Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG Natster, Nov 16, 2021.
probably sherman hill was added near completion in the roadmap
...which will probably be the trend going forward rather than have content lingering on the roadmap in some cases for over a year previously. Personally I liked seeing the long term vision but I can understand the reason for the change as people around here start getting antsy after a while
To be fair we've just had two UK routes even if one was from a third party, the US hasn't had too much to shout about in the last few months given some of the stuff you read about Boston
BS? Are you sure? There is a US Train game in development at the moment I see no mention of UK or ROW information (looks good btw). In Transport Fever they could not even put in driving on the left for the UK maps and driving on the right for trains was the norm even though more trains drive on the left there are loads of other examples in loads of other games.
Does it bother me? No, I expect some bias with countries in other countries, seems fair to me as that is where they are based and that is their local Market. DTG has been more than fair to foreign routes, no problem here. Just be nice for a little 'bias' here and there, saying that as I said they could do another French route if they fix up the GWE as it wouldn't affect me as I wouldn't buy it anyway.
If they continue to ignore the GWE, no problem either. I just wish they would be honest so that I can spend my money elsewhere.
Dude, old routes are slowly getting touched up by the preservation team. But it's a slow process. We would all like it to be faster, but it is what it is.Everyone could pick their favorite route and say "come on, fix this route NOW, stop ingoring it!", but the reality is that routes have to wait for their turn.
I would also like a second round for LIRR as soon as possible, but I accepted the fact that LIRR probably won't be touched for at least another year. And LIRR is in a really bad shape. In comparison, GWE is in a pretty good shape and actually enjoyable.
I don't know if you caught what Adam said? He said that all but 6 routes in the preservation have been done, finished but he has no idea when they will be released. This is so frustrating for us and Adam's team.
I see that operating gates for railroad crossings are in production for preserved collection. I guess it’s a big project to work on.
Try a foreign one out on sale- you might like them.
They remind me of my holiday’s
Just jumping in here to mention that the "world" in train Sim world actually stands for being able to walk around outside of the train, not that the whole world is included geographically. So the argument "it is called world so we need [random country] routes" is actually not an argument...
That’s right, you don’t go to Walt Disney World and harass Mickey because there’s no Dutch mice there.
Aren't we a sorry bunch of narrow minded jingoists?!
And I disagree. TSW does mean, to me at least, The World of Trains.
I remember having to collect Jinjo’s in Banjo Kazooie. Brilliant game.
So the World of Trains only consists of UK/GER/US trains?
We can keep discussing what the word World means but we already got an answer from DTG. And now I'm going to spin what they said as confirming that World means international as they announced the international route third party developer program. Yes I'm inventing it as I typ
You could just as easily say "So the only people capable of developing a train game come from the UK and Germany?"
I'm sure there are Dutch and Belgian developers who could develop for TSW2 if they had the desire to do so
Sure, but they could still have named it Train Sim Land
There are five or six "Lands" in game so that wouldn't have been accurate either and "Train sim - Countries we've made but not all of them because that would be complicated, expensive and impractical without third party support" is a bit cumbersome.
Well, this is now moot. As the preview clip from the stream shows that the Red has been replaced by the correct Yellow stripe!
Ah, this physics thing explains a lot. I guess that the timetable was also based on how long it was taking AI trains to make it between stations, since the only way to make the Arosa-Chur run and get to each of the stations along the way on time is to go at twice the speed limit.
People complaining about there being no UK route on the roadmap, meanwhile no Australian DLC has even been developed for TSW or TS. Pretty sure if I can live without my country ever being represented, you can live with not knowing what UK routes are in development for a few weeks.
