Train Sim World 2 - Stupendous Sherman

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG Natster, Nov 18, 2021.

  1. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I guarantee you would be more disappointed driving with 5 fps for two hours if they did have 100 wagons.
     
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  2. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    It's almost as old gen consoles are called old gen consoles for a reason!
     
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  3. Zander34

    Zander34 New Member

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    will the xbox s be able to handle the 100 car trains?
     
  4. JealousSheep768

    JealousSheep768 Well-Known Member

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    Series or one
     
  5. grdaniel48

    grdaniel48 Well-Known Member

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    I liked the route and trains very much!
    As to sounds, despite they are not the real ones, due to special Covid situation,- so no chance to record them - , what DTG did it is nice.
    Only sounds that it will require an increase on volume, it is the horn one, when you open the cabin windows.
    Despite I never been on the SD70ACE cab, as the usual very high volumes horns of USA trains, that not must be that way
    That is the only sound that really disappointing.

    Another thing I noticed on roads crossing the tracks.
    Most of them does not have any sign for vehicles!
    Matt mentioned this was no the final build, so hopes this be fixed, as the speed limits issue too.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2021
  6. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    So, I'm wondering if the yards will be usable for Scenerio Planner and how many tracks will be available, since it should be easy to make custom consists in the yards due to the manual switches.
     
  7. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    The SD40-2 is a great locomotive but is something this big really used as a yard switcher?It seems like a waste of a good road engine to just have it rolling around the yard switching cars when dtg already has the UP gp38-2 to do that.
     
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  8. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    BNSF uses ET44s where I live as heavy yard switchers. I believe its all about tractive effort, as 3 axle power gives better performance than 2 axle power. (Not to mention 3000hp vs 2000hp.)
    35766372936_263705194c_b.jpg
     
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  9. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Especially on US freight routes, speed limits are limits, not targets. The important thing with freight is that it gets there, not that it gets there fast. And what physics and horsepower dictate going up, they often dictate going down as well: with a train over a mile long, taking a steep downgrade at sixty is flirting with disaster.
     
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  10. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The 40 was a great road engine in its day, but time has passed it by. Modern trains need 4000+ hp traction; and two SD70MACs burn less fuel than 3 SD40s. Besides, western switchyards move around some gigantic big cuts; you ain’t moving ‘em with SW1500s.
     
  11. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Few questions

    Do AI trains head down track 3, leave the portal and re-enter at the other portal?

    Does the turntable work?

    Any loading facilities and if so how long will it take to load a 100 car train?
     
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  12. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe the services are hidden because they potentially finish the section in future. So a mod could reactivate them.

    Not sure a portal is needed since the track and signalling is completed. Probably there will be a invisible wall.
     
  13. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    I can live with 40 or 50 car trains on my PS4.

    But there is one interesting fact:

    Sherman Hill came out 2012 for Train Simulator. That means in a time before PS4 and Xbox One. So the PC's of that time had a performance comparable of PS4 or Xbox One. The TS Sherman Hill version had longer trains in that time than the PS4 or Xbox One version now. On the other side the TSW2 version of Sherman Hill looks not so much better than the TS version.

    That means game development of the last 9 years brings you the similar product (Sherman Hill), but you need much more powerful hardware.
     
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  14. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    It's positive that we get more realistic safety systems with the SD 70. The horn sounds are much better like that of the other northamerican freight locos so far, except the F7.
     
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  15. sergio volodstok

    sergio volodstok Active Member

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    So can I. It's not worth the hassle of getting a PS5 over.

    I guess from this point on, I'll just assume that any teaser footage is specifically showcasing next gen; and last gen gets what it gets..
     
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  16. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    So true.
     
  17. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    Can you ever envision the day when UP AC4400CW's get downgraded to yard switching duty?What a sad day that will be.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2021
  18. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Less likely, I think, because barring some revolutionary future tech ca. 4300-4500 hp seems to be the practical limit for a diesel-electric. The 6000 beasts were ambitious failures, all scrapped or de-rated now. So the AC4400 and SD70MAC/ACe are going to be the quintessential road engines for a long time
     
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  19. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly the 4000-4500 hp and around 700 kN tractive effort seems to be the most effective formula for mainline diesels. The development goes in the direction of more efficiency (12 instead of 16 cylinders). And if there is a need for more power, you take some units more only.

    That solution brings also a limit for loco weight. Especially for the axle weight.

    And lower axle weight is good for the tracks.
     
  20. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    You get nothing inferior, you get an experience that matches the capabilities of the console you play at. 50 wagons is still a long train and you have the opportunity to play anyway.
     
  21. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    The limit is not the capability of the consoles.

