Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG Natster, Feb 23, 2021.
Now that would have been good...
It’ll be interesting to see the streams when it gets closer to release, I think I will get this as it has a class 52 which I haven’t picked up yet.
OK since Sam just said on stream that you are looking for feedback and read everything in this thread, I will summarize my point of view with this pack. I do this especially considering Sam saying "if people don't buy it, we won't do it anymore" and I believe that is a dangerous assumption in terms of why is it (possibly) not getting bought. So I will give my reasons as to why I won't buy it but yet encourage you to keep the idea:
-completely new timetable
-possibility to easily switch between eras, driving or on foot
-using different rolling stock on a route and having ai traffic without setting up scenario planner
-additional scenarios and tutorials
-remade class 52 model
-locos have all been available already (reason for this being neutral, newcomers get great value out of this pack)
-no change to the modern look of the route to blend the trains with the era at all
-class 101 had limited use on the route and feels like an easy way out
-class 101 apparently has the wrong livery as well
-no new rolling stock for long lasting players
-horrendously missed opportunity to include at least one of the popular and adequate class 117 or class 35 hymek, giving players who own alot of content already at least something new to play with
Personally I won't buy this pack since I do have the included rolling stock already and thus get less value out of it as compared to someone who does not own previews dlc/routes. This is why I want to suggest, if you ever consider doing these sort of packs - which I think is a really good idea to spice up an older route anew - please consider including something new in terms of rolling stock or scenery, to give players who have already spent money on some of this content a good incentive of buying such a timetable pack (and thus some pre-owned locos) again.
Please consider this when looking at your sales numbers that in case they are underwhelming, it may not be due to the idea being wrong, but that there was just not enough incentive for existing players to spend money on it. I am still interested in what you could possibly do with a tech like this.
Really wanted this pack to have a HST in BR blue. So the real question is why didn't you include it.
Considering GWE was your first passenger route. Doesn't do it justice this pack at all. Could just given us railtour services.
I would hope you would of rebuilt the trains in this pack with correct sound's.
I Understand the 52 as that has scenarios on a slow route. But the 08 and 101 doesn't.
- This pack is good if you want it.
- Perhaps you don't own the other dlcs but have GWE and want to get one or trains in this pack.
Hope this pack is £11.99 or less.
Yes a good point.
I like the concept and hope they do similar in the future. I would have purchased it in a heart beat.
The pro's for me are:
I would like a blue class 52 and run it in it's native area
The extra timetable mode
The cons for me are:
The carriages do not look like they have enough variety for the types which were running in this period
Another mainline diesel would have been good for variety the Westerns were not the only ones to be seen
The class 101 is incorrect for the area in the period despite what information Adam thinks he might have, there were only 3 trailer cars at Reading for a short period until the late 80's. You can't argue that the unit is correct for the period when it was seen there in limited numbers over ten years later. The set number on the unit even depicts one from the late 80's
Class 101 is in the wrong livery for a local DMU in that period, it should be in all over blue
If all the class 101's are as in the screenshots are two car units, that is unrealistic as all WR class 101 units in the 70's (allocated to Plymouth and Bristol) were three car units.
So yes, good idea and I think potentially it could be popular but at least try and have a stab at getting some level of realism to it!
DTG is lazy as always, another bad dlc
I have made a suggestion post with the proposal of making this opportunity of making the 1970 timetable actually worthy! the ones that want to change the destiny of this content, propose your ideas here: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/th...of-plans-in-the-gw-diesel-legends-pack.36024/
I'll preface this by saying I probably got my hopes up too much, as I was thinking of a BR blue HST, along with the 52 which we knew about already and the route being changed aesthetically to suit the 1970s.
The idea of having multiple timetables on a route is great, it's something I can get behind, would like to see more of and hope it continues. Likewise, different era of stock (regardless of the fact it's reused from other DLC) on a route also great concept. Keep at it.
I think we were victims of our own hype... train *ahem*. We all like getting teases and morsels of information to discuss and hypothesise but it might be better to give us a little more information up front to set realistic expectations. Kind of like how the reveal of Steam was delayed to prevent everyone going nuts and was tempered with a blog. I speak only for myself when I say when I heard Great Western BR blue pack, I had in mind: complete graphical rework of an existing route and new rolling stock to match.
I'm hoping that, as this is an experiment, even if it's not successful, it won't stop DTG from trying again. The idea is a good one, it just needs some tweaking.
I will probably buy it. The 52 is new to me and I'm curious about this timetable switch.