This statement nails it, and I wholeheartedly agree. The folks at DTG are trying as good as they can to balance the releases geographically speaking. I am not saying that it works all the time, as we sometimes get more German content, other times more UK content. I am sure the vets from the early days remember when TSW was severely lacking US content, and now we are here with multiple US routes in the pipeline. There are so many things that can go wrong with planning and realizing of content that we just need to be patient and keep on banging at the door until someone opens up, in a civil and orderly fashion I might add . Wish everybody a nice day. Cheers
So true. It's mildly infuriating listening to people complain that their country doesn't have enough content, meanwhile Australians (and many other countries) have absolutely nothing. However this could also be seen as a positive given the recent quality of some of the content coming out. I'd rather never see Australian content than have it produced to a low quality. I am just hoping that dovetail open up the game for third party developers.
Totally understandable. I've also said a few times that I'm happy there is no japanese content yet as I'm afraid it would be horrible quality. But even if things are still far from perfect, they seem to show an increase in add-on quality.
So I'm hoping that if we ever get a japanese route for the game, by that time they will reach a quality standard I'm satisfied with and the route I've been waiting years for won't be unenjoyable.
That being said, I'd really like to see something foreign, not from the big three. The french TGV route and Arose seemed promising, but both are quite weak add-ons, so I passed on them. But an improved Arosa, or a better quality french route would actually interest me.
Is everyone certain about that?
There are no Icelandic routes.
(No really, there are no Icelandic routes ).
I think a fictional Icelandic route would be a great idea!
Think of the great scenery. And collecting volcanic rocks and a troll here and there!!
And with the Northern Lights, night lighting would not be a problem.
I was quite dissapointed to hear TrainSim-Matt 's on 'other countries'.
Firstly, I can't see how having 'only' 1 route of a country would be worse than having 0. Sticking to the example of the Netherlands, I'd rather have 1 Dutch route than having none at all. I also don't mind if it takes years for a 2nd Dutch routes to arrive, considering we've been without Dutch routes for a decade. Telling us 0 is better than 1 makes no sense. I need a better explanation to be convinced.
Secondly, I don't understand how DTG says having variety is a good thing, yet if they add a new country, they'd want to keep on adding content of that specific country, basically turning 'Train Sim 3 Countries' into 'Train Sim 4 Countries'. How's that supposed to help adding variety more than adding several new countries?
Thirdly, Matt says that adding a new country would mean there'd be less UK/US/DE content developed. While I understand that if you're from one of these countries that does sound like a bad thing, however I've seen plenty of people in the community complaining about DTG recycling the same old three countries over and over again. So would having less UK/US/DE content being developed necessarily be a bad thing, or would it please just as many people as it'd upset?
Fourthly, DTG takes the easy way out again and point in the direction of third party developers, while several third parties have complained about the difficulties of working with DTG and getting set up. Several community members have stated that the person responsible at DTG simply doesn't reply any e-mails. It sounds too contradicting to encourage potential developers to get in touch with DTG, but simultanously making it pretty difficulty for anyone to get set up. Not having any public editing tools doesn't help either.
Fifthly, Matt stated it required getting to know how railways operate and building a lot of new assets, when developing a new country. While it makes sense in a way, I can't imagine there's a lot of different ways in how railways operate thoughout countries, especially within a region like Western Europe. DTG already did Austrian routes for Train Simulator for example, so they know how trains operate there. And while there may be some country-specific assets like signals or stations, there's gotta be plenty of architectural similarities within a region like Western Europe. Additionally, DTG already has created assets for Marseille-Avignon, so assets shouldn't be a reason not to make another French route.
Overall, I found it a pretty lame story and it really sounded more like a bad excuse to keep up pumping out the same old three countries. I guess it's the most economical profitable route. That's fine, but just be honest about it. It's good for your UK/US/DE consumer base, they'll probably be very happy. But it feels like slap in the face for the 'rest of the world', IMO.
As I understand it, the problem is that the first roure for a country will be the most expensive to develop and that to get the best return on that investment they'd need to develop follow up routes. However, that is not viable if there is not sustained interest for routes in a particular country.
What is important to remember, I feel, is that the majority of players will be from the US, UK or Germany and that if a route is to be successful it has to offer something that the core majority will be interested in. Many players will be interested in a new country as a novelty to play but won't necessarily be interested in a wider range of content for that country.
