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Tram Sim - A Nice Compliment To Tsw

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by mattdsoares, Oct 30, 2020.

  1. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    So, not a true direct competitor to TSW, Tram Sim launched on Steam today. It's being published by Aerosoft who have partnered with DTG in the past creating TS20xx routes like the excellent Berlin-Leipzig and Freiberg-Basel.

    Just picked it up and I have to say, it's a really good first go from a very small studio ViewApp. It's on UE4 like TSW. Right now there is only one route from Vienna, Austria and one tram, but that one route is pretty stunning in its accuracy. I've been to Vienna multiple times and ridden this line for a section and it definitely feels like the streets of Vienna. From the UI it's really obvious that they will release other trams and routes (likely if it sells well enough) and I've read that the devs have been really open about promoting modding.

    Anyone else pick it up? I think it's a really nice compliment to TSW as it covers an in demand area (trams) that TSW doesn't and DTG never has, and has no concrete plans to. Being UE4 there are also some similarities to the visual feel as well. Other than the keyboard commands being a bit different, it almost feels like it could be a new route for TSW.

    ***This is NOT a promotion of the game. I get nothing from talking about it. It just fits well with the TSW playerbase and am interested in folks thoughts and even ways TSW could implement some of the games ideas! ***
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2020
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  2. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Aerosoft? It tells me something... Didn't they make some train simulator? Probably not. Certainly not. Impossible.
    I'll take a look. Good info! o7
     
  3. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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  4. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Yeah :) Interesting story with their past collaboration. Together they could do BIG things. Oh yes. Not that I'm playing this, I swear!
     
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  5. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    I watched Squirrel's first look vid this morning and I kinda agree with him as it looks a bit overpriced atm based on what you get. I added it to my wishlist though and may pick it up during a sale and/or they add more content.
     
  6. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    Yea, I can certainly understand that, but I see it a little differently. If TSW came out with a new route, one of the Vienna Tram lines, it would be a pretty huge deal for a lot of folks, and it would sell for $29.99 USD, the normal DTG price. This is only $5 USD more than that and operates as the base platform for a whole new sim in addition to being a Vienna Tram line. Value with sims like this are always really tough and depends on the lens you view it through and what you compare it to. Compare it to a single TSW route, and I think the value is spot on. Compare it to the Base TSW2 which is $5 less and comes with 3 routes the value looks less good. Compare it to a big AAA non-sim PC game that goes for $60, and it looks like a terrible value.
     
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  7. Averrnor

    Averrnor Member

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    I am planning to take a look into it but not for the present price.
     
  8. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    £35 for a few miles of route? Surely people on this board should be jumping all over them the same as they do DTG
    I saw a stream of it yesterday and whilst the graphics are OK (usual UE4 reflection glitches notwithstanding) I can see the route being played probably two or three times before needing some variety
    That and the stream I watched had a glitch where the tram in front wouldn't move, so they literally "rammed" it (gently) and then bypassed the error of "you hit another tram" which caused the offender to disappear so they could progress...
     
  9. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Active Member

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    You can see the space for extra trams and routes to be added, but I also watched Squirrel's video and it did look worse than OMSI for jankiness. BTW on that same youtube account watch the OMSI 2 videos they are laugh out loud funny.
     
  10. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    From all the impressions I have watched and judging by comments on the steam forum; $34.99 also gets you a whole lot of bugs along with the lack of content. Waiting for a sale, additonal content & bug patches seems like the wisest choice at the moment. It's certainly got potential though
     
  11. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    Lots of potential! I'm having fun with it, but I'm sure come Christmas it will have SOME discount on the Steam winter sale and hopefully have some of the bugs worked out. Personally I haven't found them that troublesome, but I could just be lucky. I just hope it sells well enough to keep the devs fixing it up and making new content.
     
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  12. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Interesting video.
    Shows it is possible to have people in the streets.
    Goes a long way to remove the dead world of some train routes.
     
  13. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    Nice, but the graphics of the tram are far below what I am used in TSW2. It may be interesting in future.
     
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  14. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

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    Not my cup of tea but if they ever did one for Manchester then I'd probably buy it during a sale for something a little different.
     