    The limit is the software that needs much more space than the 9 year old Sherman Hill version for Train Simulator. That also included longer trains than for PS4 or Xbox One in TSW 2 now.
     
  22. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    In TS, Sherman Hill and its Successor, Battle for Sherman Hill, were two of the best DLC made for that platform. With all the add ons that could be used for the collection version, it was a franchise all by itself.
    A very tough act to beat. We'll see.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2021
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  23. mattchester#9176

    mattchester#9176 Active Member

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    You need to remember that the physics are much simpler in TS and so require much less CPU. It's simugraph in TSW modeling the physics of all the wagons that is causing the issues.

    If they used the same limited physics as TS in TSW I bet you could have trains as long as you like and the improved graphics, even on Gen 8.
     
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  24. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    Matt did say the turntable does work
     
  25. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    Yes that is very likely the reason. Especially if you think that the physics are not so realistic. For instance if you use a normal not such heavy 20 car freight train on RSN and on the top is the 182. And if you make a stop even there is no steep gradiant, the 182 (one of the most powerful locos) has difficulties to bring the train to moving.

    The same was on MSB, after the new unrealistic physics engine in TSW 2 the services to climb the Spessart Ramp did not work anymore.

    Adam and his crew had to fix this than.

    DTG should overthink if that physics engine makes real sense. It seems it is not so realistic and it cuts train length, if you don't have the most powerful hardware.
     
  26. Calidore266

    Calidore266 Well-Known Member

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    Matt said something in the stream to the effect that each car uses more CPU, and 50 cars is roughly the limit of the PS4/XB1's horsepower.

    You can cheer yourself up by imagining the behemoth that succeeds in demoting them.

    :o Speak for yourself.
     
  27. Zander34

    Zander34 New Member

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    What do you mean
     
  28. ShodanCat

    ShodanCat Member

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    there's only so much you can do with 8 year old hardware.
     
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  29. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Are you asking about Xbox One S or Xbox Series S?

    The 100 car formations will not work on any Xbox One Model.
     
  30. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    What? TSW2‘s physics are getting better with every release. How do you mean new unrealistic physics engine? Could you elaborate, please?

    Sounds to me like you‘re not waiting long enough for the brakes to release. Also, the power of the 182 doesn‘t really matter for starting the train. In Germany, you‘d start the train with 40-50kN of force per traction motor (ideally even less until you‘re rolling). Doesn‘t matter whether it‘s a 182 or 185 - both can do that easily.
    The unrealistic bit in RSN is how quickly the brakes apply.
     
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  31. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    You have that even with completely released breaks.

    And an example for worsening the physics was the "new adhesion system" that came with TSW2. It caused that it was impossible for the heavy freight trains to climb the Spessart Ramp at MSB. It needed fixing from the preservation crew. You can read that in the official Roadmap notes about preservation work at MSB.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2021
  32. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    That‘s not worsening - that‘s improvement. The new adhesion physics are far more realistic than TSW2020 physics. The problem was that the timetable for MSB was not realistic enough - if MSB had had realistic consists, then the new physics would not have affected them negatively. My point stands - the physics are getting more realistic and therefore are improving, not worsening.
     
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  33. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Released on the HUD means front of the train is released. EoT takes time to be fully released and ready to go (air flow < 60 and eotd indicates > 75 PSI).

    MSB case is about incorrect HPPT not physics :)

    BR o7
     
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  34. kolesnikvictor

    kolesnikvictor Active Member

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  35. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    You should watch videos from the original Spessart Ramp times. Than you will see that the old train formations on MSB were not wrong.

    The only mistake of the initial MSB version was and is still now, that the banking loco is coupled at the and of the train. In real it pushed only, so there was no need to uncouple it manually after the banking service. So there was also no need to stop the train after the banking service. There are a lot of youtube videos about that. :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2021
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  36. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    Just wanted to expand on the conversation about the BR 182 - power is not everything by any means. While the BR 182 is indeed extremely powerful, and is the fastest electric locomotive, it's not a heavy freight grunt loco at all because there are other considerations that are important for those types of duties.

    First - it's only got 4 axles. Heavy freight locos have 6 or even more, but usually 6.
    Second - The more axles you have, the heavier you need to be to get the same grip on the rails.

    The BR 182 is around 87 tons.

    By comparison, an actual heavy freight loco like the SD70ACe is 180 tons.
    The BR 155, another heavy freight loco also with 6 axles, is 120 tons, as is the BR 151, another heavy freight loco.

    Six axles, and more weight, are more important than more HP when it comes to lifting freight up a hill.

