Tsw 3 - An Insult To The Tsw Community

Discussion in 'Train Sim World Discussion' started by Typhomat, Aug 10, 2022.

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  1. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Yep, I'm in that boat too. Don't do US or DE. Don't care for steam (never have). The extension to Ashford is one stop over about 15 minutes away (so might drive it once to see the tunnel through bluebell hill, but the rest is alongside the M20 (yawn)) and the Dartford bit is 7 miles of stop everywhere. Maybe they've recreated the Burger King at Stone Crossing for a bit of colour...
     
  2. karlack26

    karlack26 Active Member

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    They updated the a10 model for free, not to mention they were also giving the module bug fixes and updates to the flight model. The thing came out in 2010.
    So 8 years later they give it a big overhaul and charge for some of that over haul.
    Then those that already owned the module got a discounted to the upgrade.
    Also one does not have to purchase the a10 to get access to future content or to get fixes to content you already own.
    Are they perfect no but it's definitely a better business model.
     
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  3. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    On this point...
    DTG are giving you a TSW3 license to all TSW2 content you have a license for. they will do this for as long as TSW2 DLC are on sale (so if there's a TSW2 DLC sale down the road and you buy that DLC on low price you'll get the TSW3 version too)
    Any updates will then be against TSW3 content only.
    So there won't be "fixes against content you already own" because technically you own two versions of the same content, but only one version is being updated.
    Be vexed if you think DTG should keep updating TSW2 content in perpetuity, but I don't know any software company that does that for too long once the new version is out.
     
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  4. dangerousdave

    dangerousdave Well-Known Member

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    People can argue all they want that tsw3 is a rip off but is it? Your getting 2 new routes fairly large ones, and a extension to sehs, that's what we are paying for. Forget the fixes and new features, as far as I'm concerned they come with tsw3.

    If dtg announced tsw3 with no new routes just fixes and some new features then yeah I would be quite cross but they haven't.

    All I've seen is complaint after complaint about tsw2 tbh I've complained alot about it because its crap! Dtg have obviously been taking notes and promised something better! And people are complaining about it? You ain't even played it yet!

    Do movie critics miss the premiere then give it bad reviews?
     
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  5. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Not going to mention Youtube or Tiktok movie reviews... LOL
     
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  6. dangerousdave

    dangerousdave Well-Known Member

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    Lol
     
  7. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Summer 2020 all over again!

    Reading all these threads, there's different people saying the same things and some of the same people still saying the same things!

    Maybe we haven't had Covid, there is no cost of living crisis or war in Ukraine. It's all just been a dream and Bobby Ewing is in the shower again!

    Wash, rinse, repeat for TSW4 in two years time!
     
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  8. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Cause people still buy them. The developers will hype up the game only for it to effectively be the same game with minor changes to reflect the current season year. For instance the driver career mode on F1 22 hasn't changed since F1 2019. Sure you get the 2022 cars but the career experience has effectively been the same. Codemasters introduced F1 life which has received mostly negative reviews with some calling it unnecessary. I mean who plays a racing game to decorate a house they can't even walk around. The pirelli hotlap didn't get high marks because people don't play an F1 game just to drive supercars.

    So while yes, these games sell, that's down to the fact that people still buy them regardless whether that's down to them being fans of the sport or being new players who have never played the game before. For instance I love WRC 10 but I have never played the WRC games before and the experience is quite similar to it's predecessor and that game has gotten mixed reviews.

    Another problem is lack of competition. Due to the fact that there is a lack of competition due to sports companies handing out exclusive licenses to a developer, it allows the developer to just make rehashes of the same game they released. Since there is no alternatives, people will buy the only option they have. If there was competition, it would force developers to make better games and add new things rather than minor changes.

    Just because a game sells, it doesn't mean it is a good game
     
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  9. stewartforgie

    stewartforgie Member

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    See my first post in this thread.
     
  10. roysto25

    roysto25 Well-Known Member

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    Just catching up on this thread - "Actually, I like " Centre de Formation "" - in the interest of diversity, can we also have 'canolfan hyfforddi"?
     
