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Train Sim World 2 - Western Glory

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG Natster, Feb 23, 2021.

  1. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    It wasn't just aviation, but the auto industry and the Interstate system also put a big hurt on the railroads as well, but now we are getting really off topic.
     
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  2. nwp1

    nwp1 Well-Known Member

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    Isn’t the class 52 already released and this collection would be enhanced if the Henley, Marlow and Windsor extensions were added as well.
     
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  3. MetrolinkF125#916

    MetrolinkF125#916 Well-Known Member

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    This pack is mostly reused content, as we’ve already seen all of the locos featured in this pack in previous dlcs. The class 52 was a dlc for the West Somerset Railway, and now it is seen here, the 101 was seen in TVL, NTP, and now this, and the class 08 was in TVL, WSR, and NTP with the Heavy freight pack.
     
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  4. MetrolinkF125#916

    MetrolinkF125#916 Well-Known Member

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    It would be enhanced if they at least changed the scenery to make the route look a little more 1970s like, idk about extensions or what the route looked like back then but any minor change would’ve been welcome.
     
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  5. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    At that point it becomes a whole new route. They'd have to rebuild it pretty much from scratch.
     
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  6. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    It would have been welcome but that probably would've taken a while to do
     
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  7. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    The desires for route changes are too naive, I think. The problem with making any route changes whatsoever is that as long as there is an unsettling contradiction between retro and modern scenery, it will never feel quite right. Why create old Paddington if the scenery is still marked by FirstGroup? Okay, well change the FirstGroup artwork to BR. But those blue fences really stand out. Those would absolute not have existed there in the '70s! Alright then, remove or modify the fencing. But the cars! No one drove a 2012 BMW in 1978! What an eyesore! And so on, and so on. I think you see my point.

    There is an inherent contradiction supposed by this DLC that could only ever be resolved with a brand new route designed around the GWML as it was in the late '70s/early '80s. Only modifying a few things along the route (disregarding that this is a massive undertaking in and of itself for what is not a route DLC) would ultimately be a waste of time because there will always be something glaringly wrong that sticks out like a sore thumb, and taking you out of the realism of the simulation. The only way to completely ameliorate that issue is to replace nearly every asset and texture with something more era-appropriate. And by that time, you might as well have created a new route pack.

    This "Western Legends" pack was never intended to be prototypical. To be perfectly honest, I am not exactly certain to whom this pack is being marketed. Clearly, the intended audience is not the realism enthusiasts; that much is obvious. If it is intended to appeal to casual railfans who wish to reminisce their childhoods of grimy London on a Class 52-hauled express, would they not be put off by the plastic cleanliness of the 2015-era route? I think that in the end, this will be mostly bought, by players who do not own the majority of locomotives featured in this pack, for the general purpose of using them in the Scenario Planner. The proposition of multiple timetables is an interesting bit of technology, but I think it falls flat in this particular application with such an absurd contrast of eras.

    My hope is that this pack will find a home on a future, more appropriate route as a dedicated timetable layer.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
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  8. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Would a pack like this make more sense for a route like ntp instead of gwe? Did the 52s even run on ntp?
     
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  9. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    No they didn't, the 52s were Western Region locos and for the most part stayed in the West
     
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  10. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I see
     
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  11. Phil78

    Phil78 Active Member

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    So, if we were to get this pack for NTP too, but substituted the 52 that didn't run the route with another 101, that'd make more sense, right? Then if you've got the heavy freight pack as well, we could have NTP with a 101, an 08, a 40, a 45, a 101, an 08, a 47, and a 101.

    Not only do you have the option of paying for the 101 three times to drive on three timetabled routes (if you want TVL and GWE), but you get to have three of the damned things on the same route too! The beauty of the symmetry in that is simply undeniable. Sometimes, just sometimes, my own genius frightens even me.
     