    The weight of most trains is also no accident either - if you take a GP38-2 and divide its weight by the 4 axles, multiply that by the 6 axles of an SD40-2 you end up with around about the same weight as an SD40-2, because the goal is to have around a set weight load per axle so as to achieve the same amount of grip but also not excessively load and potentially damage track.

    There were certainly some issues with the MSB timetable once adhesion was added but it was somewhat expected - i'd pushed the power to weight ratios of the trains right to the edge to create more challenge and fully expected adhesion would mean we'd need to change things up, which Adams team I believe have now done.
     
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  37. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    Hello Matt,

    thank you very much for your explanation.

    Do you think DB brings the power to weight ratio to the edge in real?

    For example:

    When DB built the new "Schnellfahrstrecke Nürnberg - Erfurt" they made it with steep gradients around 2 %. The background was to save money, because with steep gradients you don't have to build so much bridges and tunnels. For the ICE that gradients are no problem. But a freight train with around 2000 t can not restart after a stop there, when the gradient is 2 %.

    The result in real is, that there are no freight trains at this new track.
     
  38. StratPlayer62

    StratPlayer62 Well-Known Member

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    What information was given about track 3 on the stream? I haven't had a chance to watch it. I have to admit I was VERY disappointed that track 3 will not be included, I'm hoping it will be available as an add on at some point.

    Also, I haven't noticed any windmills in any of the screenshots I've seen so far. From a recent visit to the area, they were everywhere.
     
  39. metro north railfan 224

    metro north railfan 224 Member

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    Even then, I'm still looking forward to the release of the route regardless
     
  40. Wieczorek

    Wieczorek Member

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    I am happy.For me is not important Track 3.Without this is long this route und I not understand why people are disappointed.
     
  41. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    I saw the stream and I can confirm, that there are working windmills.

    And if we have luck, we will get track 3 later as an update similar with the Meißen branch at Dresden Nahverkehr.
     
  42. StratPlayer62

    StratPlayer62 Well-Known Member

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    Because track 3 is a "part" of Sherman Hill, just won't be the same without it.
     
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  43. metro north railfan 224

    metro north railfan 224 Member

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    It is possible. I wouldn't be surprised if they add that in. For me personally, track 3 isn't really that big of a deal but I can understand how some people feel about it. I'm from the east coast so I'm not exactly familiar with Sherman Hill but I'm still looking forward to Thursday's release.
     
  44. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    I imagine the line in question was built specifically with freight excluded from the plans which allowed them to consider more extreme approaches to the gradients (which will drastically reduce cost and time to build).

    On the one hand I would expect most railways don't run things to the limits at all - however I have heard that sometimes some railways WILL run right up to the limit and if there's a problem, split the train and bring it up in two bits, rather than shoulder the extra cost per kilometer mile of wear/maintenance/fuel etc of an additional loco or running more and shorter trains.

    In fact there's a gradient just near here where freight trains are not allowed to be signalled on to it unless they can clear it - so there has to be a clear run ahead of them specifically because if they stop, they will have to go back to the bottom and take another run, they can't start midway.

    So, it does happen, for sure.

    Matt.
     
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  45. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    And then the usual gripers would no doubt whine and wail about DTG using limited physics on a TSW2 route.
     
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  46. kolesnikvictor

    kolesnikvictor Active Member

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    It's absent in fact. There's only small section near Dale junction and Borie cutoff. That's it. I've created survey you can vote. Pray to DTG that they will add it someday
     
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  47. kolesnikvictor

    kolesnikvictor Active Member

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    Point is that the third track provides variety of actions, for the first. For the second it's unique feature and landmark of Sherman Hill. The route itself lose unique feature and feels incomplete
     
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  48. Gary Dolzall

    Gary Dolzall Active Member

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    The reason for disappointment is understandable. Track 3 is an important and integral portion of Sherman Hill and host to the majority of heavy westbound traffic. It also provides the connecting point with the busy Greely Sub from Denver and the Borie Cutoff. For those interested in experiencing authentic operations on Sherman Hill, Track 3 is important.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2021
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  49. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    Hello Matt,

    thank you for your answer.

    An example where DB rebuilt a route more freight friendly is the rebuilded Spessart route. They reduced the gradient extremely by building a very long tunnel. Sure that costs a lot. But they saved that route for freight operations. Background is probably that the Spessart route is 1 of the most important freight routes in Germany.

    And there should be much more effort in building more freight friendly routes and infrastructure like medium container terminals, rail access for industries and so on. Because with our low percentage of freight rail in (Western) Europe we will not have a chance against climate change.
     
  50. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Wrong. It was the old physics engine which ignored adhesion which was unrealistic.
     
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