I haven't read the entire thread, but there's enough childish, foot- stamping nonsense to last me a lifetime. You go into a store, you see a range of products on the shelves. Do you say, "Oh, I guess I have to buy one of everything"? No, you buy what you like and leave the rest on the shelf. Please, grow up people.
I don't see why DTG opted for a BR Blue 70s pack when they had no intentions of changing the scenery of the line.
Surely it would've made much more sense to include a modern Class 180, 57, 800 or even a 387? They say GWE is set in 2016, and don't want to build trains which are a couple of years newer than when it was set, yet they're okay with rolling stock being 40+ years out of date running on the line?
A modern GWE route with classic, and technically incorrect rolling stock (Class 101) and liveries, just does not look right at all. The only time this would happen in real life is if the train was working a rail-tour.
You could use the NTP TEAs in a resurrected Langley Oil Terminal. Chuck in the 47 and 31 too.
Let's try to be a bit fair to it. There are some things you could probably highlight about this DLC that are good.
-multiple timetables... will add a great tool for modding and enhancing other routes
-Class 52 with all the unique names - this would in a good DLC become a great feature as you could "collect" them, get railfan shots of all 72 number/names.
-probably a first time having a head-end station used by trains with no cab cars/2nd locos/EMUs, etc. That could introduce interesting operations to the game
Sadly all of this is packed in a thick layer of rather lazy approach - no new trains, no changes to the route (you could've at least removed the OHLE), not even all the "legends" of GW.
And finally, I have not seen the biggest irony pointed out yet - many earlier DLCs have been commented to be lacking content in either the liveries, vehicles or the operations... frequently answered with "use the Scenario Planner and Livery Designer"... you point us to a bunch of tools we can use to squeeze content out of the DLCs... and then you offer something nearly completely replaceable by these tools (granted it would be timetables, just a bunch of scenarios). We know we don't have to buy it, we don't have to own all of it... but that doesn't mean you have to make it so that nobody owns it. The concept is there, the delivery not.
From what I’ve seen, the 387 is basically a class 377/375, not exactly the same but similar design, still in the electrostar family, meaning it’ll be the third time an electrostar is seen in TSW. So idk how the 387 (if it shows up in any future route/as a dlc for existing route) will be welcomed by the community, if reactions would be positive or negative, considering similar locos already in game.
But if it does come then at least they shouldn’t reuse the sounds from the 377, unless the loco has the same sounds IRL like the 377/375.
It's a while since I played Eastcoast, but I've a vague memory of having to faff around pulling the old switcheroo at Seaford with a Class 31.
It sounds identical to the 377 and 375 units however both in TSW are technically basic sounding compared to the real thing. But yes, they'd recycle the same sounds if they were to make a 387.
It mentions running out of Old Oak Common depot. I assume this means OO/OM and not the "The Factory" OC with the turntable. Recreating Ranelagh Bridge fuelling point would have been a nice touch too...
So it is technically about the same thing as the electrostars already in game, this gives them a free pass to reuse existing electrostars for the route lol!
I haven't seen anyone say you have to purchase anything, I purchase what interests me. As a fan of 1970's railways this add-on interested me greatly. I have often been called a "fanboy" so I don't think I go in for childish foot stomping, however this add-on is not an accurate representation of what ran on the line at the time. DTG have often said they won't add unrealistic layers to the German routes so why have they on this occasion? We all have our particular areas of interest and knowledge.
Wait.. I’m paying like 20 (?) dollars for just some lazy repainted models...
also where is cane creek
387s have different windows, interiors and seating arrangements to the 377/4s and the 375/9s as well as a more up-to-date cab I think.
387s are quite a bit newer than the 377/375s.
I guess there are a lot of ways to improve this DLC, however if it includes a new train, plus the timetable it could end up costing as much as the route itself.
I see this DLC as a quick way to make off some profit from an older DLC, without putting in too much effort, and creating new trains, or having to rebuild the route would not be worth for it.
If they rebuilt the Class 52 completely from scratch, all I can say is that it would seem like a bit of a waste of resources... but I think it's just a modification of the WSR model (kind of like the Class 375/377 situation).
I think we have to admire the dedication towards timetable mode. I always thought that scenario designer is not a substitute for timetable mode and I want to support that decision, so I might buy it just for that (I assume it will be around €10/15). I do not own any other old british DLC so I don't have the value for money problem and I know I will never buy TVL and NTP anyway...
I can see a similar concept working on other routes, I suggested something similar to this for MSB a while back for example, with new timings based on a modern timetable and using the BR425 instead of the DoStos (the 425 as a replacement for the Twindexx).
I truly believe this concept would work, but with a ~40 years gap between the represented era and actual time the route is based is a bit too much in my opinion.
