Is it just me or are DTG's actions making it clear to us that this game is all about new content? I mean the old content is just abandoned. Let's look at the support cycle of "new" add-ons - 2-3 months to fix bugs that are easiest to fix. 1-2 small patches. And that's it. The add-on safely loses its "new" status, and at the same time loses interest from DTG. Of course, we have a core addons that will be fixed until the next version of the game is released. At first, there will be many small patches. And then the intensity will begin to subside. At the same time, many obvious bugs that were noticed BEFORE the release will remain. The only hope to see a bug fixes is a remaster. But the remaster's bugs will also be superficially fixed in 1-2 patches and then abandoned. I just want to say to those who have recently joined the local crowd: if the add-on is poor quality from release - ask for a refund, don't expect a miracle. There is still a chance of remaster. But you can just buy a remaster later.
I'm not sure what's new here because it's always been like that. Build a route, release it, move on to the next one.
I used to have a “I'll buy all the DLC on day 1” mentality. But now I wait for 80-90% sales, because unfortunately many DLCs are no longer worth more than that due to seriously neglected product maintenance. In addition, people used to be happy about patches of all kinds. Nowadays you think “Oh no, a new patch, who knows what it will break this time and how many weeks, months or years you will have to wait until fixes for said self-made bugs are released (if any)”. Many other developers take self-made bugs very seriously and throw out hotfixes in no time. But here you're left in the lurch for ages. As a result, an incredible amount of money is lost, money that DTG unnecessarily forgoes because they are simply cutting costs in the wrong place.
DTG operate like a car company, once the current car model rolls off the assembly line, they throw away any tooling for that model and they put 100% of their interest into their new vehicle model and good luck to anyone who has a problem with the previous car. I am not telling or instructing anybody to or not to buy DLCs, but....if you are not happy with the current set up, you have options open to you.
It will only get worse the more content you have to support. If you have to stock car parts for every model in the past 50 years, that's a lot of parts compared to just the past 5 years. same with DLCs. One advantage of DTG moving to a "provider only" and not a creator model is that they don't have to update every DLC. They just update the core and it's up to the third party companies to update their own routes. It's much less work for TSW, and the creators know their own projects better. It also takes the heat off DTG when something isn't modified. They can tell you to go back to the creator for support. It's like being a "car dealer" vs a "car designer." If you want to keep that car for 20 years, expect that you'll have to find someone willing to make new parts for it. Now anything DTG makes, yes they'll have to upgrade. However, third party stuff it's up to how popular it is. Just like it's easy to find "Jeep" parts because there's a LOT of jeep fans out there so lots of companies make parts for them. But less popular classic cars? Gotta search junk yards for that stuff on your own. Now there is a silver lining. Those routes that stay popular will stay updated because they are selling so it's more profitable to keep selling them, and the update cost is much less than the creation cost so it's quite profitable to keep selling them to noobs coming into the game every new version. In 10 years, when new players come into TSW 16, Just Trains will probably still be selling the Blackpool route so it'll only cost them a tiny bit to upgrade the route, but the sales on keeping it current will keep it making money. The only drawback is that those routes not making sales probably won't be upgraded, let alone "fixed" or "remastered." Because why would you work on something few people want?
I wonder why DTG doesn't allow it's home-made routes to be amended by third party developers. This can come in from fixing scenery, bugs or fixing timetables.
It sounds to me like those routes will lose copy protection. And everyone on PC just can get the modded variants for free. I mean, DTG clearly builds copy protection into their add-ons. And I highly doubt that this feature would be available to regular editor users.
It' amazing how there's a market for older routes to receive updates, yet DTG don't want to pursue it. Would make money from new and old players.
