Tsw - Simulation Or Not?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by joerg.lange, Dec 30, 2021.

  1. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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    I think there is no doubt that all three refer to a model of a real-life situation as the meaning. Unless you want to nitpick but then this is not necessary in our case. The context is clear and it is a waste of resources to try and state that a different meaning applies.

    The sky is blue. You'll tell me that I'm wrong because it's baby blue. Seriously?
     
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  2. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    As you have stated there, 'I think', you have made an interpretation of the definitions based on your understanding of the context, which is exactly my point. Not one of these definitions explicitly state 'real-life', yet you have decided that this clarification applies and thus, you have demonstrated your subjective interpretation.
     
  3. graham.haddon

    graham.haddon Member

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    To clarify. I am definitely in the it has its issues but is definitely a simulator that is getting better all the time camp.
    Consistency in quality across routes and locos I think is the biggest issue at the moment.
     
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  4. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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    Some people simply have too much free time...
     
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  5. Quentin

    Quentin Well-Known Member

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    I accept that you wouldn't find such things on a 'pure' simulator. But if TSW was only bought by people who want a highly accurate simulator and no other frills, they would sell only a fraction of their current volumes and prices would have to be equivalently higher. It's the console-based 'gamers' that allow us to buy TSW content at the current prices.
     
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  6. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not even trying to suggest your definition is an incorrect one, I'm simply pointing out that other definitions exist and can be applied.
     
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  7. animatiker

    animatiker Member

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    For me it's the same. Physics is the most important thing, driving the train in the simulator has to feel like moving a few hundred tons of metal and not like some plastic toy car. Many trains are doing quite well in that point in TSW, although we have a few trains that feel quite like toys, especially the ones built by a well known third party developer who already released a few routes and trains.
    The DTG trains generally do quite good, even more when compared to DTG trains in Train Simulator, where especially the German trains are crappy. Some points still bother me though - for example the generally quite good 425 which does not accelerate over around 156 km/h. Well, normally without LZB the PZB would kick in at over 145, because it's only allowed to go faster under LZB surveillance. But LZBs not implemented and that's not the point here, in TSW the power doesn't allow it to reach even it's top speed 160, which wouldn't even be allowed in Germany: Every train has to prove to be able to go 10% faster than the desired top speed, so a 425 has to be able to reach 176 km/h in order to be allowed to go 160 in regular service, similar the ICE 3 did 363 km/h in test runs.
    That's in fact a problem I have with the Virtual Railroads trains in Train Simulator, too - they all miraculously stop accelerating when reaching their regular top speed. But that's another topic not to be discussed here.
    Apart from the right physics, the trains should also implement the systems needed for driving which they have in reality. That includes of course all the safety systems, but also things like cruise control etc. GSM-R, a working air conditioning unit or something like that is more a gimmick to me, because it isn't much of use in TSW. I would love to see a bit more variation in the door systems, though, it feels just wrong to open the doors on a Class 47 with Mk2 coaches by pushing a button.

    Second for me is trackside signalling:
    and unfortunately I have to disagree here.
    It is, that's a fact, way better than the signalling on German TS routes (made by DTG), but still there are many problems and wrong signalling. Most immersion breaking point for me is departing a train on SKA and HMA on Hp0 + Sh1 in Cologne and Munich. Hp0+Sh1 just allows shunting moves and would never allow a passenger train to depart. Any real life ICE driver would not move a meter being shown this signal (and maybe call the signaller that whatever he's trying to do, he's doing it wrong).
    There are some other wrong signals, like green flashing Ks1 without a Zs3v showing any speed, or signals showing a yellow Ks2 although the corresponding main signal is not showing red Hp0.
    But yeah, mostly you are able to see and guess what the signals are trying to tell you, which is a great improvement compared to Train Simulator. I recently did a run on Frankfurt - Karlsruhe where a Ks-Signal was showing a yellow and green light at the same time... And no, it wasn't an Hp Signal trying to tell me to proceed with 40 km/h max.

    On the other hand, UK signalling seems very well modelled both in TS and TSW for me, but that's just because I don't know the real signalling that much. Same with AP trains in TS or most UK trains in TSW - they feel just right to me, because they feel like a real train (apart from earlier mentioned 3rd party trains), but I would never be able to tell if they are really behaving like the real thing.