Admittedly, the red stripe would've looked better (if it wasn't for the FRA to change it). But that's just me.
Here I would definitely disagree to an extent. Countries like Austria are to an extent similar to Germany, but overall the railroads in Europe have a ton of differences - signals, safety systems, tracks, catenary, PIS etc. I definitely believe hopping into a new country is a BIG investment into assets. And even LGV didn't completely open the French doors as they only have LGV catenary (and not all types of it for that matter). So yes, with making a new country it makes sense for them to want routes from it.
seems so, at least not on the roadmap
So where's our second French or Canadian route? Where's Rivet's 2nd Swiss route?
Now perhaps for a tiny country there might not be enough sustained interest, but you're not convincing me that out of the hundreds of countries we have in this world, only 3 have enough sustained interest.
Sounds pretty logical to me that if a game focuses on content for US/UK/DE, it'll attract a bigger audience in those countries. And that's even without considering the language barrier for any non-native English speakers which may make it difficult for certain audiences to participate in the online community.
I hear trains are popular in Japan. China is one of the quickest growing economies, and Russia has a population twice as a big as the UK. And yet most people asking about Japanese, Chinese or Russian routes aren't even from any of those countries. I can't imagine there's no potential outside of the current US/UK/DE.
Then why did Rivet succesfully launch a number of Swiss routes for Train Simulator? Sure, not all countries may be as interesting, but seriously come on, there's hundreds of countries in this world. You can't tell me there's only 3 of those 'good enough' to make some decent money.
It certainly does seem that way.
I suspect some UK locomotive is steaming ahead in our direction. Or at least something in a similar spirit.
certainly my thoughts
seem or steam
If it's not on the roadmap it's not happening, unless a plucky CM from the DTG team wants to give us any other information of course
Thanks for rubbing into our faces that there is a place that is supposed to tell us what DTG is working on, but then stuff is only put on this supposedly long-term thing called a "Roadmap" when it's a couple of weeks before release.
And yes, we are absolutely certain, because if it's it not on the roadmap.... you know the drill
From the Matt's comments about the work still required for steam on the Q&A I would be surprised to see anything on that front before Q2 2022.
Ooooh plot twist, Dammit you got me intrigued haha
If it’s not on the roadmap we might be working on it but it’s too soon to tell you about it yet because of reasons. I personally think they should put things on the roadmap like they used to, in their respective planning/production sections, and people will just have to understand that it might take a while to get through the system. This marketing led approach makes a mockery out of a roadmap, as they may as well go back to announcing things when they are a month from release like before. Get it on the roadmap.
For those wanting content for Australia, Canada, France etc what's to stop third-party developers in other countries coming to the table with their own DLC add-ons? Some of these countries have excellent software publishers who are at least as good as those in the UK and it's surely easier for them to do the research than, say, sending Matt across the world to Ayres Rock or wherever he would need to go to collect pictures of Australian ballast workings.
For example, Auran in Oz have produced some great stuff - could they not be persuaded to work with DTG if the money was right?
That would be unexpected, but fairly welcome - the Trainz developer hopping in on TSW2
And how would you feel if DTG were an Australian publisher? Also as has been said what is stopping an Australian publisher working with DTG or even making a rival game? Isn't BigAnt Australian? They made a good cricket game no?
Steam is the Roadmap no? I think Nat is hinting that the steam route will be in the UK.
I was thinking about the same thing, agree. The Roadmap is so vague no and some routes we have no idea DTG were working on them like these two US routes.
This. I keep saying this as well. No wonder currently the US/UK/DE trio is the most popular in TSW when they only produce content to these three countries.
As you've mentioned as well, there is huge, huge potential in Japanese, Chinese or Russian railway. Those three countries have great railways and many fans of them around the world. But currently every japanese, chinese or russian train fan will be stuck playing Densha de GO, BVE, Trainz or some other really old simulator where they actually have content for it. If TSW started offering them content, I bet they would jump onto the TSW bandwagon in an instant. In my opinion it's a big missed opportunity to not try to go for these countries.