Come on DTG that is going backwards it was great success with the south eastern route why would you let your self down over this kind of content just looking at the pictures if that is set in the 70s then Paddington is very modern sorry but I personally think you need to start looking at what people really want instead of having to pay for a dlc that contains the same trains we already have and a route that in my opinion looks very poor start looking at the suggestions what people really want instead of just putting together content that has no meaning at all
People are still allowed to complain when a product isn’t quite up to scratch
I think its gonna be interesting to see where this goes, I know on TS21, the Western Maryland pack for CSX's Hanover Subdivision was decently popular, despite using locos already included in other DLCs. Not sure if its a US vs UK thing, or if people have low expectations after the last few DLC releases. (Though personally I have no interest in this pack.)
I've had mixed feelings about this pack since we first heard about it, and this article has not changed my mind significantly.
I like the concept of "alternate timetables" on existing routes(especially since timetable mode is the heart of TSW imho), and i'm not even that annoyed about the lack of changes to the route itself- i've taken a train from Paddington exactly once, so i can suspend disbelief.
The locos and rolling stock, otoh, are pretty disappointing. I don't have the 52 though, sooooo maybe....price point is gonna determine whether i get at launch or wait for a sale.
This is interesting as the 1938 stock is also not realistic to Bakerloo and this was mentioned tonight on the stream.
The answer given was the 1938 stock is being made by a 3rd party who can choose whatever they think will sell, so they are doing this and that is why the era-appropraite is not being adhered to.
Combined with this pack it feels like a bit of a rowing back on the era-appropriate trains only position, as if it was too restrictive.
I thought they would try something to make the route look a bit older but it seems they are just going to make anything run anywhere, maybe they feel the off the rails was more popular than expected and want to reflect this freedom in their products?
Feedback? Here's some:
1) A paid DLC which contains nothing new is not likely to sell well- certainly I'm not interested.
2) However, do not let the (probable) poor sales of this DLC persuade you that either (a) vintage rail or (b) themed loco packs are therefore not worth doing. The point is that
3) You have to include a new train, or a new/refurbished route, to attract interest.
4) the story might be entirely different had this pack included either the Class 117, or (much less likely) the GWE route with a 70s facelift. Not even necessarily both!
Addendum: However, the timetable improvement is very worthwhile to have for the future
Addendum 2: Not bothering even to repaint the 101 all blue is just, there's no other word for it, lazy
To say I’m disappointed is an understatement. Multiple timetables is a pretty big deal for the future of tsw but the rest of the dlc appears to be an afterthought.
I don’t have a problem with a rework of the 52, I’m sure the devs have learned a lot since the original was made. The problem is that it should really have been the support act to a new loco.
The 101 has already been in 2 dlc’s at this point and this was a great opportunity to add a new dmu to the game. The fact it’s in the wrong livery is pretty poor too tbh.
I’m all for DTG trying things and this really is a great idea but the execution leaves a lot to be desired. This is a timetable pack not a loco pack, if it had been marketed as such then people wouldn’t have been as disappointed (annoyed) with the recycled stock.
I’m curious what the price will be, scenario packs for TS are £6.99 and I’d say it’s worth around £8.99. Realistically though it’ll probably be £11.99, the NTP heavy freight pack cost that much with 2 locos and stock.
3 words (waste of time)
If, when it's released, the quality is "not up to scratch", complain all you want. But when I see comments like" April Fools ", "a joke" , "rip off"," milking us" etc. before anyone has even seen the product, I will always cry foul. I don't like cold cereal. Do I think I'm being ripped off simply because it's offered for purchase? Sorry for ranting, but sometimes I just get tired of the trolling that's just too common on the forum.
Reading this DLC has really just cemented in my view that DTG are treating TSW as TSC Remastered, and not the next gen sim it's supposed to be. So short routes, re-used stock that you pay x5 for, and a selective choice in accuracy.
Jeez, can we not have a good old moan in peace, without someone moaning about people moaning before weighing up what the sentiment behind their moan is? Sure, the 'DTG are ripping us off!' for something they have no obligation to purchase moan is a tad on the dramatic side, but there are still some pretty valid reasons for a good old moan.
The pack has been on the Roadmap as a '[Loco addon]'. Looking at all the other loco addons which have appeared since TSW2's release, they have all been new locos. It got peoples hopes up that given the trend to date, they'd not unreasonably hope see some new kit when the reality was that it never was adding any new locos to the game. The new timetable mode could be worth a punt if it can offer more than the clock in the top left of the screen having a different time on it, but the reception to the pack itself would probably have been much more favourable if a smear of clarity of what was being developed for a '1970's theme pack' meant in reality and had been given with the announcement of its development. DTG made a big thing about the Roadmap not being up to snuff and lacking in clarity, so maybe something like, oh I don't know, something as simple as a [Timetable addon] tag would've been a better way to go.
