Tsc - The Santa Fe Experience Awaits You!

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG Jamie, Jul 21, 2022.

  1. DTG Jamie

    DTG Jamie Staff Member

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  2. anthony.wood

    anthony.wood Active Member

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    It wouldn't be DTM locos if not complete with missing textures for the couplers. Again. Refunded.
     
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  3. torfmeister

    torfmeister Guest

    I don't believe it (yes I do... sigh). Again. Thanks, will stay away from it. Or maybe purchase & refund will put more pressure on the devs which is apparently needed, so I might do that.

    Clear case of copying a GeoPcDx from a different loco without adjusting texture paths.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2022
  4. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    Still have those odd couplers on the F3 and U28CG.
    Screenshot_20220721-074843_Chrome.jpg
    Screenshot_20220721-074857_Chrome.jpg

    Also, saw this pointed out somewhere else, but the U28CG has the later Freight Colored Black Numberboards, not the white ones when they were still the 3 number series.
    Screenshot_20220721-074903_Chrome.jpg
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    1755.1495894165.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2022
  5. LPSimulation

    LPSimulation Member

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    Wish they'd ditch the ugly bright white flares, they really aren't a good look.

    That's only scratching the surface though.. could go on and on about why this pack is terrible
     
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  6. torfmeister

    torfmeister Guest

    Are these supposed to be Type-F interlocking couplers?
     
  7. anthony.wood

    anthony.wood Active Member

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    It's been a recurring issue on every pack of his since at least the SD45T-2.

    Hard to find if the only people testing it already have all of his other stuff since it's bound to be cloned from one of the other packs.

    At this point, just make a common product folder that all the reused and new common textures will go into. Never run into the issue again as a developer.
     
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  8. LPSimulation

    LPSimulation Member

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    seems as if they are in game, which is totally incorrect since they didn't have type-fs in reality[​IMG]
     
  9. torfmeister

    torfmeister Guest

    Or simply test in an environment containing only this pack. There should be strict rules for beta testing.
     
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  10. LPSimulation

    LPSimulation Member

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    Yes. And the distinct lack of it here is rather appalling.
     
  11. Latios Gaming

    Latios Gaming New Member

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    Do you have any plans to work some magic and give the major parts of this pack a glow-up to the standard it should have been held to?
     
  12. LPSimulation

    LPSimulation Member

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    As much as I'd love to I made myself a personal promise to never touch anything DTM/HIS/TBT again due to how appalling they are visually.
     
  13. Blazin

    Blazin Well-Known Member

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    Judging from all the negative feedback I’ve seen, I will not be buying this pack. It’s a shame since I’m such a big fan of Santa Fe. I was really looking forward to this but it doesn’t seem to be very good. I’m disappointed. :(
     
  14. LPSimulation

    LPSimulation Member

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    It's a shame, since we really don't have any good ATSF stock anymore, not since VRC anyway. Holding out for those JointedRail SD40-2s though.
     
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  15. dragoner

    dragoner Well-Known Member

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    "How to drop quality in just 1 year. HIS edition"
     
  16. Latios Gaming

    Latios Gaming New Member

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    That’s fair. Shame they don’t hire you to fix their poor visuals.
     
  17. dragoner

    dragoner Well-Known Member

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    LP can employ himself faster and make a better pack than HIS.
     
  18. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    Well, the reviews are in...... Wonder if we'll see a patch to fix this pack.
    yikes.png
     
  19. torfmeister

    torfmeister Guest

    I have to admit (feel like a sinner almost) I've purchased it in the hope the issues will be fixed. It's clearly not 2022 standard, Schnauzapowahz' video pretty much sums it up. At least the brake script isn't bad. I've not encountered a missing coupler texture, only an ugly blank/silver one. There really is better repaints for free out there.

    I think it's important we as customers make it clear what we expect from commercial DLC.

    Latios Gaming LPSimulation is right in stating his opinion, your "well do it yourself if you think you can do it better" style answer is ridiculous.

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 31, 2022
  20. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    I mean its bad when a VRC model from way back in the day is more accurate and correct than a model produced in 2022, wish they would come back, the 3 DLCs they have on Steam are very top notch. (Though the Chessie U30C textures are showing their age)
     
  21. torfmeister

    torfmeister Guest

    So I'm diving into texture editing right now, DIY. Removing the ugly X-headlight flares and desaturating the main texture of the U28. (Last graphics program I really used was... DeluxePaint on the Amiga :D )

    I know TSC is old and we have to be thankful for people still developing content. I wouldn't call anything DTM has delivered in the last years as being "developed". The F3 pack was rightfully criticised and then a fix followed. I'd prefer less but higher developed content, as AP and Searchlight and Smokebox prove what's possible - but it's still "luxury" for us and not standard unfortunately.
     