    Another thing I quite care for, but which I guess is a gimmick to most of the players, is correct OHLE. I love the German routes in TS with the perfect OHLE like Münster - Bremen or Konstanz - Villingen and would love to see an OHLE like that in TSW. The catenary on the Meißen Branch was somewhat better, but still I always feel like laughing when the contact wire is pushed and not pulled at the gantries. This would just not work in real life... But that's a point 99% of the players wouldn't even notice I guess.
     
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  8. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I don't want to play the devil's advocate but if the lighting is bad enough that (for example) some critical track-side signage can't be read, that makes following real life procedures impossible, the same can be said for some critical papers and information about the train (without EBuLa or Buchfahrplan you don't know a freigh train's max speed - which varies almost constantly due to gradients).

    At this point it ceases to be an imitation of a real world activity.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2021
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  9. jamesthepershing

    jamesthepershing Active Member

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  10. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    It's definitely not an ideal thing and is something that really needs to be focussed upon in future as it certainly does inhibit the experience. However, I definitely consider it an exaggeration to consider it a different category of game because of this failing.
     
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  11. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    While I can sort of agree, everyone has a different threshold, and there is no ultimate definition. The ideal simulator would be a 1:1 recreation of reality, every one of these little things add up to ultimately make the experience different, some things like train physics make more difference, others are more insignificant... where to draw the line is a personal decision IMO.

    I personally don't consider the Rivet Class 150 a "simulator" experience, I am sure people will disagree, and certainly none of the American routes is "close enough" to reality for me... not until in-cab signalling gets sorted out, and realistic physics are introduced. SMH gives the right "experience" but it's not actually that realistic.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2021
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  12. jamesthepershing

    jamesthepershing Active Member

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    Except, if you define a simulator as a piece of software that allows you to follow a real life driver's procedures as close as possible, sooo many aspects are missing. For example, one of the first things a driver does on a class 377 is log on to the TMS, set up the driver code and route code; as well as register on the GSM-R. In TSW the best you can do is change the already set destination on a laughable version of the MITRAC. Another core feature missing is neutral sections. I can't believe there is no neutral section functionality when AP have managed to do it with a 10+ year old game (TS). And I could go on and on and on.....
     
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  13. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    The main argument against TSW being a simulator is that it isn’t as complex as previous train simulators. The argument has never been about dictionary definitions of the word “simulator” and as such dictionary definitions should not be used in this context, as that would mean that no train simulators are simulators and that isn’t the argument here.

    The only reason dictionaries don’t cite ‘… or for entertainment purposes’ in their definition of a simulator, even though they do cite ‘pretending’ in the definition of ‘simulation’, is because they either haven’t seen enough usage of it yet or just haven’t had the time because they are busy adding words like “woke” and “lol” to gain attention for their dictionary.

    So back to the real reason, people think TSW is just a game and not a simulator is because isn’t as detailed and technical as they want it to be and is popular with people with less technical knowledge than them. It sounds a bit like elitism and that is only strengthened by those people saying they would be prepared to spend £100 on a DLC if it meant it had more functionality and was closer to the real locomotive. I’ve got news for those people though. They aren’t doing it for real, they are still playing dress-up, and they still pretend to drive trains for fun just like the rest of us. Their cries of “How can it be a simulator when you don’t even have to charge the flux capacitor for four hours before even powering up the auxiliary toolbox” don’t make them more deserving of the pleasures of simulated train driving, and thus fall on deaf ears with me as much as with the dictionary definition crowd. TSW is a train simulator like all the others, just one that’s more accessible.
     
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  14. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Speaking as one who knows a little bit about trials, that is exactly wrong. It is precisely what 12 of I or you think of a situation which determines guilt and the sentence.
     
  15. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    A lot of fair points here. I think the option for the player to add/remove realism (weather, safety systems, turn off action points, etc) is a pretty good compromise, and tbf TSW2 has those options for the most part.

    Unfortunately the budget is probably pretty tight and they're never going to please everyone.
     
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  16. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Here i want to give my perspective of tsw, what should be more a constructive feedback than a complaint. Aswell i want to point out that i enjoy tsw 2 with its improvements, not just because its a new simulator (5 years), also because the endless possibilities of either simulating a route, vehicles and also allowing so many different ways to play/enjoy/simulate railroading.

    This thread shows hopefully that its a huge challenge, which dovetail and other 3rd party dev is into, as a developer to satisfy a big playerbase, which everybody has different expectations and focuses of the content and the sim it self and when it comes to what is important to make it to everybodies individual most enjoyable experience.

    And when it comes to pricing it shows, that the decision tsw making a good simulator not is just black and white.