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  12. DROGE

    DROGE Member

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    If tihs pack is £4.99 tops, I say, good for them. We're not forced to buy it (I won't be!). However, if it's a penny more (I reckon they'll try and get £11.99 for it), then I'm sorry but they're having a massive giraffe.
     
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  13. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I'd see it going from 11.99 to 4.99 based on... how much of it you already have!
     
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  14. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    The Heavy Freight Pack for NTP was $19.99 (what, about UK14-15?). I imagine this pack will be the same. For someone who doesn't have 2 or3 of these locos, it's a fair price.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2021
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  15. david-bright184169

    david-bright184169 Active Member

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    As they charge £11.99 for a one loco pack,
    I wouldn't mind paying that much for this pack as I will only be getting one loco I haven't already got
     
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  16. zawal.belili

    zawal.belili Guest

    That's the whole point of this pack. Those who have not bought everything will win a see 2 locos in addition to new schedules on the GWE.
    Those who do not win anything or not much are people like me, those who have all the DLC ...
    In short, I wouldn't take it but if I hadn't bought everything I would have taken it too.
     
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  17. Lunar_Twisted

    Lunar_Twisted Well-Known Member

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    Even though I wasn’t interested in getting this 1970’s theme pack, if it came with the right locos that most of you suggested that DTG got wrong, then I would consider getting it. But then they also need to change the scenery and the overhead line. Plus I don’t have WSR and it’s DLC locos because I have zero interest in heritage routes. The BR Class 117 would be fun to operate though if it was included instead of the Class 101.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2021
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  18. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    That is my thinking but, the glaring error which will still stand, is that the class 101 is in blue/grey livery which at the time the Westerns were running was only used on intercity and cross country DMU's, i.e. class 119, 120, 123, 124 and 126. That for me is actually a bigger issue than the the fact the class 117 is not included, which I strongly suspected wouldn't be. It wouldn't have been hard to discover which liveries were carried, if they have no one in their office who knows the information is at their fingertips.

    Okay, it isn't supposed to be prototypical, not that their marketing material exactly makes that clear, but at least have a stab at getting some historical accuracy, then you might get a few hard core BR blue enthusiasts, like me, willing to purchase it. There is a difference between un-prototypical and fantasy!
     
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  19. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully one day the poor 101 will be given a break from subbing in for everyone else! I think if this pack included a 117 instead of 101 I might have given this pack more thought as well. I own neither the 52 nor the 08 but the 08 isn't alluring to me because I already have the 09, so that really just leaves me the 52. And in my opinion, a Class 52 DLC, as spectacular as it may be on its own, feels like a strange buy for GWE.

    Cheers
     
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  20. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Well, we'll see tomorrow what this pack actually looks like. Maybe some changes have been made to improve the authenticity factor. I get the problems some people have with the choice of locos. I wouldn't want to see the AC4400CW on Clinchfield in the 70's or 80's. But I'll buy this pack, barring any unforseen problems, because I like older British locos and we don't seem to be getting very many in the game, and because it offers additional services and AI variety. And I'm a sucker for any kind of switching. I wasn't really interested in SEHS or the 465, even less so after the latest stream, which, despite the CM's humor, I found somewhat of a yawn, and Clinchfield still seems weeks away, so I'm looking for something " new".
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2021
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  21. WVUadam

    WVUadam Well-Known Member

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    As its being previewed today. Can't be long after for the release.
     
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  22. HappyJose

    HappyJose Member

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    I can understand the frustration that has been expressed that this is just the 2015 GWE route with old traction to use on it, rather than an update to the route to reflect the period the class 52 etc would have operated on Great Western (which is what I thought it would be originally). It doesn't appeal to me as a purchase.

    However I could see myself purchasing a purely rolling stock add on to other routes. For example I really like the TVL and NTP route. If there was say a DMU pack developed with a Pacer and maybe a 156 or 158 I would probably snap that up as add ons for TVL or NTP even though it wouldn't be quite historically accurate for the time those routes are set. Maybe the fact they are historic routes rather than present day it bothers me less.