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  11. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    This is not what I asked and what I would recommend. Act more is the normal procedure for TS. Make the core update free, so you no longer need to maintain TSW2 and it will avoids loads of confusion and irritated customers because they buy the wrong version of the game. People can pay for the routes as a DLC bundle. It even can be the same price. Within a few months the game will be much cheaper and will be sold for maybe Euro 20 to attract as many new players, so why this? It does not make sense.
     
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  12. stewartforgie

    stewartforgie Member

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    Oh how I wish SCS would release a train sim!
     
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  13. karlack26

    karlack26 Active Member

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    They are not giving me anything I have to spend 59 Candian dollars to update the stuff I already bought. Any future dlc I may have wanted, I now have to pay for tsw3 first.
    I just bought tsw2 in July with spirit of steam.
    Like a few days before the tsw3 leak.
    If I knew the software I bought would be obsolete 2 months I would not have bought it.

    I bought tsw2 primarily for steam content. Thinking Sprit of steam was the first of many dlc for steam.
    Turns out its the first and last steam dlc for train sim world 2.

    All the dlc I bought was in a broken unfinished state.
    But I was informed there were update coming so I did not refund this stuff.
    Like the Peninsula line. Which I can't run with out it crashing.

    It's was on the preservation crew list.
    I decided I can wait saving sorta works.

    Guess what tsw3 is geting those updates now before tsw2.

    I want the content I already paid for to work properly.

    I don't care about volumetric clouds and lighting. When the track sleepers can't even render 10 feet away. Look at that photo below.
    That shity ground texture clipping through the tracks and what that photo does not capture is how it moves.
     

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    Last edited: Aug 11, 2022
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  14. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Nope. You pay $59c for the new content in TSW3
    If you had zero TSW2 content you would pay the same
    Any TSW2 content that they give you a license for (they don't legally have to) is on them.
    So yes, they are GIVING YOU a license for any existing TSW2 content licenses you have. You are not paying for those TSW3 licenses, only the license for TSW3 itself and whatever TSW3 DLC you buy at that point.

    And that absolutely sucks, it really does. It must pain you heartily and sympathy is due. But really no different to buying a car one week then seeing the same in sales the next week.

    The rest of your comment? I couldn't agree more. DTG (morally) should only publish things which work and if they acknowledge they don't they should make them work in a decent time period, say 30 days. If they can't do that then the product isn't good and things could be done (partial refunds etc)
    Unfortunately that's not how DTG work (which again sucks)
     
  15. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Why would making the update free change the need to support what was? If they just replaced what was with what will be people will still get annoyed with differing versions and so on. That makes no programatic sense.
     
  16. Kobebeef

    Kobebeef Active Member

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    fanboys for life, never changes lol
     
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  17. karlack26

    karlack26 Active Member

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    A car is a physical thing

    Softwares is not, there are decisions made to do this.

    I have spent probably over 400 dollars on Paradox studios games.
    And I only ever bought each of their base games once. Because they support the same game for years and each dlc is a mix of free and paid content.

    Then when they do a new game it is a new game.
    Crusader kings 2 and 3 released nearly ten years apart. 3 is a vastly different game.


    The 60-70 bucks I spent on dtg now feel like a waste.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2022
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  18. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    The sale is the point of the matter. Whether it's a car, a software package or an apricot, you buy it at one price that's what you choose. You se it reduced a short time later it sucks, but it's what it is.

    Not sure why though. Whatever you spent on the DLC for TSW2 you will get ALSO in TSW3 (and if SEHS you get a better version, SoS you get the updated lighting). So your $70c investment still carries on in TSW2, but you also get them in TSW3 with whatever that brings.
     
  19. Thorgred

    Thorgred Active Member

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    there will always be fanboys (me) and people who will complain about almost everything
    it still is a great game
    it is not for nothing that i have 1474 hours into TSW2
    the only drawback is that some bugs just take too long to get fixed
    i am looking forward to TSW3 and i do not mind starting all over with my progress
    all new achievs please
    and not any of those old ones from TSW2 please
     
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  20. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    To add to this, I wonder what will happen to loco dlc prices since they don't have to be attached to a route along with routes that come with a train. Will it be cheaper. I am curious about the DLC prices
     
  21. Freddele

    Freddele Member

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    Hello!