    I think in the first place tsw has to be "fun to play", which means that i as customer get a good simulated railroad experience for the money i pay. To be straight, thats what tsw does really well in my opinion.

    Where things start to get not as easy anymore its basicly what covers this thread: do 100% replicated locomotives with all features make tsw a better game?

    I would call my self a hardcore simmer because im around real trains at work too, means no hud driving, interested in as many advanced features a locomotive can have. In short, locomotives with just basic elements are braking my experience in tsw2 entirely, (Thats me).
    Then on the other side there are a lot of customers which are more interested in a nice casual driving experience, without complicated procedures and the additional technical stuff. They are frustrated because they dont know how the systems are working and would be literally lost in space if they had a 100% replica of the real locomotive. And i doubt they would call tsw a fun experience if they wouldnt even manage to startup the loco.

    So right now the simulated aspects of released content is "you get what you get".
    Means we pay 20 euro for:

    - TSGs superb modeled g6 shunter which is worth way more than its current price in my opinion because its advanced features.
    - DTGs classic diesels like cl20, cl31, cl33 which also are detailed with fuses adv. Features etc.
    - skyhooks 187, which doesnt even cover the basic systems and was a disappointment for many players.

    My point is, with the potential of tsw, why not cover the entire playerbase with simulation deepthness?
    Tsw most improvment is the 24h timetable mode. Beside the player in his train, the AI uses simplified physics. Thats where my suggestion comes with:

    - every released loco has the basic features
    - people want have advanced features like traction interloc, simulated fuses, local dmu startup could upgrade their loco with an "advanced dlc" upgrade as payware.
    - people want the ultimate experience, a dlc pack could upgrade the loco to a state, which the creator of the thread described (realistic mu working for us locos etc.)

    This way a lot of complaints would stop, because the customer can just upgrade his locos to the experience he likes to in complexity. Second point, the AI with its simplified physics isnt affected.

    Before going into the routes i want to point out a "NO GO", means somthing never should happen in a simulation with a perspective, vision and a promising future.

    As an example: in the first tsw dlc sand patch grade we got features like modeled engine rooms on the older diesels, working train lenght counter and speed control on the computer of the loco.
    In the newest dlc sherman hill the features are inop, which seems like a total lazy shortcut through the backdoor to me (sorry for the clear words dtg)
    Same with the gp9 & sd40 clinchfield. The enginerooms are gone.

    My point in this: those steps back in what we had in previous content not supportet in new releases are sending a total concerning message. For me as a costumer a "no go". Its like audi decides to produce cars without airbag abymore from now on.

    My final thoughts here are about the routes and its signalling:

    The way the routes have improved when it comes to services we can see in the rush hour package. Im sure we will see huge improvment in future with more variety in rolling stock.

    The complexity of signalling was discussed a lot, here my perspective to it:

    At least for the 3 supported main countries an advaned simulated signalling system can be expected from a customer view. I think while the german signalling comes up to that, is the one from the uk still in early stages. Why do we have to suggest flashing double yellow signals after 5 years?, just as example.

    My point is at least the supported core routes, for which content is developed should have advanced signalling, which dont need a ton of afterwork of the preservation crew because 20 dlcs has already released, which dont come up to the standard.

    Cant tell about usa signalling, since i dont play eough us routes yet.

    This was a long post, i wish dtg and the other devs a good start into the year 2022, and i hope they reallize tsw is a real goldmine if they start to use its potential.

     
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  17. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    I think some of you want a metaverse rather than a £20-30 piece of software! You could argue that Metro Sim Hustle is a better simulator because you need to eat, sleep and earn money etc. It was interesting that the career mode was so high up the wishlist....

    I don't expect this to have the same functionality as a real life driver training module, I do expect it to allow me to make believe that I am interacting with a real life railway with real life trains. This is why in my opinion the most important element is "immersion". This is what allows the fiction to persist. The fiction begins when you load into the route and should exist until you exit to the main menu. This is why I floated the idea of hubs where big stations that feature on more than one route can be used to load straight from one route to another without going into the menu, to maintain that immersion. (e.g. using the ticket barriers to move between routes)

    Bugs and absent features break this immersion and remind you it is a video game, like having to press Tab or having blank screens or running the same service 1000 times and the exact same trains being in the exact same places without any variation whatsoever, that feels more like groundhog day. Also the one-trick routes with only one type of stock or huge stations that are mostly empty also are not immersive. In my opinion the best thing about Rush Hour is how alive the routes feel, once the bugs get fixed and it is not hanging or crashing then it will be as close to a real life experience as TSW has been. Standing on the platform at Victoria or Dresden it feels so full of activity and diversity of the rolling stock also makes it feel even more real, particularly at Dresden.
     