    But on a general point I would love to see some additional DMU rolling stock as although the 101 is a challenge to drive it would be good to have a slightly more modern/easier to drive DMU available.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
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  23. WonterRail

    WonterRail Well-Known Member

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    Stream is going on right and one thing I can say about this pack as is that this new separate timetable has got a lot of services, 259 of them to be precise. At least there's a lot to get out of the new timetable with this one. Plus the locos from NTP and the Class 31 can be used with this timetable.

    EDIT: There's also freight services with BR Heavy Freight Pack, but that will be coming later and not at release.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
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  24. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    A handful of the western region class 101's were painted blue/grey to work some cross country services alongside the cross country sets. However not many and it wasn't till the end of the 70's that they started to paint them blue/grey in numbers to replace the white and blue refurbished livery which was abandoned, this would have been after the Westerns were withdrawn. However it stands that the vast majority of class 101's were in blue or white and blue refurbished livery and would have been a rare sight next to a Western, especially in Paddington.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
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  25. arrigo.pierotti

    arrigo.pierotti New Member

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    I honestly like the idea of "scenario/timetable" packs curated by Dovetail or other 3rd party devs, but paying a full price for this "DLC" even when I already own some or all Trans-Pennine/BR Heavy Freight/Tees Valley DLCs it's a bit of a kick in the teeth since I already paid for part of the content.

    If this goes live with no discounts, I hope that Dovetail will give us players a way to share custom scenarios (either with something proprietary or by steam workshop) very soon. In this way people could still enjoy "gameplay content" but created by the community like it's in TS202x
     
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  26. Trenomarcus

    Trenomarcus Well-Known Member

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    Really, guys, I love you. I mean I'm with you from day 1, talking about the you that are here from MSTS times.

    But, why are you releasing content that you know is not complete? "Freight is coming later"? What bull**it is this? Then DO NOT RELEASE IT.
     
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  27. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    The Price is a joke 17,99€
    I don’t pay this
     
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  28. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Well-Known Member

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    very easy I won’t buy it
     
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  29. heyitspopcorn

    heyitspopcorn Well-Known Member

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    Have the locos/DMU in this pack been reworked in any way? Do they now have full physics/adhesion? New sounds? I see the nameplates were added on the 52, but have they been updated in any other way?

    If the units have been updated to TSW2 standards, have new and better texturing, have updated modeling (I know it's not the exact same, but going back to the Class 09 in WSR, the cab interior looks pretty atrocious), then $22 seems fair.

    Otherwise, no. $22 for a timetable is having a laff. At $15, I would consider it.
     
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  30. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    Not do defend DTG, but I may guess. There is a lot content almost ready by now and I think they do not want to release it all at almost the same time, say max one DLC per week. So they got stuck a bit with the SEH release date, the class 465, now this one and Clinchfield and Arosa coming very soon. Not to mention the three TSG add-ons coming some day and so on. Just let DTG do what seems fit for them, no need to hurry to the steam shop to buy it now.
     
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  31. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    €17.99 is a bit too much for me, maybe I'll wait for a sale
     
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  32. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    It looks pretty good with the 31, 47 and the prospect of some freight, provided you have the appropriate add-ons already. Not sure about 45s though....and the £15 price tag.
     
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  33. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Having watched the stream I do think this sort of pack could work. I soon started to not see the catenary and the Western looks and sounds good and not out of place. In fact the general sounds were very pleasing. If I was happier with the DMU I would definately purchase it.

    I understand this is a compromise and they obviously don't want to make new trains for these packs but there for me the problem lies.

