Train Sim World 3 - Bustling Birmingham

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG Alex, Nov 15, 2022.

  1. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    I thought Daisy did really well, a bit of nerves perhaps at the start, but then collectively we can be a tough crowd.
     
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  2. royalscot#3684

    royalscot#3684 Well-Known Member

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    It will be interesting to see how many platforms are accessible at New Street in Scenario editor. All they said on the stream was "more than one" and "can't remember" - that sounds ominous. It won't be so bad if you can populate New Street in scenario mode, but if you can't it's a farce frankly.
     
  3. LIRRGuy

    LIRRGuy Well-Known Member

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    Give it like a Month to a year Max. New Street is gonna pop again in a DLC
     
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  4. james64

    james64 Well-Known Member

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    It's great to see how much meticulous detail has gone into the 323, I'm really looking forward to driving it. The route looks pretty good too, bit lifeless at New Street but it's not the end of the world. I think I'll end up getting it, it's a fairly meaty route with a varied service pattern, even if the rolling stock is limited. I just hope DTG are a little more adventurous for their next modern British route.

    I really enjoyed Daisy's insight during the stream. It's clear that the route wouldn't be half as good without her help, even recording the sounds of the chocolate factory. That's the kind of obsessive detail I love. It's always great to hear about a route from someone local to/ involved with the real life version. I'm hoping it becomes a pattern for future previews.
     
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  5. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    Agreed about it not being busy, and also that likely it won't ever be on this route, will be a later route where the 323 becomes a layer.

    Which makes me wonder if the lack of UK DLC is the issue? I mean Victoria looks good with all the layers on, but none of those run to BNS, so you would need an entire different set of traffic. Perhaps it is time to build out things north of London.

    Now if WCML was built then some of that would be in there like Avanti, plus Cross Country, once they have these licences then there are several sets of trains that could be built. There are other WM trains too. I guess what I am saying is this doesn't have to be a one-trick route with an empty station.
     
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  6. MAX1319

    MAX1319 Well-Known Member

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    Did anyone noticed if the AI trains PIS were working during the stream?
     
  7. cloudyskies21

    cloudyskies21 Well-Known Member

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    So, I've just watched most of the stream and can I first say that insight from Daisy was fantastic, some really interesting facts and demonstrated a lot of enthusiasm which was great - I hope more preview streams can have a few more guests.

    Anyway, time to move onto my first thoughts. While I thought the route actually looked fantastic, overall I didn't get much of a wow factor, if at all if being honest, thus not sure if I will ever get the route - and this is considering modern UK routes are my favourite. Here are some of my positive and negative impressions of the route:

    Positives
    - Was really surprised how great the route actually looked, plus the nice extra details - if more future routes look like this then I'll be happy.
    - The 323 looks great, both from the cab and exterior, with lots of nice features and decent sounds.

    Negatives

    - I think this particular route that features the UK's biggest station outside London without the available layers/rolling stock was way too ambitious at this stage. Why not create a quieter route or two in this area, complemented by newer, appropriate rolling stock and/or new TOCs - and then at some point in the future you could of had a not so empty New Street version of Cross-City. I mean look at London Commuter, think how many different routes it took to get a pretty immersive and bustling experience with Victoria, Gatwick and Brighton with the Southeastern, GWR 166 and 313s, respectively etc.
    - While relating to the above, I think this warrants its own point - it's frustrating to see such an empty New Street Station. I see a few comments on the forums of people saying now we have New Street that it could form the basis for a further network of routes - that's great, but what happens after two or three routes when people start moaning they want fresher content and demand no more routes in that same area (*cough* London/SE *cough*)??
    - This leads me onto my next point, again maybe too ambitious, but now we are in post-rush hour of TSW, to see the new Cross-City route with just 248 services (plus no depot) is underwhelming in one of the UK's busiest rail networks, and feels like we are going backward instead of going forward. While the extra layers such as the RHTT, Class 37 and 43 are a nice touch, this feels a long way off compared with the German routes for example - Cross-City should really have had a least another unique modern passenger loco, and thus in turn, a potentially more busier and varied timetable opportunity, considering it's a brand new area on TSW.
    - As someone who likes modern UK routes as a favourite, I'm a bit disappointed overall. I, of course, welcome new areas of the UK for routes, but please have major stations that are busy.
     