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  18. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I think generally being detailed and technical are what allows a game to be close to reality, that's the difference between the google maps "flight around the world" functionality and MSFS, I'm not sure how many people would consider the Google Earth "flight sim" actually a simulator, even though it has a rough flight model and the best world model to date.

    I do agree about people bothered by the fact this game is popular with people that have less technical knowledge... I see it sometimes, and I don't really like that attitude either.

    As said by other people, it's good that we have the option to opt-in or out of some of the more complex features, and I would be fully supportive of a simple driving mode like Matt proposed in the stream for example, as long as we get improvements in the other direction as well, (which in fairness we are having, the new Dresden freight wagons and brake physics for example, SMH was a step in the right direction as well)

    About people claiming they would pay £100 for each DLC... yeah ludicrous claims are not a new thing on the internet, but I would happily pay a reasonable price for an pack that added EBuLa across german routes for example, and in fact I think I will be paying for the expansion pack in order to have the correct train on SKA.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2021
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  19. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    Not going to start a metaphysical discussion about what is pure simulation or not. Just saying that when a loco has cruise control it should be simulated in the virtual version.It is one of those things that I easily notice and makes me feel like I can't drive the loco in the same way a real driver could (even if that is always an illusion with any simulator).

    I understand that cruise control takes time to implement (as everything else). My feedback is that driving the loco is probably the most important part of TSW, and special care should be taken not to cut things that are easily noticed (like missing cruise control) even if that means the budget has to be adjusted in something else.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2021
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  20. terry english

    terry english Member

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    For what it’s worth. My thoughts on Zusi compared to TSW2. I’ve watched the videos on the Zuni 3 web site and I find the scenery is poorly created. It makes no sense to me to spend thousands of £’s in developing a locomotive exact down to the last nut, bolt and microchip and then placing it into a simulation where the scenery looks very plastic.
    For me the enjoyment of driving different locomotives in TSW2 is having a locomotive that can be driven through scenery that looks as real as the locos. It makes for a much better overall experience, for me at least.
    Now, I’m afraid that the same cannot be said for Train Simulator 2022, where the scenery looks really basic and nothing near the reality of what it should look like. Take a look at Exeter St Davids on TS 2022’s offering on the Exeter to Paignton run and you will see what I mean.
    Still, my vote would still go to TSW2 because the overall experience, for me, is much more satisfying. It is not just about the locomotives but the overall package.
     
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  21. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Quite. Zusi 3 still sells at £55 on Steam and had no discount in the current sale. Though OTH, N3V are intending to sell their “new” version of Trainz at that price and Trainz is about as far from being an accurate simulation as you can get. Not to mention it’s basically just a bit of warmed over code with a handful of new routes, not even the new Surveyor unless you take up their subscription package. Anyhow not the place to whinge about N3V but it serves to illustrate what we get from DTG, by and large, is pretty good.
     
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  22. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    I don't like pizza with pineapple on it but I don't tell the restaurant to take it off the menu, I just don't order it. Why do some of you do this with TSW tasks? If you don't like them, don't do them because it's not compulsory.
    I sometimes like to walk around and watch the trains run up and down the line as a spectator and I take the opportunity to look for collectibles, thanks to this I have discovered many things that the creators have been kind enough to include in the routes that I would not have been able to see from the cab.

    Back to the subject, I'm not going to repeat excellent arguments that have already been said in this thread. For me the game (and I repeat game, because that is what it finally is) has a good balance with the simulation it pretends to recreate. I've never been able to drive a real train so I don't know the real sensations, but when I'm immersed in the cab, without HUD and with all the safety systems on, the virtual sensations that TSW transmits to me are good, it gives me the feeling that I'm in control of a machine weighing hundreds or thousands of tons. And that's enough for me, because I feel that everything is well connected to each other. The trains are very tastefully recreated and with a physics that befits a game of this type and price.
    Of course there are better and worse trains and locomotives, and I would like to see some things included to improve the immersion like the dynamic weather for example, but overall TSW makes me feel inside a living railway world and for a moment I think I am part of it. For a moment I feel like that little boy I was who was amazed to see those noisy giants on rails and for a moment I feel like I am doing something I can never do in real life, which is to drive one of those giants.
    So thanks to DTG and the other developers for building this "simulator" that makes me so happy.
    HAPPY NEW YEAR 2022 TO ALL!!!!!!!!!!;););)
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2021
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  23. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    Wow, what an amount of discussion. I am an expert in simulation. Once I go my masters degree on the fascinating topic of Calcium activation in skeletal muscles. I built a simulation model for that and learned a lot about how it works in reality, even though this simulation is rather complex, even for such a small topic. I could argue we definitely need this to be modelled in TSW2, because it is an essential part of the physics interaction between the driver and it train. This is a joke of course, I would not even consider to do this.