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  22. LPSimulation

    LPSimulation Member

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    I don't think Latios was trying to be rude, since I do actually create content for this game and people seem to like the stuff I do
     
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  23. dragoner

    dragoner Well-Known Member

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    Probably because I am not using any extension or one of the reviews was deleted. But to me, It doesnt show 'Mostly Negative (10)', Instead It says '9 user reviews'.
     
  24. ex_railwayman

    ex_railwayman Active Member

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    Yes, because I think you need to have 10 reviews, or, more, on a Steam product to obtain a negative or positive number of reviews. So, at this present moment in time it does state '9 user reviews', but, as soon as more responses are added it will then change to ''mostly negative'', or, ''mostly positive'', or, average, status. The easiest thing is to scroll down the page and you can see there are 7 thumbs down out of 9 reviews, so far, however, I haven't read them all, so, unsure if they are legitimate criticisms, or, just silly trolls trying to make a name for themselves.
    I understand that the guys responsible for this pack's development have seen some of the feedback on the Railworks America forum and will act to rectify anything of major concern.

    Cheerz. Steve.
     
  25. dragoner

    dragoner Well-Known Member

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    They are legitimate criticisms. Atleast most of them
     
  26. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    Seems like 1 of the reviews disappeared overnight.
     
  27. dragoner

    dragoner Well-Known Member

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    was it negative or positive?
     
  28. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    It was a positive review that disappeared
     
  29. torfmeister

    torfmeister Guest

    How should I know? Reading it with that knowledge now gives it a different taste. Fair enough.
     
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  30. dragoner

    dragoner Well-Known Member

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    Either way, someone has posted another positive review, a rather ridicolous one.
     
  31. Latios Gaming

    Latios Gaming New Member

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    No, I was not trying to be rude. I know you could do a better job than DTM, not that it’s setting the bar very high lol, but you know you’re talented.
     
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  32. torfmeister

    torfmeister Guest

    Just a few minutes into "El Capitan Eastbound, Pt. 1". Braking the F3 with full dynamics, then applying some airbrakes just to find the brake script is stuck in an infinite loop. Tried to go into emergency, yet the PCS light is off. Brake is not notched suddenly but doesn't respond to any input - moving the handle does not change ER pressure. Endless air hissing loop. Can't move the Reverser anymore, this is what I got. Stuck on the rails... Yes I know how to reset a tripped PCS - not working here (as it is not even tripped)

    Can you see the discrepancy between the F5 HUD which shows a depressurized brakepipe and emergency state and the gauges? Hmm.

    So far only very few developers have managed to do a working brake script... for a game engine that's 15 years old...

    I'd prefer not using a scripted VirtualBrake but simply controlling the core TrainBrakeControl over a bad script. Unfortunately the scripts are compiled...:(. The old F7 was more reliable, no script, Release, Initial Reduction, Hold, Apply. Percentage display so you know where your handle is without looking down. This script has no feel, you're likely to overshoot as you do not see when you reach the next notch, and have no idea how long to hold the key.

    Though most of the time I think I'm being a rational analytic person... now I'm angry. The troubles with North American loco brake scripts are neverending and are really putting me off. Is it rocket science? Why does it work so smoothly in Run 8 Train Simulator? Yeah, Run 8 probably spoiled me just because of the fact that it is a REAL simulator. And yes the landscape is better in TS. Over and out.

    -- Disappointed customer who should've known better...

    11.png
     
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  33. 21c164fightercommand

    21c164fightercommand Well-Known Member

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    Refunded already.

    So many issues: El Capitan doesn't have passengers, night lighting, taillights, the famous illuminated drumhead ....
    Couplers are a mess too, and the wrong type, some missing brake hoses ....
    Sounds are just the same old rehashed Kuju ....
    Pure white headlights with glaring textures ....
    Poor detailing and texturing, typical of DTM's regression over the last couple of years .,..
    His kitted up the F3/F7 from who knows how many sources, just look at the file structure, what a mess ....
    The U28C never existed in this shape on Santa Fe ....