    The coaching stock is not representative in the 1970's there would have been many trains formed of mark 1 passenger vehicles in particular I think the Oxford services plus some longer distance ones, WSR has some so they could have reskinned those. Also there are no catering vehicles (mark 1 RMB and RBR) and you would have more variety of mark 2 vehicles, BSO/BSK/BFK. By 1976 many of the loco hauled services not hauled by Westerns, but the newly cascaded class 50's and the class 47/4's already there were formed of air conditioned mark 2 stock.

    The DMU is a strange one, I was slightly out, it was the very late 70's when they started painting them blue/grey to replace the short lived white with blue stripe refurbished livery, so after the Westerns had gone, there certainly wouldn't have been many. A few 101's received blue and grey in the mid 70s for cross country services which would have been services like Bristol to Weymouth, Bristol to Plymouth but they would not have been seen around Reading, this was something new I learnt. However the vast majority of class 101's in the 1970's would not have been blue/grey, however some at least of the Western region ones were, but that would have been around ten sets as they only had a few on the Western region in that period. The class 101 shown has its late 80's set number and two car sets were not common until the very end of the Reading sets in 1993 so I am not sure why they have modelled the two car set. I was pleased to see some three car (or six) car sets. If they do make a class 117 I would purchase it but the class 101 is too wrong for the route.
     
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  34. phillip.good

    phillip.good Active Member

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    I was doubtful but am genuinely looking forward to this, you had me at the additional use of 47, 45 and 31
     
  35. andrewandjane66

    andrewandjane66 Active Member

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    I'm reminded of a Jimmy Carr joke


    "I grew up in Slough in the 1970s. If you want to know what Slough was like in the 1970s, go there now."
     
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  36. SprattyHeath

    SprattyHeath Well-Known Member

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    £15 for what basically is just repackaged locos we already have is absolutely unjustifiable in my opinion.

    There are already people who have done a BR Blue Class 52 and have not charged a single penny for it and we have scenario editor for a reason.

    Couldn't have at least given us some BR Mk1 B&G coaches, is it THAT much to ask for???

    Will be saving my money instead for Arosa when it comes out...
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
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  37. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    The class 45 would have been an extremely unusual visitor to Paddington. I think it happened once or twice. Also the loco's on NTP are the wrong period for the 1970's pack as the Western is showing headcodes which places it in pre 1976!
     
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  38. eire007

    eire007 Active Member

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    One word comes to mind “lazy” but we will all suffer as there are people out there who will buy this and DTG will think it’s a good idea. I had every intention to buy until I seen it looks exactly the same just with older locos??? WTF. They couldn’t even be bothered changing it to make it at least look like it’s the 1970’s. What a waste for effort and time on DTG’s behalf. Simple cash in for dummies who will buy it.
     
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  39. phillip.good

    phillip.good Active Member

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    Careful sunshine, I am pretty sure I am not a dummy.
     
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  40. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Which would have meant building a whole new route. It's not like giving a loco a paint job, you know. It pretty much has to be redone from scratch- even a lot of the trackage. And as a new route, they would have had to charge 30-35 pounds for it.

    (Although I must admit the word "lazy" does come to mind wrt leaving the 101 in inappropriate blue and grey- THAT would have been easy enough to correct.)
     
  41. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I don't think you should be calling people dummies to be honest. It is up to people how they spend their money and if they get pleasure out of it then that makes it a shrewd investment on their behalf.

    I like the concept but for me it is too inaccurate at the moment but I was close to caving in but the DMU looks too wrong.

    Probably should revise that to almost inappropriate as it seems a handful of Western region class 101's were blue and grey (they were the exception for such DMU's at the time) but they certainly would not have been travelling between Reading and London or wearing 1980's set numbers.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
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  42. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I think it is a great pack. I’m not too surprised that it costs more than a loco DLC as there is a lot more gameplay content than a loco DLC and the locos have had some work done, although not that much. I’m not sure the pricing will help sales though as some people who have all the trains may see that as too steep. I’m unsure if I’ll buy straight away but I will definitely buy it. It has a lot to offer in the timetable, more than the original GWE timetable in fact. It’s still one of my favourite routes so I may be tempted to get it on release day because while I was watching the stream, I actually wanted to drive in that timetable there and then. I have all the locos in it already. The fact that the 31, 45 and 47 sub in just makes it better, it’s just a shame the freight didn’t make it in straight away. We already know this pack has irked the purists but I’m not bothered because I’m fully aware of DTG’s intentions for the pack, and they were only ever going to use trains they have already released. They have never said a new train would be included, it’s a timetable/livery pack after all.
     