    A simulation or simulator always will have a lot of limitations and you always should keep its purpose in mind. In the OP it says about Zusi to implement German catenary very accurately. Why? For driver training it is complete irrelevant if it is about how to handle the train. For TSW2 fans it is highly relevant. It is just an example but any feature in a simulation should have its purpose.

    I think, the purpose of TSW2 is this:
    - Give the more ignorant player a feeling what it is like to be a real train driver.
    - Make people enjoy wonderful landscapes where they normally would never go.
    - Give people challenges, each one at its own level to drive a train.
    - Create some adventure, unexpected events, unusual circumstances, driving trains is bottom line extremely dull. (You may disagree with this, that's OK)

    I think TSW2 fulfils these purposes, but given DTG has 200 people working on three different games, also means you need a broad audience to get your costs covered. This limit the price of a DLC to what a casual player is willing to pay.

    I think TSW2 serves its purpose as simulator quite well to this extent:

    - If you know the route very well, you will be disappointed. It's not the real thing.
    - What you do not know about, cannot bother you. Personally, the wrong Dostos do not bother me. I cannot tell the difference, for me all this German stuff is red and boring.
    - A a driving experience it is OK. I am a rail fan and I read a lot about real life of train drivers and their stories. It is realistic enough to know I do not really want that job and TSW2 gives a good view on what it is about.
    - I see lots of beginning players struggle a lot with getting a train even to be set in motion
    - While playing you learn a lot about railway technology and the huge differences in experience. Bakerloo is not the same thing as Sherman Hill. You can appreciate both of them.

    So into my opinion as a simulation expert TSW2 serves is purpose as a simulation and it is a simulation. I may add the word game here. For me game means it should be fun to do and it does.

    If you prefer Zusi or Run8 or whatever, it is OK and good. But do not deny people to enjoy TSW2 because it does not fit what you need.

    EDIT.

    Forgot to mention something. My Calcium activation model simulation has a lot in common with simugraph. I spent long nights running int, so maybe we should consider this as a game as well. It was great fun to do and discover things that worked different from what may anticipate. There also were long waits. One simulation took 2 CPU minutes, so 10-15 minutes was normal. It would run much faster now ...

    This blurs the discussion, game or simulation ....
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2021
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  24. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

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    It's been pointed out by many what features are missing and what would make it more of a simulator, more so annoying when these features exist in TS, albeit created by 3rd parties. One thing that hasn't been mentioned which I'd like to add that is also missing is "neutral sections" on electrified routes, oh and sparks.
     
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  25. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Quite. I don't (except the odd poster I pass accidentally). The point is, it's fluff like that which causes the Open Rails and Run 8 curmudgeons at places like Trainsim dot com, to wag their finger and dismiss TSW as an arcade game, despite the best efforts of those who try and defend it. If DTG wanted something interactive rather than just driving, perhaps they should have created a train spotting or bashing sub game, similar to Hellfire or Scottish Rover but in 1st person 3D. Now that is something I wouldn't have minded and probably quite enjoyed, especially on the classic BR Blue routes.
     
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  26. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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    Jurors are not used everywhere in the world. Thankfully.
     
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  27. RobSkip

    RobSkip Well-Known Member

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    Disregarding the general appearance due to the engine, the scenery in ZuSi is honestly very well done, and is nearly always accurate and true to life. The question is, can the same be said for TSW? To me a true simulation needs a combination of all aspects, skimping in any one area can drag it down. ZuSi may not be the prettiest game overall, but at least locations are recognisable by more than station signs as in some TSW routes.

    On the whole TSW is fine, but I don't find myself playing it more than once a month. It's far easier to dip in and out of than TS or ZuSi, but to me TSW just lacks some of the life of other titles, the superior environment of TS1 or the 'chaos' of ZuSi. TSW could really be boosted by a bit more attention to the physics still, introduce some variety to the adhesion so wheelslip isn't so predictable and sort out the farce of a camshaft/PCM simulation/setup and it'd make content like the 313 far more enjoyable (let's not get into this DSD/DVD mess that still hasn't been fixed).
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2021
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  28. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    For people like trainspotting and drive as passenger i think tsw is really enjoyable when it comes to that.