    The GP units are OK and the freight cars are nice though.

    F-units with their bulldog noses, there are different models, some have the nose visible from the cab, some not, any consensus on this? What was the typical prototype engineer's view through the windshield?

    His/DTM/DTG over at RWA are a curious lot. Since His' Dolzall is now a RWA moderator, there is a clear commercial interest in suppressing criticism/negativity towards His products already going on for a while. As is the practice on His' Facebook.
    RWA is turning into a 'Buzz Baxter and the fawning fanbois' community more and more.

    TSC needs some fresh influx of competent and caring developers with a higher standard in USA DLC.
    Given DTG is now more interested in TSW2/3/4/5, the Classic franchise will left to wither more and more probably. VRC/SSI had/have great stuff, but then, why doesn't such a large and important market not have more developers? Is there no money to be made in providing US content?

    Vote with your wallet on DTM/His products and perhaps they'll get the message. Has any DTM product ever been upgraded?
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2022
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  34. torfmeister

    torfmeister Guest

    21c164fightercommand

    I noticed what you mentioned on the RWA forums, Schnauzapowahz criticised the DLC from a technical point of view and RWA members attacked him personally - not addressing any of the issues he mentioned.

    As for the Geeps - they're good. Michael Stephan's work.

    DTM... they never even fixed the GP35 coupler issues.

    HIS. I am disappointed because I appreciate all his scenarios and the Mountain Sub.

    As for the F3 engineer position, I've adjusted that to the left (centered between the two brake gauges) and a bit higher. My right knee was hurting, if you know what I mean.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 31, 2022
  35. 21c164fightercommand

    21c164fightercommand Well-Known Member

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    Run LogMate and be amazed over the number of errors, scripting errors, modeling errors, track laying errors ...

    I believe DTG commissions their USA DLC from this small number of individuals, which I believe are all from Argentine. Perhaps USA based developers charge more?

    About the F-units, I believe the nose should be visible from the cab, it adds a little 'depth' to the view from the cab.

    Anyway, chance of His/DTM/DTG patching this pack? Or will their workflow, train of thought and streak of errors be continued in more of future His' routes and Santa Fe packs 02, 03 and so forth?

    Somehow and sometime, critical or negative reviews must come to their attention I'd think. The TSC franchise for USA players can be kept alive by new content that raises above the mediocre that has been poured out over the last couple of years.
    The UK scene is still very much alive and we are pleased with high quality DLC from our many creaters like Bossman, Victory Works, Steam Sounds Supreme, Armstrong Powerhouse and more.
     
  36. 21c164fightercommand

    21c164fightercommand Well-Known Member

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    No need to get angry over spelling errors in Argentina ... DTM, Reppo and another one who did the GP30's a couple of years back are all from South America? Two promising developers of steam locomotives are from Brazil.

    More interesting is the answer to the question of the presence/absence of USA based developers?

    Can a person live off the proceedings of creating models, or is it more of a hobby, kitchen table small business?
     
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  37. Nacho

    Nacho Well-Known Member

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    Yep I deleted it because effectively DTM is a fellow countryman, sorry about that. Well about making a living on this I think only DTG guys do, or bigger companies like Aerosoft (maybe JT too?).
     
  38. 21c164fightercommand

    21c164fightercommand Well-Known Member

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    Well, creating steam locomtives from scratch, that is from old blueprints, erection drawings, books and photographs, perhaps museum visits all add up in $$$, a good set of erection drawings will already be a 3 figure sum. Research on a high fidelity model can already cost you a thousand before you even started your Blender. Is there a sufficient market to recuperate all these expenses? Ask Smokebox, who did the excellent UP locomotives ....

    But US Diesel locomotives are sort of kits, the F-unit carbody shape didn't change much during it's production run, neither did the Blomberg trucks and most of the detail parts. Only the cabins evolved, but here also the same parts can be used. Same for the GP series. With a good set of basic 3D parts and exterior models, one can kit up any EMD locomotive, which is exactly what DTM does.

    Then why is the outcome so variable in quality and getting poorer in my eyes?

    3D modeling is a skill, texturing and mixing sound are an art, scripting is like black magic, can a single person be excellent in all three?
     
  39. dragoner

    dragoner Well-Known Member

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    Attacking anyone personally is never a good idea and will just cause more drama.
     