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  8. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    They can't make all routes like rush hour lol. Your points are valid and I agree.
     
  9. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    These all touch upon an unavoidable fact of real life: Germany has a national rail carrier, which uses the same hardware across the nation. The UK is a hodgepodge of operators, liveries, and train classes. What works for the former in TSW (layers building upon layers) can't work for the latter; 143s pulling Dostos may be repetitive, even boring, but they certainly provide traffic on any German route DTG might care to make. But Britain? DTG finally built up enough of a roster of London-area carriers and train models (though still no Thameslink or 700) to produce London Commuter- but of course got slagged for "too many" south-east region Electrostar routes. But when they move out to Glasgow or Brum- guess what? They have to start from scratch. They currently have no other train that runs on the BCC or into Brum New Street- except the HST, and that's a no-go because they don't have a CrossCountry license. So it is what it is.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2022
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  10. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Saw the Cadbury Bar collectible and for Cadbury Bourneville factory does it have an Industrial siding US Railroad Terminology Industrial Spur or not? If so then a VAA/VGA Van with possible Class 60 DLC can be added to serve them
     
  11. vashh#5683

    vashh#5683 New Member

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    I love scenario mode, that is why I asked that question to them.
     
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  12. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    It's Bournville with no e and no, not rail served for many years. In fact Cadburys moved most of their production out of the UK to Eastern Europe some years ago, closing factories and made many workers redundant in the process. Their product is now somewhat inferior to real chocolate with a high % of cocoa such as Green & Black, Lindt or Aldi own brand. More like chocolate flavoured candy!
     
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  13. andrewandjane66

    andrewandjane66 Well-Known Member

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    One of the Cadbury's locomotives still lives and resides within a few miles of the route.
    https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/avonside-engine-co-works-no-1977-cadbury-no1-0-4-0t/#:~:text=This locomotive was built by,incorporated six miles of track.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2022
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  14. richtayls

    richtayls Member

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    I feel the Sectorisation era would have worked a lot better for rolling out new regions, with a mix of InterCity, Network SouthEast, ScotRail and Regional Railways, not to mention all the RailFrieght options, you could go pretty much anywhere and be as full as the German routes.
     
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  15. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    That may be the case, but I suspect that sales data points to modern routes being more popular, so that's where DTG have been keen to focus their resources. Bear in mind that a large portion of the playerbase may be too young to fully remember a lot of the trains and liveries you look back on fondly, so they'd be far more attracted to buying the kind of trains they ride to school/college/work every day.
     
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  16. Nick Y

    Nick Y Well-Known Member

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    That's because they are owned by Kraft Foods, a US company and they changed the recipes to suit American tastes.
     
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  17. richtayls

    richtayls Member

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    Yeah I guess modern routes sell in greater numbers, although it’s a shame that so far they’ve either gone current day or early diesel (Class 101 etc), I for one would pay good money to swap out the empty New Street for something packed with pre privatisation rolling stock, similar to how they did Diesels of the Great Western.

    Of course if all I wanted was things I look back on fondly I would want them to do the Chiltern line, but even if they simulated every single train it would still look pretty empty!
     
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  18. royalscot#3684

    royalscot#3684 Well-Known Member

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    Or perhaps more accurately, American lack of taste...
     
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  19. yambam#1598

    yambam#1598 Member

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    If you are going towards Gloucester line you can only access that line from plat 5 to platform 12. If you want to access the Down Main (Proof House Junction, it can be accessed from all platforms barring 4C.
     
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  20. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    Mmmm… Dairylea Creme Eggs!
     