    Of course older routes dont have the amount of services, but i found my self running as passenger quite often and my experience was like in a new game.

    Well on us freight routes i would call it "freight hopping".

    Beside being a simulator tsw offers a lot around the driving in the cab, started from the nice graphics to collectables, masteries etc.

    Even if i dont care about gold medals, i like those things around the sim aspect.
     
  29. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    The simulation is expensive (this is just the train -> 3DZUG - Highspeed Trains ).

    Playing both Dovetail titles I can say that for the same content TSW is cheaper and on average offers a higher standard than TS. Both titles feature fantastic routes / trains and some really bad ones. As a feature in the cabin, always on average, TSW offers many more. Often, in TS the trains offered with the routes (DLC) are bad and lacking in advanced features and / or where they are present they are semi-fictional. Often, very often, if you want a satisfying train to use in the routes you have to buy third-party content (outside of Steam) because it also happens that the "PRO" versions on Steam are limited in terms of features (classic example is the DB BR 103 TEE: with the LZB and other features if you buy it on the VirtualRailRoads website. Without LZB, FAN and selectable pantograph if you buy it on Steam).

    As for the physics, on average I prefer TS, although it must be said that (as above) some trains are appreciated more on TSW because they are made better. As for errors, bugs, etc, both games have different ones. I understand, however, that, even if very slowly, those on TSW are corrected.

    So in my opinion TS is more simulation than TSW? Yes, but not as much as someone who hasn't played it might think. The only real advantage of TS are the long routes and (sometimes) the ability to combine them (at the cost of having several add-ons, as many are usually required). Example -> Germany - RSSLO
     
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  30. nwp1

    nwp1 Well-Known Member

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    Is TSW2 a simulator or a game?

    In my opinion it is a simulator, with one exception which I will address in the next paragraph. The locomotives are really detailed and functional, the routes look realistic and well modelled and apart from one give you the satisfaction that they are true to life and leave you with the feeling of being there.

    If I was asked this question with West Cornwall Local as the only route, then in my opinion TSW2 would be a game not a simulator, as so much detail has been missed, which makes this route look fictional and is not realistic to real life at all. Since WCL release, if this is the trend going forward, I will refrain from buying future content other than adding some locomotives. I am not expecting 100% accuracy with every route but 25% is acceptable, but WCL only achieved about 5% and looks like fantasyland with so much content missed.

    I have all the content issued at present, apart from the new German shunter for PC and Xbox, but am reluctant to purchase future routes until WCL is improved. This route could have been so magnificent but it looks so fictional and if future routes are modelled the same, I will keep my money in my pocket and play the routes I enjoy that look realistic.

    Finally, I would love some manuals and more tutorial involvement in the future but to me, TSW2 is a simulator and until the release of WCL, pretty much a damn good one.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2021
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  31. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Gotta love these discussions, very similar thread over on the MSFS 2020 forums.

    Simulator or game? In my little portion of the world where I live, it isn’t the features, the graphics, the sounds, but the manner in which one uses the software. When I was taking flying lessons, my instructor was big on “Hanger Flying” were the chair became the best simulator for working through the maneuvers and procedures we were going to be practicing that day…. Other times the chair was just a comfy place to sit and tell “Sea Stories”.

    While a LTJG in the service, visited my best friend from high school who was a 1st LT and flight instructor for the USAF, we went to a several hundred thousand dollar full motion flight deck and had a blast playing games like having a ship driver (me) trying to land an F14.

    So in my humble opinion, it isn’t the tool that makes it a simulator or not, but how you approach and use the tool.
     
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  32. Loco Dave

    Loco Dave New Member

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    I think on the Arcade <-> Sim slider it's much closer to the sim end, and well balanced there.
    If it were more arcadey I'd soon lose interest, if it were more simmy I wouldn't even look at it.
    Two hours today on one Sand Patch scenario(no saving!) and three hours yesterday with two scenarios in Frisco. That ain't arcade.
    Okay, I know zero about Trains(I'm motorbikes, and they'll never sim them right, so I can understand frustrations) but I think I'm the market they're interested in expanding.
     
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  33. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    It’s a basic/rudimentary simulation in my eyes.