    After it's announcement, I'm not sure what to think. Certainly there are improvements, but there was no need for a new game yet. (Example of the ETS2 game with updates for bugs, installation of new lighting. It's free but the community supports them by purchasing the paid map expansions or DLC!!). Why DTG still doesn't do that more for early gamers.

    In terms of content, apart from another American itinerary and an extension. The novelty remains the line from Germany. Even if at the level of freight and passenger service, the Gotthard line from Arth Goldau to Bellinzona before the opening of the Gotthard base tunnel remains a reference and a great spectacle.

    Finally, and I repeat myself, DTG now creates more than a simple simulation game compared to the very first opus TSW1. What made me decide to buy this game was the fact of refueling the machine with diesel, turned on the turntable, sorting wagons, loading them, unloading them etc etc..
    Today we are content to make a train (predominantly passenger) from A to B and that's all and too bad.

    Freddy
     
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  22. karlack26

    karlack26 Active Member

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    I should not have spend more money to fix the things I already spent money on. Or to receive those fixes first.

    Why does evey one here keep telling me it's good and I should be happy to spend more money on things I don't want spend money on.
    I don't want any of the new lines.
    I want the content I already paid for to be finished.
    Which I was told it would be.
    Or else I would have refunded this game before the two hours was up.


    I spent that 60-70 dollars on things I thought would be getting updated and supported for a few years.
     
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  23. dangerousdave

    dangerousdave Well-Known Member

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    It was said that fixes for tsw2 are coming.
     
  24. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Or Microsoft. That would be the dream
     
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  25. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    They abandoned their first one soon after release. There was one update from what I recall. MSTS would have been forgotten about within a couple of years and just become a cheap game in the bargain bin, if it hadn't been for third party developers and a large freeware community which developed on sites like UKTS. And look what happened with MSTS2!

    DTG and Auran have their faults but at least they have continually developed their sims and have fixed problems in the 14 and over 20 years respectively they have existed.
     
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  26. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Twice!

    That's not to say I wouldn't welcome more competition for the genre but with a relatively small player base it is probably hard to justify the investment starting out. As someone commented in Off Topic, SimRail 2021 seems to have dropped off the radar. DRS is very good but only has a small team working on it. The editor is not quite in a useable state. Open Rails is good for running old MSTS content. Derail Valley, novelty wore off quite quickly and just the one map quickly got boring. The World Of Subways games (I believe another one is in planning) had great potential but very buggy and the physics were just laughable. Trainz is the best for route building with Surveyor and Transdem, but it's upgrade course is more infamous for Emperor's new clothes than DTG's current mission and the driving experience largely remains unfulfilling. Oh and Run 8, very good but oh dear those graphics at times look worse than early MSTS. I tried making a bit more progress over Donner Pass last night on the rebound from uninstalling TSW2 (see little point in keeping it going regardless of what I do about TWS3) and had to come off after about 10 minutes. Looks awful and they haven't cured the "jinking" that starts to occur going round curves.

    To misquote Tolkien, what we need is, "One train game to bind them all."
     
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  27. karlack26

    karlack26 Active Member

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    Some things maybe fixed and some of those things will come after the fixes for the same content for game that was not even announced when I bought this game.

    Save games will never be fixed for tsw2

    Direct input support will never come for tsw2.

    The draw distance will never be fixed for tsw2.

    The flickering TAA when stationary will never be fixed.

    The stuttering mess will never be fixed.
    The list could go on.

    I unknowingly bought a early access game and this one I don't get a finished game at the end
     
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  28. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    I would consider TSW 2 effectively abandoned from this point onwards. Same happened to TSW 2020 when TSW 2 was announced. Any work will go into the corresponding DLC's for TSW 3 and it's a toss up as to whether any of the bugs or issues with the TSW 2 version of a route will be ported to the TSW 3 version.