Then there's the locos themselves. The 52 does need a much better suited route than the current Malta of lines that it's been retired onto and I've seen plenty of comments asking for such. That's a fair shout for inclusion in the pack by DTG. But the 101? It was hardly a fan favorite when NTP came out and seemingly less so after it cropped up again on TVL. On paper, its unique characteristics 'should' make it an interesting addition and it is era correct, but the reality is that it's not exactly something that ever really got many people all that excited after its first appearance. DTG's decision to use it for NTP is completely justifiable and I guess at a push, if a little repetitive, so is TVL. But with a lukewarm at best following for the damned thing, it's not unfair to feel that they're giving people something that most simply don't want now when there are better choices available with examples already mentioned by others being either a Valenta powered HST, or if DTG want to stick with a DMU, a 117 seems to be a popular suggestion. As for the Class 08, what can you say? It's a shunter. It'll shunt stuff.
As for the way the pack was announced, suggesting that it was a 1970's theme pack for GWE was a bit of a liberty when it's little more than a handful of trains that were knocking around in the 70's being teleported onto the current, modern route layout. It remains to be seen what the alternate timetable can bring to the...erm...table, but is anyone really expecting more than just different schedule times? I don't know, maybe some classic 1970's BR scheduling and delays galore will be a feature, but that's something which can be easily replicated with having a quick cig and spending 5 minutes scratching your arse before setting off on any route we already have.
Reading between the lines, it feels a bit like the marketing chaps recognized that suggesting it was a 1970's theme pack early on was a bit of a dropping of a big, hairy one and is possibly why we've seen it become a 'Diesel Legends' pack instead...though applying the 'legends' tag to the 101 and 08 is still a bit of a quizzical eyebrow raiser. Whatever though. They could call it 'Super Swinging Seventies Southern Specials, Baby!' for all I care. The content will still be the content.
When it comes to what people are willing to spend their cold, hard cash on, we're well into the age of addons cost money. I don't think anyone is expecting to get anything for free in terms of DLC packs, whatever their guise and anyone feeling that their hand is being forced to fork out for something they don't want could do with taking their head for a wobble frankly. I think the problem though is that people who look forward to new content ARE quite willing to put their hand in their pocket, but can find little to be enthused about with this particular packs content and are drawing a bit of a blank on reasons to justify ponying up for it, which when you've been looking forward to something new and don't mind shelling out a few quid to experience it, but end up being offered with what feels like a bag full of last years recycling, is just disappointing. DTG say that they read the forums and take on board what people say, so you can't blame people for being a tad miffed at what is being offered and expressing their lack of enthusiasm to the developers.
Who knows, maybe this DLC will be the best thing since sliced fried gold, but as it currently stands, the tea leaves aren't spelling out anything all that special for a not insignificant number of people who look forward to new DLC releases.
Additional schedule and scenario package as separate content - I like it and I'm ready to buy such a product.
But this proposal looks poor. Without new content, I expected at least a schedule using - BR class 52,101,40,33,47,20,08.
I am disappointed.
Not only the wrong livery, the wrong formation. All the sets allocated to the Western region in the 70's were three car sets not two car sets.
So wrong train, wrong livery, wrong formation.
They wouldn't dare get something as fundamentally incorrect as this with a modern route with modern units so why have they here. They have read their research material incorrectly. I think they have seen there were some 101's allocated to Reading in the 80's and correlated that with the wikipedia statement that several sets were sent to the Western region from 1967, which is a misleading statement and then assumed that class 101's operated out of Reading in the 1970's. Well they could have asked on here.
I might have been able to forgive this error if they had provided a three car set in blue but they can't even get that right.
I have always supported DTG and generally like what they have done so far but this does seem to show a half hearted attitude to providing anything of historic interest. I dread to think what they will provide for a steam period route, probably rakes on mark 1 carriages in whatever regional livery they require!
You know, even if we got a brand new loco plus the 101, 52 & 08 I think it would have gone down much better. Obviously there's reasoning behind their decisions.
Sam said it was an "experiment" so maybe they didn't want to introduce a new loco on something which might be a damp squib and to be honest, after what Sam said last night, that's what they've realized it is. Sales will dictate whether we see more of these packs, I hope it sells well on the basis we'll see more packs which include new locos, but right now it's very meh.