    With a little bit of work and some more thought put into manuals, tutorials and then in-turn systems simulation, it could very easily be more in-depth but still cater to newbies. Rehashing, verbatim, the same pointless ‘introduction’ & ‘tutorial’ with each DLC is a complete waste of everyone’s time.

    The GSM-R thing is a perfect example of where the problem(s) lie to me. To suggest it adds nothing to the gamplay is, with due respect to Matt, wrong. Would I rather contact a signaller through a GSM-R unit, or have to press tab and work my way through a gamey console style menu? It doesn’t even need a seconds thought.

    The veracity of Simugraph is also a red herring for me, or is it just very susceptible to ‘garbage in, garbage out’? It certainly isn’t a bulletproof physics simulation by any stretch…yet.

    As it is at the moment TSW2 feels a bit like a rudderless ship, not a game but not a proper sim. The wild inconsistencies and bugs in each DLC certainly don’t help either.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2021
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  34. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    The proper mix of game and simulation for me.

    I hope to see in 2022:
    the good (simulation) part - less buged
    the game part - more polished and varied
    more realistic / better sounds
    improved draw distance, lighting, shadows, and weather


    for a more authentic train experience.

    I love DCS World. Although I have never sat at the controls of an airplane, my # 1 model is the F-14 Tomcat by Heatblur.

    Is it because it's the best simulation? No.
    I feel like I'm on a plane. This is why.

    What I see. What I hear. The audiovisual setting creates an illusion. BR o7
     
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  35. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    Just re Simugraph, it really can be useless at times.

    Just playing a 387 service in the snow where it’s wheelslipping in tunnels and covered stations, then I put it into brake 3 and the thing goes head over heels and derails.You don’t need to be a physicist to know that such a chain of events is not actually physically possible. Is it that Simugraph that is the problem, or is it the setting up of the unit in Simugraph that is the problem? Either way, Simugraph does not make TSW a sim by any stretch of the imagination.

    ps I totally agree, a simulation is the coming together of all aspects of a given discipline. Sound, visuals, physics, systems and procedure simulation etc. are all important. For me, the lighting in this game is still the biggest immersion killer going, 5 years in. That’s the one area I hope to see fixed before anything else.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2021
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  36. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    The "Ultimate Train Simulator" is a simulator only when it's convenient for DTG, i.e. in marketing materials and for easy to implement things.

    When something requires some form of research or a non-negligible amount of work to be implemented, we either get an half-assed version or nothing at all.
     
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  37. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Ego contraversia
     
  38. Tomas9970

    Tomas9970 Well-Known Member

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    Not sure how much I want to dig into this but at least for me, everything comes down to the objective system. This is also the reason I love Zusi besides the fact that it has open creation tools.

    The TSW one is pretty strict and prettymuch dependent on the HUD and/or other symbology like markers. It's also prone to soft-locks if you don't follow the instructions exactly like when you close doors few seconds early or don't stop within few meters of a certain spot. These two things make it rather frustrating and (in my opinion) take a lot from the freedom of driving compared to Zusi.

    Of course making the system more lenient and opening possibilities for no HUD runs would make us envy some currently unimplemented features of real trains like digital timetables but that's another step.
     
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  39. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    To further this as a sim there are some
    Core things I think would enhance this.

    A training system to get your license similar to gran turismo. Basic to advanced procedures . Get rid of that scripted lark which is identical each time.

    Yard personnel, work staff(not statics), moving lively yards. Most of the time it's like you're delivering to an abandoned cemetery, no trucks, no people, no moving diggers etc.

    The world is just too lifeless outside the stations at times
     
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  40. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    This might be controversial but…

    Driving trains isn’t that hard, and certainly not in TSW2. They’re all fairly similar and they all operate in roughly the same way. The signalling systems and ‘rules’ need a bit more work but again, they’re not that difficult to master with a little effort.

    I believe TSW needs a proper stand-alone tutorial section, accessed from the main menu that shows you the basic concepts of train driving, the differences between electric/diesel/steam and the the different types of brakes, types of train, types of traction etc. It needs to concentrate both on the how’s and the why’s…not simply how you raise a Pantograph, but why etc. A tutorial on the different signalling systems in the game would also be welcome, as would tutorials on how to use the safety systems, when it’s appropriate to put lights on, what type of light and why. It then simply needs proper manuals that layout, simply, the variances from the tutorials for each unit/loco included with a DLC. Once you’ve seen it you don’t need to look again, unless you feel the need or wish to recap.