As noted it’s not a new thing. What makes it worse is those sickly “high five” preview presentations where each new route is portrayed as being the best thing to come to the game. Then once the sales target has been met it spins off the DTG flywheel. Look no further than SoS and PFR where there was great fanfare about steam traction in TSW. The fact it turned out rather disappointing is incidental but we were all left anticipating the routes would be built on in terms of further loco and stock packs, but nothing came. Now DTG won’t even talk about steam, apart from a certain blue toy engine. And TBH I bet that suffers the same fate. All the carousing, fireside chats etc., six months after release it will be forgotten. The other issue seems to me the game is becoming over saturated with very similar content. Look at the fairly subdued response to the new Ludwig German route, not many people really see it as a key addition to their content. Same with the two third party UK electric bus service routes, already got plenty of those which DTG have forgotten rather than getting on extending or fleshing out with more layers. BCC, anyone?
If any older route does get some attention, it seems to come down to one individual who likes messing about in his/her own garage or just likes a particular route or maybe enjoys timetabling or signalling as a spare time hobby. There doesn't appear to be a plan by the company to methodically revisit older dlc. And some routes age really fast. I doubt we'll see any more substantial work on WCMLS, it's almost ancient history now in terms of revenue.
It's been like this for longer than TSW has existed as a concept. It's how it was in Train Simulator and Rail Simulator. Very few things are ever updated, but in some ways DTG are better now than they were ten years ago. They should keep on top of bugs, but there are a few things to consider: Each new TSW release brings new bugs and it's a lot of effort to go through every DLC to find bugs each year. If DTG didn't recompile the game each year, many of the latest bugs probably wouldn't exist. Quite a few reported bugs are in fact just user error. Most bugs are minor. They shouldn't exist, but most of them aren't enough of an issue. In TS, historical bugs in DTG DLC can be excused because there is no expectation for DLC to be maintained, and most issues can be fixed by the community if the demand is there. It also helps that most of the more experience players barely touch DTG's trains, the biggest source of problems. TSW is a bit difficult because the community is reliant on DTG to publish fixes. You can complain about it, but nothing is going to change it. If we were able to freely modify TSW content, we could probably fix most of the historical bugs in a few weeks.
It doesn't help many people are apparently 'happy' with WCML South despite all the bugs, scenery, missing services etc. If that's the case, then that gives the perfect excuse for DTG to not revisit the route again as what's looking likely after the upcoming patch release. What's worrying me is this game is starting to appeal more to the casual gamer who tends to take no detail or error when it comes to realism whether that's spotting incorrect scenery or missing services. The whole games purpose as from the core is to offer a realistic experience when driving whether from an intense timetable, loco shunting moves, rail tours etc. If the basics like this can't be met, it just frustrates more and more users who just wants to take a break from reality and drive real life routes represented how it's like in reality to only have it ruined by 'top executives' who's probably never taken a train in their life to dictate what and where gets the investment. The MBTA Commuter was clearly overshadowed by the shambles of the WCML South with an attempt to sugar coat the problem as is likely the realase of other future DLC's. I can safely bet the development for the core TSW6 routes and locos are already on their way with more reasons to neglect old routes and just go on the lines of 'as long as there's sales, it works'. Throwing to many bottles up and down since TSW3 with the state of NYT still lingering on to this day and the disastrous release of TSW4. The model is clearly not working and seriously needs a review for restructuring, we are sick and tired of again from feedback that the content isn't good enough. Oh and don't start on the business with Rivet Games.
Welcome to the world of marketing ya'll. DTG isn't your friend, it's a company. Ofcourse it's gonna prioritize profit over supporting an already released product. To think that a company hyping up their product and then not speaking about it after 6 months is something new is kinda silly. Besides that I rarely get the issues all of you are talking about. I play a couple hours everyday and the bugs I experience is like maybe 1 every other day. I'ts just the reality of software that it's gonna have bugs
I am one of the people who enjoys playing it (after the last update), in spite of the remaining problems. Do I want them fixed? Yes, of course I do, but I'm not going to cut my nose off to spite my face if I actually get something out of playing it. This is complete nonsense and a weird form of snobbery. Who are you to decide who's 'casual' and who's 'serious'? I would argue that the driving experience is the number one measure of realism over some incorrect scenery or a missing railtour service. That's not to say that they aren't important but I'm simply pointing out that your priorities aren't necessarily the same as other people's. Should we ban people from playing a musical instrument, on their own or with other people of a similar standard, if they haven't got the requisite musical qualifications because they aren't 'serious enough'? Should people be allowed to pontificate about writing software if they have no idea as to how to do it themselves?