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  43. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Many of us are purists interested in different eras. The point is they wouldn't put a class 465 on ECW or a class 313 on SEHS as there would be much muttering and anger. When the pack was first announced I didn't know what to expect, I didn't see anything personally which said it was only using existing stock, I assumed it would most likely do, but I had a small hope that surely they wouldn't use the class 101 on Reading to Paddington services which would be as realistic as including a class 91 and mark 4 stock on a WCML route. But there you go, more fool me!

    But, this is my era and I am not a casual gamer, so yes I am irked, just like people were irked because the ballast was the wrong colour on SEHS, which got changed! I am mainly irked as we get very little of this period in train sims so this is a rare opportunity as I can imagine we will be waiting for some time till we get something else for this era, and I suspect when we do it will feature the class 101 again!

    I will say when watching I was closer to wanting to purchase it than I expected, the blue 52 looks and sounds great and when there are many trains about you can almost forget it is a modern route, certainly on the stream, in fact the sounds were very good on all the stock, particularly the sounds of passing expresses when Matt was pottering about in the class 08. For me, however, I can't get past the inaccuracy of the DMU. An all blue one would at least have looked more the part on local suburban services.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
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  44. Bertil Persson

    Bertil Persson Active Member

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    This is actually what I’ve been waiting for! I don’t like struggling with the scenario planner. It’s a disgrace for the Class 52 to be stuffed away at WSR. 25 mph!!! It’s like letting a herd of cows out of the barn in spring. 100 mph AND a lot of ready made services including loco changes and shunting. WOW!!!
     
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  45. Bertil Persson

    Bertil Persson Active Member

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    I hear that the 101 did run on the Great Western line, and it wasn’t possible now to add any new stuff.
     
  46. Bertil Persson

    Bertil Persson Active Member

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    Well they did explain why it had the wrong colour.
     
  47. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    In the late 1960's Reading depot had three centre cars to replace Hawksworth coaches used to strengthen the class 117 sets, that is three centre carriages not even full sets.

    In the mid 1970's the Western region had a small allocation of class 101's used in South Wales and the West country mainly on cross country medium distance services, so no where near London. Some of these were in blue and grey.

    In 1988 Reading had an allocation of class 101's to work Reading to Gatwick and Redhill services, even then the rarely worked into Paddington. This is the one in the sim judging by the unit numbers of the ones in the stream. They were only in blue/grey at Reading for a very short period as they were quickly repainted into Network South East livery.

    So yes there would have been a few occasions where there would have been a blue/grey class 101 working Reading to Paddington locals but not in the 70's and over ten years after the last class 52 had been withdrawn and even then fairly rare.
     
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  48. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Well that is fine, I don't doubt the explanation, it is just disappointing for me as a irksome purist! I will wait for five years till the next BR blue add-on comes along!
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
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  49. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Here is some information regarding the odd blue and grey class 101 sets for anyone not yet bored of the vagaries of first generation DMU liveries in the 1970's:

     
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  50. 43050

    43050 Active Member

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    I have to say I enjoyed the stream and will definitely be buying it. The Western looks fab! The route aside, I know there are discrepancies with the coaching stock and the 101 and that all three items have been available for some time but even owning TVL and NTP, I think the cost for the timetable and the ability to perform proper run rounds gives the product a lot of playability. And each Western with nameplates. That’s going to be great!
     
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