all the negative comments on here,
after all it's a game, if you want 100% realism get a job on the railway
or volunteer on a heritage line.
No-one is asking for 100% realism, and I very much doubt anyone expects 100% realism.
About 70% would be nice though!
Exactly. What we want is for the basics to work… Fully functional track sound over nodding cows (or donkeys). AI firing that is at least as effective as that enjoyed by 21 year old MSTS. This isn’t some hobby sim being assembled by someone in their back room, it’s a large software house with a multi £million annual turnover. They should be doing better…
Though I do agree that AI firing needs to be better (the safety valves are a major problem for me), I think the recurrance of the MSTS argument is interesting though.
Compared to MSTS TSW is obviously the superior game. Yet some (including me) felt more immersed in that at times than in TSW now. I don't know if perhaps we lost our imagination (I have changed from a kid to an adult in the meantime after all), or have come to expect too much, or perhaps, we've reached the 'uncanny valley'.
There is certainly something to say for all of these explainations. Back in MSTS days I just had the gamey father downloaded for me and a ton of imagination. I had very little in the way of expectations and everything was novel to me. I didn't follow gaming developement at all and wasn't thinking of what I'd want to see for the money that I pay for something. I think that makes a big difference in my experience now compared to then.
Then there's the uncanny valley, a term I first heard coined talking about robots. It's a place where robots look human and familiar enough to be scary, but not yet human and familiar enough to be comforting. It's a place where the scary robots from Sci-Fi come from. Translating this to simulation, I do think we've reached a very, very far point. Things look, sound and feel good enough for us to feel like absolute realism is within reach and therefore should be expected. Comparing this to MSTS, I just felt like it was a game or simulator at best. I didn't feel like realism was within reach, I just yearned for this slight familiarity that was within reach.
Overall it's just an interesting pattern that I'm trying to explain.
Surely asking for track join sounds is not to much to ask is it? How much realism, seeing how TSW2 is supposed to be a sim, is acceptable then?
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