The UK DLCs are a guaranteed purchase for me but depending on how excited I am for them it'll be either day 1 or whenever for me. The German stuff I'll purchase if on a sale and funds allow it. The US stuff I rarely purchase.
The main outstanding issue with WCMLS is the shonky Rivetness. But this is equally apparent from their other routes, the tunnels on EtoG have the same style where the portals don't line up with the lining. But unlikely either DTG or Rivet will revisit that.
I should've probably rephrased my self to say it's the 'majority of players' rather than 'casual'. Even again, driving experience is indeed one of the core aspects of TSW, however what are the limitations of the driving experience? Is it souly just based on the cab where you just drive from there? Driving experiences come from way more that, it comes from what you encounter on the track whether being dealing with an intense traffic, speed markers, stopping points etc. I'd argue, yes scenery should be a priority as much as the driving experience. As a driver, you're required to know every single bridge, station, tunnel and a basic geography on where you're driving. If an incident occurred, how exactly are you going to report it to users or the signalman? Yes, signallers can see where you are, but the block within the signal can be sometimes at a large space. In particular when speeds are higher. For an incorrect scenery such as Primrose Hill tunnel to be poorly modeled where unless you have basic geographical knowledge, I highly doubt you would know it's the tunnel itself. It's not just scenery, but also dealing with safety systems, it's severe in my opinion one of the most basic assets of the railway doesn't have AWS ramps at both the Watford and Primrose Hill tunnels as well as some other places are missing, which is critical safety feature. How did this pass? My guessing DTG intentionally did this for the sake of 'meeting the release deadline' hoping no one will take notice. Last but not least, the timetable. The WCML South is by fact one of the busiest lines by traffic in the UK with trains arriving into Euston once every few minutes, to only have the services only appearing as a skeleton of it's self takes away the driving experience on what it's like to drive an intense timetable. The last time I can say we had this for a UK route was London Commuter back in TSW2. Driving in an intense timetable with seeing lots of trains and getting stuck behind singles is a critical aspect of driving, I wouldn't want to drive in a boring empty route with almost nothing or action taking place. Looking at the timetable myself, there's meant to be at least 5x more Avanti traffic which should on paper have trains from AI to playable of services arriving into Euston once every 6-7 minutes on average. Yes I am taking this from the referencing of the current timetable. This isn't just on the Class 390, it's also the Class 350 which has notable missing services, it may not be as noticeable but you can notice the southbound Birmingham to Euston service has a whopping two hour gap between 13:00 and 15:00 as one of the examples. I would also add I don't think it's fair to say some of my thoughts are not of the majority. From what I see, everyone is very much divided on what they want and don't want. Some just care about locos, some just want route scenery to be on point or some even don't like intense routes like London Commuter and would much prefer other regional routes. Everyone has their own preferences on what is what. I personally prefer ideally a route with an intense timetable with a mix verity of services as what WCML South is meant to be. However sadly, it's getting increasingly frustrating no further commitment after the planned patches will there ever be more investment into this route. This is likely the majority are satisfied leaving no reason for DTG to revisit the route again. It's a sad reality, 'as long as it made sales, then there's no reason to return it'. If players continue to not care about the incorrect scenery, bugs or missing services from the timetable. We may as well prepare ourselves for more sub-par content in the future since DTG doesn't seem a need for such routes to be up to standard then what it used to be.