    Alternatively, anything too difficult like a reliable working save game function appears to be, will get binned.
     
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  29. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I would say that DTG have developed TSC as best they could, given the limitations of the core engine. Trainz I have no experience with.

    But the development of TSW through, now, three iterations has been agonizingly slow. We are just now getting fundamental features like dynamic weather, routes of more than 50 miles or so and some serious lighting improvements (we think ), all of which should have come years ago. And we are actually going backwards in one very basic attribute (save game ). And we still have many problems in TSW2 as can be seen in these pages.

    A cynic would suggest that TSW3 is a kind of smokescreen or a sweeping under the rug of existing problems, by issuing what they would like to call a " new game ". We don't know if any of the TSW problems will be addressed. Frankly, DTG is not great at keeping promises about bug fixes.

    Don't get me wrong, I still love the game. But, especially with events in the last few days ( withdrawing the save game function is a real kick in the head for players like me who have busy lives ), my confidence in the ability of this current set of personnel to bring the game forward has taken a severe downturn. The hand on the tiller is decidedly unsteady.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2022
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  30. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    We don't even know for certain who is Project Leader. I thought it was Matt, but his picture and profile seem to have vanished from the Management and Senior Staff "rogues gallery" on the corporate part of the site.

    It would also behove someone fairly senior in the company (with no disrespect to JD, Sam, Jamie, Alex or any of the others who respond occasionally) to come on to assuage and deal with all the doubts* in a timely order, not wait for stage managed streams which I for one haven't got the time to watch whether live or retrospectively on You Tube.

    * And preferably with a, "Yes we have listened to concerns about the Save game. It was a mistake to remove it and will now be re-enabled for TSW3 while improvements are worked on." Those are the words I want to hear Matt, for you to secure my £40 order.
     
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  31. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Good spot.

    Apparently Adam is Senior Producer for TSW 2? Wasn't that Matt's job title?
     
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  32. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    Matt has been Executive Producer for a while now.

    Cheers
     
  33. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Who outranks who I wonder? But as I said, still MIA from the company profile.
     
  34. spicemaster

    spicemaster Member

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    Just to add my bit here,

    i'm sorry dtg but....

    TSW 3 should of been packed with a hell of alot more features than what you are giving.

    The community have voted on polls for years their top wants from the game and you really seem to be unable to deliver some basic things that have been asked for, and I think TSW 3 misses the mark quite a bit.
    The fact you said all TSW 2 content would be working from day 1 and already you have gone back on that, and who knows what other promises are going to be broken, just shows how unprepared this all is, It will be Rush hour all over again, Wait isnt there still massive bugs on some platforms?

    When Sam was in charge of the interaction between the fans and yourselves (via youtube) I felt like you had turned a corner with your honesty and transparentness, but since Sam has been sidelined I really struggle to find it in my heart to support the company.

    This is my opinion, It is based on my own views.
     
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  35. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    An Executive outranks a Senior. It was his job promotion.

    Cheers
     
  36. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    By interesting to see who heads the road map stream tonight, Id expect it to be Matt
     
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  37. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Promoted so high that he doesn't appear on the company website?

    A good conspiracy theory that Matt has left and set up on his own to create the railway simulator he has always aspired to do.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2022
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  38. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    If he is, perhaps someone who actually sits through the thing can ask why he's gone undercover.

    Along with what he intends to do about the save game situation as well.
     
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  39. Gilly

    Gilly Well-Known Member

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    SCS can't even do sofas correctly! ;)
    images.jpeg
     
  40. mibl61

    mibl61 New Member

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    I agree. When TSW was new I thought it was silly with all achievements, points and collectables and didn't think I'd play a single hour. But now I have all DLC and 1482 hours with TSW2 and love it. And if TSW3 doesn't meet my expectations and turns out to have more bugs than TSW2, well then there are other train sims. And ETS2/ATS, MSFS and other simulator like games I can play. Or do something completely different.
     
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  41. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Like flying out to Beagle Point in Elite Dangerous. That's usually good for a month or so.
     