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  21. sophieclarke1983

    sophieclarke1983 Well-Known Member

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    Well said was definitely a plus point having a WMR employee on stream also tge fantastic traction motor audio a massive step up
    From cross city line in train sim classic and working GSM/R
     
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  22. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the information but I find Cadbury made in Bournville Much better than its American counterpart made in Hershey Pennsylvania which has a railroad spur attached to the factory due to the flavour. Try eating the American version It's going to taste the sugar 1st then the milk flavour but gives a sour butyric acid taste in the end while the Birmingham Cross City Line & Australian made version tastes like all European Chocolates including the Luzern Sursee Lindt/Frey Milk first then Sugar Flavour.
    When the factory had a railway Siding US Terminology railroad Spur was a Class 08 or 09 shunters used there or not?
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2022
  23. AtherianKing

    AtherianKing Well-Known Member

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    I saw a lot of details put into this route on the stream yesterday, the knowledge provided by daisy and the extra effort put in by daisy was both interesting and appreciated. Looks like a lot of people are exited for this one, especially the locals to the route.

    I need to spend more time on the dlc I already have (there’s a huge amount of hours in just one route for services, increases considerably the more routes you have), but this one is one I’ll watch to get at some point in the future.
     
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  24. royalscot#3684

    royalscot#3684 Well-Known Member

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    What I don't understand is why DTG wasted time getting a Cadbury licence for chocolates rather than getting a CrossCountry or Avanti licence for actual trains...
     
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  25. UnlimitedMagic

    UnlimitedMagic Well-Known Member

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    Is that inflation?
     
  26. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    You expected them to model an Avanti Pendolino or Voyager just to sit in New Street or even a Cross Country Voyager to travel the few miles to the foot of the Lickey incline! Maybe getting the Cadbury licence was a lot easier also!
     
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  27. bittesteigensieein

    bittesteigensieein Member

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    For me it looked like the AI PIS was not working...this would be a shame if not corrected. It's nice to see where other trains are heading.
     
  28. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Say rather, Kraft's accountants made changes to save money. We USians still prefer things like Ghirardelli, if we're disposed to pay for it.

    What my Papa called "the cheapness experts" have been the ruination of American manufacturing.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2022
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  29. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    at least you still have generous portions, we have shrinkflation on top :(
     
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  30. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    A debatable point. UK inflation currently reckoned about 10% but that's largely due to energy price rises this year. The last few years it has been running at a much lower level.
     
  31. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    But it's Hershey which manufactures the Cadbury chocolate bars in the US.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2022
  32. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    Cross country would never have happened since the license was lost in tsc. Cross country might have said no even though dtg asked and dtg has to respect that. But do to losing the license, cross country wouldn't come to the game. Dtg do have an avanti license but only for cc (idk about the one for trains). Now they have to create the route which would require a lot of work. Also avanti is better in its own route. And that would still require them to build a new train with new physics and sounds, modeling. The work needed for branded chocolate is minimal compared to the work needed to get a train license and then to model the actual train and set everything up.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2022
  33. Hiro Protagonist

    Hiro Protagonist Well-Known Member

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    Mondelez (parent of Cadbury) and Kraft are separate companies now, not that it makes that much difference.
     
  34. cloudyskies21

    cloudyskies21 Well-Known Member

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    While I completely agree with your points, the thing I can't understand why the very first route in a brand-new area for TSW had to be the busiest station in the UK outside of London?! A busy station only works in TSW when there is a plethora of suitable passenger rolling stock suitable for that particular route - not just a single class of train. It's this reason why I don't like the Cathcart route, the immersion is lost entirely at an empty Glasgow Central.
     
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  35. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    We'll have to see if the shape of the chocolate squares is correct though...and the wrapper better still have some foil look to it...I wonder if they will just re-skin a milkybar...
     
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  36. royalscot#3684

    royalscot#3684 Well-Known Member

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    Sadly I expected them to produce an empty New Street and that's what we got... They could have done a 170 in both West Midlands and Cross Country livery had they got both licenses. 170s have been on diversions on practically every route through New Street as well as appearing on regular services to Worcester and Hereford.
     