  15. TSWx

    TSWx Active Member

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    A very nice sim indeed, comes with some bugs, (every game has those), a unique well modelled Vienna, lack of variety with only one line and tram, but can be repainted and modelled, plus some random activities. All in all I would give it a 7/10. The price is Ok comparing all the detail they included.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2020
  16. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    So it turns out that most (I can't claim all) of the buildings you see are pretty much the real buildings. Not just, oh there is a white building here in real life, but a 1:1 or close recreation including in some (not all) cases, the actual signs and businesses. I was about to take the tram and see the restaurant my wife and I ate at for our anniversary we spent in Vienna. Below is a screenshot I took of McDonalds and Wien & Co. at Schottentor in game. Below that is the Google Streetview of the same spot. Bugs or not, single line or not...this is pretty sweet. I have no issue with the price I paid for this level of detail. The full line takes about 45-55 minutes to drive, which is similar to most routes you'd get in TSW or TS20xx, so I don't fully understand the "it's only 1 line" or "it's short" . Plus...MICKEY D'S!

    McWien.png
    McWien Real.png
     
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  17. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Interesting. I wonder if McDs know their logo is in game and are OK with that...
     
  18. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    Well unless they just wanted to bully Aerosoft, they really wouldn't have case and their feels on the matter should be irrelvant. Uses like this have pretty consistently been classified as fair use.

    There seems to be a common misunderstanding in the public that the use of any trademark in anything commercial without a license or permission is trademark infringement. That's simply not the case. If it were, you'd see every documentary or movie be forced to scrub any logo or trademark from every single frame unless it was licensed. The makers of products compatible with other products would never be able to use the name of the product they're compatible with (no claiming the charger works with iPhone or the software works on Microsoft Windows. Every photo a photographer took and sold as art would have to be scrubbed of any background logos.

    That's just not necessary in this game's case, provided the use of the trademark would not cause the reasonable assumption that the product is being endorsed by the owner of the trademark. So if Aerosoft stuck a big old screenshot on the front of the box with the McDonalds logo clearly in the background, McDonald's may have a case because there could be the reasonable conclusion that its use in that way suggests McDonald's is endorsing the product. The fact that there are so many real locations like this McDonalds in the game further would work in Aerosoft's favor as it is clear they are simply accurately representing a map of a real world location rather that using the McDonald's trademark to promote their product or imply endorsement.

    This is also how you can have products (and they are products) like Google Maps, Streetview, Google Earth, etc exist. Google does not need to go and get permission of every trademark holder of every sign in a 3d reconstruction of a map. Also the same way you can fly in Microsoft Flight Simulator which uses Bing Maps to show 3d photogrammetry of many cities which includes logos and all sorts of trademarks. Heck, if Trademark law didn't allow for fair use like that, GPS maps with directions would be a whole lot different. You wouldn't be able to ask Google for directions to the closest Walmart or ASDA because Google wouldn't be able to use that name in their product. When you looked up the location in Google maps they wouldn't even be able to say there was a Walmart or ASDA there or show a photo of the front of it!

    While Dovetail hasn't used logos like McDonald's in their games they HAVE used trademarked property without permission under the exact same type of fair use. Any NYC route that depicts the Chrysler Building. The Chicago based Racetrack route for TS20xx which had the Sears/Willis Tower. Both of these buildings are actually tademarked, but depicting them in video game versions of a realistic Chicago and NYC are very obvious fair use.

    There are numerous relevant examples in this article:

    https://www.tbennettlaw.com/createp...rks-in-film-print-video-games-and-other-media
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2020
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  19. Quentin

    Quentin Member

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    The buildings are impressively accurate (at least, it impresses me), I wonder how they do it - presumably not by making their own model of each building. Perhaps they have a clever way to scrape the data from Google and/or Bing maps. I can see that it's a bit easier for a TramSim rather than a TrainSim, because in most cases a simple 2D model of the street frontage is all that's needed.
     
  20. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I think Squirrel is probably right - should have come out as early access in the £15 - £20 range. It all looks a bit clean and too perfect from what I saw in the video.

    I would like to see TSW get a tram route, now we have the tube. My personal choice would be Blackpool, even better in the 1980's when the system was still running with heritage trams using trolley poles.
     