And waiting for third-party developers constantly? Why? Sure, it's a bit more risk and investment than the 'good old' US/UK/DE trio, but things gotta start somewhere. You only have to research the basic systems and make most of the assets once. I mean look at Union Workshop's japanese routes for TS for example. They made most of their foilage, building and railway assets once, and have made like 4 routes with them, and all of them are great. Can't believe the leading train simulator studio is afraid to go out and try out new things, when certainly they could do a great job if they tried. Or at least cooperate with TS third parties and get help from them, even if they don't want to get into TSW all by themselves, they probably can at least help out.
This is where mods fill a void imo. If tools were made available to the modders DTG would see at an instant where the money would be. Obviously they would have to have confidence in their own abilities to compete with the modders, lots of talented people out there. Yes you do get some poor mods but also you get some good ones, free ones as well that amazingly can compete.
Not all mods are free also, I just favour choice. If DTG really did want a global world of trains they would have to have a system similar to TS1 but hopefully better. Perhaps DTG could get a cut but imagine the choice we would get. The routes that are not up to scratch would soon fall by the wayside especially when rated through the workshop imo it would be to everyone's benefit but as we know DTG does not see it this way and I doubt it would ever happen but we can dream no?
Apparently, the hassle of whatever DTG requires is stopping third-party developers. Not having public editors means they first have to sign of all kind of paperwork before even getting the chance of familiraizing themselves with the tools.
DTG doesn't need to send anyone around. I'm sure they can find contacts within the community to help them with things they can't do from their own UK (home) office.
I think Auran would preferebly stick developing for their own product, rather than work with a direct competitor in the niche market.
Mods have a few pretty big downsides;
There's not a single place you can find all of them, they'll be scattered throughout the web
They usually come with a list of dependencies, sometimes this list is ridicously long
You need to manual install/update them and save your serial keys, rather than having the benefits of a platform like Steam or Epic doing all that stuff automatically for you
Mods aren't supported on consoles, alienating a large portion of the player base and thus massively decreasing your potential market
Mods tend to rely on their own assets to make more assets, so you end up with having to buy their entire collection to get scenarios working properly
They also tend to "backdate" their catalogue, meaning if you update (and in TSW you may have no choice) you then have broken scenarios until you buy their updated asset packs / DLC / Enhancement packs
They can also decide to just not sell certain packs any more, even fairly major ones which people use in a multitude of their scenarios
It's much more likely a third party provider will leave the TSW scene, go bust, stop breathing... This orphans assets which in turn leads to broken scenarios / timetables
(all of the above have happened in the last year on TS1)
Agree, some of the German routes are quite compelling and unlike the UK Plasticstars, the modern German EMUs do give a bit of traction thrash.
Edit: The reluctance to move into other areas, I picked up on that after the “cough, cough” section about Rivet. Very much chicken and egg, but for the international market I would much rather see something from a fresh country than another DB commuter route with Dostos and 42x EMUs, nice though they are.
As regards Auran/N3V, bear in mind little of the content that bundles with Trainz or gets released as DLC is made by themselves. Pretty much all of it is third party. In any event, other than for route building with Surveyor, Trainz is not that good a simulator. Recent updates to the core programme (SP4) have been a disaster, such that they have had to put an installer for SP3 back on customers’ download page so they can revert.
As far as I've always understood, Trainz excels in its editing tools and user created content.
Trainz without a doubt has the best route building editor in Surveyor, combined with Transdem to import terrain data and mapping overlay. Far better than the TS editor particularly in regard to terrain painting. Where Trainz falls over is the driving experience. Very basic physics, no sort of timetable mode or even scenario capability as in TS or MSTS. After all this time there is still no AI signaller so you have to set the route yourself as you go. Fine trundling down a Russian branch line but not so good on the ECML! Cabs are in many cases basic, aliased to old content same as the sounds. I came across an EMU the other day which was aliased to the original Auran Alco diesel sounds.
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