  40. torfmeister

    torfmeister Guest

    Who says it has to be done by one person? And I think the main reason is the pressure to permanently push out new DLC for the masses to keep milking the TS cow. It's always a quick release and then patching later. Look how long it took for Tehachapi to be fixed. And then there's obvioulsly a total lack of QA on DTG's side. Presumably too costly.

    Then take a look at DTG's NS GP60. High quality modelling and texturing, exterior and interior, very detailed. You can tell it was done by professional modellers. Though it has a collision box offset that can prevent you from coupling cars to the front, fix is uploaded here. But a very fine loco.

    And even the old RSC GP9 pack - though lacking features that were introduced later (actual loco light sources - can be updated easily) - the models are well done, well textured and still look great - there is no bugs to be found.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 26, 2022
  41. 21c164fightercommand

    21c164fightercommand Well-Known Member

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    His is already issuing a patch note on RWA.

    So much for copy-cut&paste together your locomotives from other people's assets, LOL.
     
  42. highironsims#4326

    highironsims#4326 New Member

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    Santa Fe Classic Pack Update
    We are aware an issue exists with the brakes on the EMD F3 in the ATSF Retro Pack 01. The cause has already been identified (a software configuration error) and will be issuing a patch promptly.
    In the meantime, for those of you who already have DTM's Union Pacific F3, there is a relatively simple "quick fix":
    1. Go to C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\RailWorks\Assets\HIS\ATSFPack01 and create a subfolder called RailVehicles\Diesel\F3\Warbonnet.
    2. Go to C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\RailWorks\Assets\DTM\F3 UP and open the file named F3 UPAssets.ap (this is, basically, a zipfile and there are several utilities that can open it, such as WinZip, WinRAR, 7zip, etc.). Extract RailVehicles\Diesel\F3_Engine_UP\EngineScript.out and place it in the Warbonnet folder you created in step 1.
    While strenuous efforts are made prior to release of a product to ensure that everything works as it should, it's unfortunate that sometimes errors such as this escape the net. We apologize for any inconvenience caused and thank you for your understanding.
     
  43. Schnauzahpowahz

    Schnauzahpowahz Well-Known Member

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    Thats how it goes over there. Years ago it was a decent place to discuss and share - now its just a handful of cronies that bash & ban/remove comments. Its a shame. Ive not been on the forums in awhile over there for I know I'll be attacked simply for having an opinion, or the nerve to voice one. They can have their little clubhouse. Which is even worse now from what i hear considering Gary aka HIS is also a mod now. They always bash a criticize but dont allow that from others. Aka they can have an opinion but you cant.

    Regarding the pack, its a shame. Seems as though Gary rushes these devs to get their wares ready for the next "(insert name here) retro pack". At the end of the day they care not - hes making money, they're making money and dtg is making money. Its literally zero effort = profits irregardless of reviews and sales numbers
     
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  44. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    Thats because the GP60 was done by Reppo as contract work, he did alot of recent locos for DTG (U36C, AC4400CW, SD9043MAC) however these locos still have some issues, and don't see as much love as his own work that he releases on his own.

    For example the UP AC4400CW he did for Tehachapi as a bunch of modeling and texture issues.
     
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  45. torfmeister

    torfmeister Guest

    That's probably due to the deadlines you're committed to as a contract developer - rather different conditions than developing on your own. Many workshop and freeware routes are of much higher quality than some DLC routes. People can develop, improve, and release when it's finished.

    I do admire Reppo's work. But sometimes you literally see the devs could not finish the job. Alaska is a good example.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 26, 2022
  46. 21c164fightercommand

    21c164fightercommand Well-Known Member

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    Artim, the RWA owner, asked for financial support a while back, my guess is Dolzall stepped in on certain conditions, and we start to find out some of those conditions. Most of USA DLC of late is from Dolzall's His and partners.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2022
  47. torfmeister

    torfmeister Guest

    So what we have here is personal loyalty overruling objective criticism?
     
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  48. hayward.john48

    hayward.john48 Well-Known Member

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    That’s potentially libellous. Many RWA members including me made and continue to make financial contributions so that even greater numbers can download huge amounts of content for free. There is literally nothing in the world totally free, someone has to pay sometime. Your guess is based on what?
     
  49. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    Visually these things do have some issues, and the F3 needs its update. The scenarios however are actually pretty good. Not being a Santa Fe aficionado I can look past a lot of the visuals and enjoy playing with the locomotives in the scenarios but I do understand the frustrations I see in the reviews and here.
     

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