Ive got the same bee in my bonnet right now over this new "ECML Railtour Pack" They're trying to Fool noobs into Unrealistic Simulator Products While all the True Enthusiasts Who've been here since Railworks (TSC before the name change) Get no new content I like Freight Locos And I like to learn the routes hudless doing freight runs before passenger services. We haven't had a new UK freight Loco since TSW 2 Class 47 WSR Class 37 Class 20 Class 31 Class 08 TVL Class 40 class 45 NTP Class 66 GWE Ever since TSW2 UK Diesel Locomotives have only been recycled I Dunno about the US and EU but the only thing that is new is always passenger trains. And when we ask for Icons like The INTERCITY 225 And get modern 1 handle Start stop no skill trains Just feels like it's all aimed at gullible idiots these days. And you try and tell people there is nothing new about it and they get all defensive I hope later in life they learn that the poor standards this Simulator is becoming is only because they accept these standards
How do you power anything with salt? (Not making fun of you, just pointing out your analogy is appropriate. Salt doesn't add much but flavor to food)
Consider what sells and what the majority of the audience wants. That's your answer. And to be fair on DTG's side.. you have 90% of the modern freight locos already in the game for the UK. If you admit they're only pushing modern stuff, then that's about all there is for them aside from maybe the 68 or the 70. They think people only want modern passenger stuff. I haven't seen their market research, but judging by Steam sales... that seems to be correct.
Off the top of my head, Classes 59, 60, 66, 67, 68, 70, 86 (until recently), 88, 90, 92 and soon 99 are in regular use on freight runs in various parts of the country.
Exactly my point all the good Modern locos are missing we have 66 that runs today and a 37/5 on unit drags that's it. Hardly 90% of even the modernised Freight fleet Let alone if you go back 50 years Like why hasn't route learning in journey mode with a class 67 not happened yet If I was learning a new section of track for upcoming works or just increasing route knowledge you always go light loco and learn BPB did a wonderful job with the DUFF GEN Hands down easiest route I learnt rarely using the HUD all because I did it without worrying about where I'm stopping or overshooting and trying again But no were getting unrealistic railtours And short maps that should really start connecting and interacting instead of being broken and having services halfway across the network can be driven over 3 maps but can't be driven entirely due to gaps in the route It's become train recycling world no new valuable assets available just old DLC Painted and sold to new players Even if the simulation side of things makes no sense they're doing it anyways
Also forgot to mention The class 56,57,58 (Class 47 1st regeneration) Is now a class 69 passed load testing last year and they are hauling freight now And not even the temptation of not even having to change the body of a 47 putting the controls of a class 66 and using the sounds of a 66 it still can't get development moving forward
I love how every thread on this forum turns into a discussion of US and UK freight addons. Meanwhile, I can't end a single NYT run because the beeping in the cab starts to 'pet' my ears in pornographic ways. And what about DTG? DTG doesn't care. Final freaking product ladies and gents!
two little things I would like to mention - there used to be a bug in Koln Aachen which if you loaded a 442 service from Aachen to Koln, one of two units would spawn without a panto, making it impossible to drive pretty much... a couple years after it got reported, a couple months ago it got fixed the other thing is that some recent patch/update seems to have broken alerter (on F125 partially and on Rotem Cab Car it doesnt work) and headlights in trains for Antelope Valley Line so yea, stuff happens, sometimes they fix it, sometimes not
Essentially a glorified reskin pack with a few scenarios or timetable runs added to existing routes. Accept a new developer needs to cut their teeth, but there's doing that and plucking low hanging fruit. Freight packs, cargo packs, railtour packs when what we want is a Sulzer Type 2, a Class 50, Deltic, Class 56 or Class 60. But no one seems prepared to tackle what would actually appeal to a large percentage of users.