A new loco might have sweetened things a little but for me the new stock should have been the class 117. If they have provided a new loco and at least included the class 101 as a three car unit in the correct livery I might have just brought myself round to purchasing it.
Why have they included two car sets anyway, how many commuter lines out of London use only two coach trains? The only ones I could think of were some of the services out of Kings Cross in the 70's using two car Cravens units which I think often had to be run as pairs and were frequently over crowded!
I was delighted with the announcement of package 70, but we all expected differently.
DTG I ask you to reconsider your decision. You can't ruin everything now.
Let's make this package different. The forum has already said a lot about what is expected of this package.
And yet there is no 155 and 182 on SKA, no 423 on SKA, no 425 on MSB, there will be no 101 on HMA because they don't want to have consists with two locos instead of the cab car, no substitution between the 204 and 363, etc...
So I don't think that's the problem.
And another point. The class 101 wasn't designed for routes like Paddington to Reading. It was a low density DMU so would have been used for cross country and rural routes and less intensive commuter routes. The class 117's were specifically designed for such services being of high density with doors to every seating bay to cut down station dwell times.
When the class 101's were allocated to Reading in the late 80's they weren't intended to run often into Paddington, they were for the Gatwick Airport services and some of the more rural runs like the Bicester service. Not to say that they didn't run into Paddington at that time as they did but that is ten years after this add-on is set.
Already own every loco in this pack, will one day be able to create or download the skins for them to be in BR era if I want. Can already run these trains on this route with scenario planner.
I was hoping that we would at least get one new loco that we had not seen before and ideally even a re-skin of the route when we bought the pack to actually transport us back to BR era times.
I'll buy this, but I think a remake would have been better done on NTP with intercity executive livery / large logo 47 and railfreight petroleum liveries, could even have those odd red post office 47's.... The scenery wouldn't notice much either....
And let's be honest NTP is a better driving experience....
I can’t see what’s so hard to understand.
If you are invested enough in this game and trains in general to be a member of this forum, then this pack is not aimed at you.
It’s aimed at the more casual player who doesn't own NTP or TVL and just wants a spin with some old diesels. They are getting excellent value in that case as they can use them in scenario planner on other routes and they can immediately use them in the livery editor- the 101 in particular has a lot of scope in the livery editor.
It’s an easy pack to make which should hopefully generate them some good profit which can be used in developing the more major DLC which you will all want to a higher level.
I worry for the future of TSW2 and heritage stuff, I have reinstalled it of late and try and keep reading up on the forums. The amount of negative noise towards this DLC as well as to anything BR era concerns me. My money will stay in my pocket for southern region 3rd rail based routes, never really been that keen but fair enough to those that are.
My main interest is in the shunting moves and timetable this DLC will bring. A little dissapointed no new locos but if the price is right I may take a plunge. The 47 and 31s should be featured on this line without a doubt as they were very much part of the WR scene in the 70s.
Hoping that the experiment doesnt fail to be honest...
If I was DTG, I’d be seriously considering abandoning TSW and switching to something else. It seems that every time something gets announced, all they get is moan moan moan in the forums. Some of the posts in this thread are constructive (particularly those listing their pros and cons) but the moaning minnies make it difficult to find them.
For goodness sake people, if you don’t like it, don’t buy it. By all means tell them, constructively, why you won’t be buying it as this will help with decisions about future DLC but enough of the moaning.
Anyway, moan over
Why isn't it aimed at us, who says, I don't remember reading that in the article?
I want to see as much 70's content as possible, therefore this pack would be the sort of pack which would be right up my street.
If you are a casual gamer and don't care about having a realistic experience and you don't own the stock, then yes I agree it is good value for money. However I don't see why they couldn't at least have put the class 101 in the correct livery for the period at least.
If the casual gamer is all they want to concentrate on then fair enough, they should say and I will stop purchasing any more add-ons for TSW and stick to TS1 where I can create many accurate historic experiences going back to the 1930's!
Most of the posts are constructive I would say on this thread, I know we get the angry bashing posts sometimes but I haven't seen many on this thread. Some of the moaners on this thread are not what you would call "the usual suspects"!
I have posted some comments about this pack on the roadmap discussion for 23rd. My major gripe is wsr52, 08 tvl and 101 ntp owners not having Livery designer access whilst the owners of this new pack will.
Also i am starting to get worried that the hst125 is starting to look like it will be tsw3 for Livery designer access, as the language has changed in stream from "almost all" to "most" preserved locos will get Livery designer access. Feel free to head over to roadmap forum to give some people at dtg a tag. Feel like not alot of listening is going on about preserved collection at present
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