    We could then finally get rid of these mind-numbing and completely pointless copy and paste tutorials that DTG insist on including with every DLC. There’s just so little thought goes into them it almost treats the customers as if we’re all a bit daft. In journey mode for example, “so you’ve spent a good few hours driving the 387, well here’s a tutorial on the 377 which is, to all intents and purposes, the exact same train” What is the point?

    TSW is what it is…an enjoyable way to pass a bit of time. Could it be better? Yes. Could it be a lot worse? Also yes. Whether it’s a game or a sim, It's never going to be able to please everybody 100% of the time, so just enjoy it for what it is, take from it the most that you can and keep hoping it gets ‘better’ (whatever better means to you) with time.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2021
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  41. roysto25

    roysto25 Active Member

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    On the subject of tutorials, or systems guides - it would be useful to have a quick reference section in the menus to allow one to quickly check the layout of a cab you are about to drive, since you are given no time in the timetable to do that. Unlike real drivers, we tsw drivers suffer from short-term memory loss caused by flitting from loco to loco!
     
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  42. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Creative Director Staff Member

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    Those "newcomer" tutorials are essential as we have no way of determining which route or loco a player will try first. Yes, they are very formulaic but they do serve a purpose. What would be of more use is to offer a player the option to auto-skip future basics tutorials after they've completed one but as with every simple-sounding feature there is a development and test requirement to introduce this. As they stand and though they may be repetitive they are a benign inconvenience that can easily be disabled in the options menu.
     
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  43. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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  44. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I get what you're saying, Sam- but surely just about every new player starts with the base game and the three bundled routes? Meanwhile, buyers of loco DLCs are almost certainly not in their first rodeo.
     
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  45. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    Can they?! I had no idea. How to you disable them?

    ps The newcomer tutorials are something else altogether - if it’s those you’re talking about I’m aware you can escape out of them. I’m mainly talking about the loco tutorials. They are uber-repetitive…”a lot of time will be spent in the drivers seat”. All they do is show you how to go, how to stop and not much else. They’re all the same, yet they miss out fundamental steps like lights, don’t cover safety systems in anyway and are just a total waste of time. I don’t think it’s beyond the realm of man to stop it turning on the stop and objective marker every time too.

    Anyway, it’s the little things like this that could certainly push someone toward the ‘game’ side of this debate.

    pps Surely the game (other terms are available) could play the newcomer tutorial once, know it’s done so, and not show it again. Even better, and given they’re all the same, separate it out into a tutorial section and allow people to look if they want and not if they don’t.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2021
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  46. Quentin

    Quentin Well-Known Member

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    It will be interesting when steam comes to TSW (maybe in 2022 :)) - if there were a full-blown simulation of driving a steam locomotive, it would be almost impossible for a single player to handle. Some of the 'advanced' steam locos from (e.g.) Just Trains on TS2022 are pretty tricky to drive (as they also are in real life), even with an 'automatic stoker'.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2021
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  47. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Not sure but I believe you can just go back to the menu using the Esc key and respective menu keys on controller.

    I haven't done a tutorial in ages.
     
  48. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    It would only be possible with an AI fireman. No one person can run the engine and the boiler simultaneously, but there is no prospect of multiplayer any time soon.
     
  49. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    In this case i dont get why people think those tutorials are unnessecary.

    Dtgs tutorial covers in 5-20 min in a basic way, how a player can move the locomotive. Doesnt matter which dlc a customer starts with, he gets the tutorial about the content he bought.

    I like the fact tsw pushes the player into cold water. A lot of the addition stuff can be solved by trial & error.
    Also there is plenty of information about signalling and train basics in the web.

    Mat made a sperior youtube tutorial about train brakes.

    This is a bit controversial, we expect dtg to simulate the real thing with tsw, but this doesnt mean they have to prepare the food, chew it for us ready to swallow.

    Tsw is a nice challenge, plenty of things simulated like advanced brake systems etc. Thats what makes it fun.

    Real railroading is heavy regulated in procedures and safety. In Tsw a casual driver and a hardcore simmer can have an immersive experience.

    With all addons in my library i dont need the tutorials, so i skip them, not a reason to go mad on dtg.
     
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  50. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah i find the fixation on the tutorials a bit odd- just don't do them if you already know your way around?

    I've heard the idea of a "test-track" thrown around, that could house tutorials for safety systems, signalling, etc.

    I think it's a good idea, but it would divert resources from "real" route development- there's always a tradeoff lol.
     

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