While this is not exclusive to the TSW franchise (other games are just as guilty of abandoning older content for new stuff) I think what makes it more apparent is the inconsistent quality of content. Take the GWE remaster for example which is looking to be an incredible upgrade over the original vs the upcoming Koln to Aachen Timetable Update. While I don't mean to discredit Joe's incredible work with the new timetable which adds a whopping 4,000 services total (including AI) it's disappointing to learn that for however long that was in development nobody was free to add TOD4 lighting to the route, making the route still feel old and left out. Adding TOD4 to an existing route is a lengthy process however it's possible in just a couple of months and this TT update has been in the works for much longer than that. It's the same for Hamburg Lubeck with the 218. TOD4 should really be on most legacy routes by now. The biggest failure on DTG's end at least in my opinion is the total disregard for Steam, anyone can see it's been abandoned and that they have no motivation to pursue it. Their choice to start with a busy mainline with only 2 trains and then to follow that up with an incomplete railway line with little providence is certainly a questionable one. They gave up too quickly and the steam strategy was all wrong. If they at least fixed the steam physics than third parties could come on board and make their own steam content, but now nobody wants to touch it, so now we have a Train Simulator with no good steam trains....that's an issue.
It's got worse since they went from being an "independent" company and taken over by the corporate that is Focus Entertainment. It was probably necessary in order to remain a viable business but the way of the World is that as soon as the big boys get involved ( which with something successful they invariably do), it becomes all about profit to the exclusion of anything else.
Here's a man who gets it mate I bet like me this is a bit of an enjoyable pass time for you that's slowly being turned into a kids game taking advantage of enthusiasts without knowledge of the rail system. No skill No realism Just trains old and new running services on routes U know if we had a TIMETABLE pack That changed us from BR ERA locos, Carriages and wagons To the modern timetable with HST's Intercity 225 and Azumas for the mixed traffic Both timetables could have separate layers to basically drain my wallet and keep me entertained happily But no they're getting mixed in together using disc space that could be used for the correct period layers
I actually disagree. Before the Focus acquisition the company was all over the place and I think getting that financial security was vital. I'm not sure how many people remember how dire the TSW 2 life cycle was from it's lackluster announcement phase to the roadmap streams where they cleary had no idea what to talk about and kept repeating the same stuff. The DLC quality back then also was probably the worst it's ever been. Bakerloo Line with it's original timetable, SEHS V1, LGV, West Cornwall, Arosa, the Class 313, BML crashing, etc and let's not forget how long it took for all our DLC to be compatible with TSW 2, we may not have it great at the moment but it was so much worse back then.
I didn't even know Focus had took on TSW I'm surprised they're actually allowing the likes of Reskins and Unrealistic DLC to be sold under a simulation status They set the bar quite high when it comes to simulation games and leave Reskins and Unrealistic mods to the community So I might have a look there and see if they have they're own TSW forums?
I doubt they do. It's a DTG product. DTG are the ones developing it and publishing for it. All Focus did was buy DTG.
They took them over sometime in 2023 I believe, or early 2024 can't remember. They haven't done anything yet, so probably won't at all.
Something that would be useful would be a bug tracker for all of DTG's games and add-ons, including third party content published by DTG.
I agree with your first point but the World is what it is and profit is King. However in the old days, at least there was a dedicated preservation crew which doesn’t seem to exist any more (it doesn’t make money after all).
Not offended! It's an older turn of phrase from when salt based nuclear reactors were being prototyped. It's used in specific nuclear reactors as a coolant or fuel mixture. MSR reactors (Molten-salt reactors). They've made a slight comeback recently so I've been seeing the phrase more.
dtg have proved this is a game not a simulator...so back to the buggy TSC classic with mods! What a legacy!
Car manufactures will build boring cars they can produce easily to make fast money. They have zero interest in spend more time than they have to on any given model. Then there are a few employees that decide to go against their employers ideas to create or upgrade some of these cars in their spare time, working in their lunch hour or staying late at night to produce something extraordinary and what they produce usually ends up being a financial runaway success for the company. Does this sound familiar?
Just tinfoil sombrero but I think Focus have been pulling more than a few strings to bring DTG and their train games in line with what they want. TSC virtually abandoned apart from the subscription model. TSW seems to be suffering from a lack of in house technical talent either where the core or content is concerned. Pre takeover, DTG would never have entrusted the keynote annual update UK route to an outfit like Rivet. The Ludwig route with no new locos or train sets. They are rapidly being reduced to a distributor for other parties’ products with a handful of marketing and PR staff.