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  37. Princess Entrapta

    Princess Entrapta Well-Known Member

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    It'll be 33% more expensive and 33% smaller.
    Which reminds me, has anyone worked out the route's price in Freddos at current exchange rates?
     
  38. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Sure, no problem. Knock that out before lunchtime... :|


    Jesus, some people's completely unrealistic expectations! (And, for the umpteenth time, the CrossCountry license is NOT going to happen.)
     
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  39. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Then why choose to produce a route when you know that it will have just one train?

    At least in Cajon we have two drivable trains. I hope that the coming US route will have at least two, because that's what I'm saving my pennies for.
     
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  40. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Would one train with 2 driving cabs count? Example: loco and cabcar
     
  41. Jay1986

    Jay1986 Member

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    Maybe you should stop playing the game altogether then.
     
  42. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    In Cajon, one of them is just a reskin, not a new locomotive. That option doesn't exist for BCC. Nor anywhere else in Britain that isn't the Southeast and third-rail
     
  43. davejc64

    davejc64 Well-Known Member

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    One answer would be to do everything unbranded and let the community brand them instead. I can already hear the DTG defenders typing their disapproval of that even before I hit reply. :cool:
     
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  44. Southern Driver

    Southern Driver Active Member

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    The other option would have been to set the route in the recent past. Regional Railways. Intercity. The 150 already exists in that livery for a start.

    If sticking with the current 170s do carry WMT livery so would have been feasible.

    call me old fashioned but my view is they if you don’t have enough license to populate a route properly or even nearly properly then don’t!!!! Choose another route!!!

    And I completely agree about Cathcart immersion lacking due to lack of AI traffic.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2022
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  45. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    Why is it not going to happen? (I don't know the in's and out's of everything TSW related). Are they known as been difficult to obtain or is there another reason..?

    Because it's a "quick win". Quick in the sense that it takes less time than making more than one new train set. We get a new route away from the South East and B'ham New Street is then a placeholder for a future DLC when it will get layered up.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2022
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  46. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Indeed or they could have set back in pre privatisation period where the licences for BR etc. livery are already held. Yes a bit more research would have been required for the slightly retro period, but it can be done as demonstrated with SoS. You would have had the Class 47 and Mark 2's which could have represented the cross country services and at a push the 101 could have layered in for local services to and from the Worcester line.

    All these projects are planned months ahead and as we keep reminding ourselves, DTG are a £million business with full time artists and modellers. For £30 it is not, IMHO, unreasonable to expect two new traction types in a route DLC if appropriate. And in the case of Birmingham New Street, it is appropriate. Sorry to say this, but I think DTG have started to get more than a little lazy on this, as well as slightly greedy.
     
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  47. arek#2842

    arek#2842 Well-Known Member

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    Reason for that might be that old diesel stuff is not that popular for common customer than modern electric trains, hence the choice of the timeframe set up of the route, but that's just my speculation.
     
  48. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    And of course you wouldn't have got Bromsgrove and the Lickey in as past of the electrified network. In BR days the service to Worcester was not that frequent, not even regular interval and in fact for many years Bromsgrove only had one platform, on the Up side, meaning Down trains had to cross over to use it. So I guess the trade off is fewer trains and more services, or more trains and fewer services.
     
  49. arek#2842

    arek#2842 Well-Known Member

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    I'm always in regards to more AI trains traffic than number of playable services. Usually after completing about 100 services I master the route and the train(s) there and it becomes non-challanging and boring for further exploration.
     
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  50. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    If you're going to start building a Midlands network and have the WMR licence, there's not much you can do that doesn't go through New Street. And I guarantee, if they had picked one of the outliers, people would have complained that it was a missed opportunity and they "can't believe they'd make a Midlands route and not include the busiest station outside of London..."

    wmr_regional_map_with_rail_zones_-_march_22.jpg
    As Vern says, the timetable was far thinner back then. The new station at Bromsgrove has only been open and fully electrified in the last five years or so, and the timetables have (and still are) built up gradually over time. I think you're right though, much of the playerbase will be keen to drive what's current and what they see/use every day.
     
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