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  42. March Hare

    March Hare Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the save game issue itself is going to be that difficult to resolve in terms of coding, for a good developer given the time to do it. I think it's more of a case that it was badly designed to begin with, with no conditions/requirements put in place for all route developments to follow (a blueprint) to ensure saves work across routes, so it's become a pain to have to go through every DLC and change them individually, as the routes all do seem to be treated like separate games, with varying quality in sky depiction, lighting, etc. That's kind of weird really.

    I ran this issue past my sibling, who is an experienced developer (Civilization VI, Halo, etc.), and he thought I was joking about saves not working from day 1, especially being carried over across different iterations of the simulator. I agree with him. Never heard anything like it.

    Sadly, I purchased TSW2 and DLC in a sale, before I knew about this major flaw -- and warning sign of bad development planning, implementation, and ethics.

    I believe they can get it right. But they need to slow down and fix bugs (that's what they said they were doing right before the TSW3 leak), but we didn't expect that to mean start again and remove broken features (for now). But who are they accountable to? Are DTG their own publisher too? I haven't really checked it out. An established, ethical publishing house certainly wouldn't let their development team issue a release build without a functioning save feature -- a basic thing.

    Yes, but saves are complex, because you have the save states of the trains and the signals... But there are games out there that surely have to save many more game states in a single save than this.

    As I said, I think it's more a case of bad design, therefore bad implementation, therefore a pain to unravel in retrospect. But not impossible.
     
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  43. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I agree, I was intrigued and slightly excited for the TSW3 announcement as I thought it might have been something much more radical than it was.

    TSW has much potential but just seems narrow in its scope.

    DTG seem to have managed to sow chaos and confusion where before there was merely some unsettlement!
     
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  44. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Well a combination of their two sims would achieve that but it isn't going to happen.

    It is a shame about Simrail if it has disappeared, maybe there is just a hiatus. Paul/Sly401's (IHH) trackside simulator has gone very quiet too, it was close to release at one point so it seemed.
     
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  45. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    There some right piffle in here now…. Are we at the wiki leaks and bidens fault stage yet?
     
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  46. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    The release of simrail went from q2 of this year to "coming soon" which is a shame but clearly the development of the game was not close to being fully completed so I rather have a game delayed if it means the end product is good rather than releasing a product that clearly isn't done like some of DTG's products
     
  47. BR125

    BR125 Well-Known Member

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    Oh really? Im a fan of high speed mainline diesel running in the UK - found me any content to play that has come out in the last 3 years?
     
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  48. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    I didn't say they catered for all tastes, I said it's ridiculous to say that there is "no promise of it actually containing any content outside of southern england EMU routes'' when 2 of the last 3 UK routes from DTG have not been in southern England.

    There is West Cornwall Local for you.
     
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  49. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Leaving aside the ghastly Rivet QA and bloopers with both the route and Class 150/2, West Cornwall hardly gives scope for high speed (as in 100 MPH or greater). Line speed no more than 70 MPH IIRC and by the time you stop at all stations you won't even be doing that for very long. They couldn't even add the "High Speed Train" HST reworked to an earlier Paxman Valenta engined type. So other than GWE, which is so old it's now got grey whiskers, there are no other UK routes in TSW2 where fast diesel services operate. In fact other than GWE and SEHS on the specialised HS1 section, we have no UK routes that offer significant fast sections even for "Off The Rails" scenarios.

    Which is why there was so much disappointment that DTG decided to regurgitate SEHS rather than bring something new and different in for the UK. Complete lack of imagination when we could have had a section of the WCML, ECML, Bristol to Birmingham, North Wales Coast, Midland Main Line. Take your pick.
     
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  50. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    I feel for people wanting new UK content, but it seems like some people think it will never come?

    With TSW3 launching on Sept 6th, undoubtedly there will be 2 (or maybe more with 3rd parties) TSW3 routes releasing before the end of the year.

    I'd bet my hat that at least one will be a brand-new UK route, considering the SEHS extension probably didn't take as much dev resources as the other 2 launch routes- that team is likely already working on their next project.

    If the UK route of our dreams comes out in November, is that really so terrible?
     
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