  21. Winzarten

    Winzarten Active Member

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    Most of it is texture work, the models itself look to be quite basic, and, as in every city, most of the normal resident buildings in Vienna are very similar. Even the more inconic buildings, like the Otto Wagner Pavillon at Karlsplatz, look quite simple, but still very recognizable. Considering the amount of work required for modeling downtown city, this is to be expected.

    That said, this breaths Vienna, and I immediately recognized the places I've walked several times IRL. Very impressive what they have done.

    As a whole, it looks more like a early access, as it still looks to be quite rough around the edges (some messages still being presented in german, obviously missing tutorials, missing atleast basic menu sounds...etc).

    I hope they stick with it, becasue the foundation looks good. It just need additional routes and trams inventory and a few bugfixes

    But right now it is just that one line, in clear weather, with one tram, and that can get boring pretty fast. Considering that it is more expensive than TSW route addons, and wwith limited activations for one machine (what year is it????), this becomes a very hard buy at this point.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2020
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  22. Shaun123

    Shaun123 Active Member

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    I’d love to see Blackpool or Karlsruhe next if they carry on with more DLC.
     
  23. Averrnor

    Averrnor Member

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    I have deja vu when I see that DLCs are planned so early even when base product is not polished enough...

    "Furthermore you can already look forward to a new video about the upcoming developments! Among other things, it will be about which updates you can expect in the future and which new features are already being worked on!

    And pssst... we will reveal something right now! "Weichenkrücke" and IBIS extension are already planned for mid-November!"

    Hopefully, the fixes will come first.
     
  24. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately seems to be par for the course with simulators. I think the idea of viewing them as a platform rather than a single finished game lends itself to released unfinished products.
     
  25. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    Since my preference is for freight, especially switching, I wouldn't buy this sim at any price. In this case, I also find the graphics pitiful in comparison with DTG's railway sims.
     
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  26. TSWx

    TSWx Active Member

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    I agree with your first point. Ok fine with me no need buying it. But first of all if you don't own the game and argue about graphics [ ] without having actually played it once is idiotic.
     
  27. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    A quick look at the easily available preview was enough for this "idiot" to make up his mind. What else would be needed? The graphics, especially of the trolley itself, look cheap, cheesy, and cartoon-ish. Perhaps that's the way the real thing looks, but visually it holds no appeal whatsoever for me.
     
  28. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    There has been plenty of posts on here in the past "bashing" DTG by people who either don't own the sim or the piece of DLC they are referring too and that apparently is okay!
     
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  29. TSWx

    TSWx Active Member

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    Yes it's Ok, but it is better if actually owning it "no matter what game". As those contain billions and trillions of different pictures rather than only comparing some. So I hope you do get my point. Only with some intel you cannot talk about it that's for sure.
     
  30. TSWx

    TSWx Active Member

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    Those graphics are as good as TSW and when comparing it Tramsim places "real" companys like mcdonals on the scenery. So it's somehow more authentic and closer to reality. So I can confirm that this is somehow tsw reality as I was there on holiday and actually drove in such a "cartoonish" trolley. That probably means you don't like Vienna's "cheesy" style. But the graphics are alright.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2020
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  31. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    The Playstation 2 game The Getaway featured a photo realistic depiction of central London which featured brand names on the buildings. If I recall the publishers got into trouble with some of these brands.
     
  32. CC Johnson

    CC Johnson Active Member

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    Just wanted to mention that fair use it a common law concept that doesn't exist in Germany (where Aerosoft is, afaik) and, to my knowledge, in most of Europe (including Austria). Something I see quite often mentioned from English native speakers.
    If they didn't get a licence, and McDonald's (Germany) has a bad day, they can land in hot water rather quickly.

    mattdsoares
    Also, you're pretty much wrong about everything you wrote, too much to get into detail, at least when pertaining to german law and therefore to Aerosoft. Just look at the state of Streetview in Germany and all the problems and legal battles they had and lost since it started. I made them blurr my house quite easily just because I felt like it. So many people did that that they mostly gave up in many places.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2020
  33. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    If they do it good, we could have really nice tram routes also in TSW2. The second pic looks amazing, by the way. It appears they have most buildings in photoreal quality.

    Cheers
     
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