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Tsw: The Chopper Has Landed!

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by TrainSim-James, Jun 18, 2020.

  1. TrainSim-James

    TrainSim-James Staff Member

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    [​IMG]

    The BR Class 20 is now available for Train Sim World! Re-live this iconic British locomotive and power your way through the Tees Valley Line

    READ MORE
     
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  2. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Q1. Will the Class 20 will be supported as a DLC under TSW after the 6th August 2020 (and will bugs be fixed, if they are found after this date...)?

    Q2. Will there be any difference in the future bug-fixing support given to the Class 20 DLC under TSW, and the Class 20 DLC under TSW2.....?
     
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  3. smash_cze

    smash_cze Member

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    Good message! I look forward to today's evening when i'll try this DLC. Nice to read that this locomotive could be operated on WSR too.

    I hope there will be also bugfix update for DB BR 204 included.
     
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  4. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    Bought it, downloaded it and looking forward to driving it tonight.
     
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  5. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    Pretty good so far IMO
     
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  6. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Well-Known Member

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    Bought it
     
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  7. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    This locomotive looks outstanding. A great way to close the chapter on TSW. Added bonus with it being operational on WSR.
    Rail freight is a great scenario and just a warning the surface may be hot.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020
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  8. Jeannot41

    Jeannot41 Well-Known Member

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    Bought.
    Superb machine. I love
     
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  9. KMAN

    KMAN Active Member

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    I am enjoying it, need to play around more but a good effort and adds more variety to TVL and WSR.
     
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  10. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    I've driven the tutorial, which, as usual, covers only very basic operations.
    I also drove the "Chopper & Change" scenario. As this begins, the engine has just been refueled. Why not have the driver do this? Of course, this would not be a driver's job, but who else is there? As the scenario proceeds, an instruction says that all yard points are hand thrown, but as the action moves along, most are changed automatically.
    There is a lot of AI traffic in the yards during this scenario, which adds a lot of what folks here call "immersion".
    The primary driver's seat swivels and its height can be adjusted, but so far, I've not encountered any mention or use of these capabilities.

    On the whole, I'm pleased with this engine, but. once again, no manual is available even though instructions for downloading it are provided after purchase.

    Sadly, this apparently is the last DLC package for TSW.
     
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  11. Thorgred

    Thorgred Member

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    and no manual available yet for this Loco
    while the tutorial points to a manual after finishing it
     
  12. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    Quite like it so far. Looks and sounds great. A few small issues, but no major bugs that i've encountered.

    The "Rail Freight" scenario has you hauling empty steel wagons from the freight branch near Saltburn back to Tees yard, and has plenty of AI traffic. Shame there isn't a similar run added to timetable mode, as i rarely see that part of the route, since IIRC, only the CL101 services run east of Lackenby. Haven't played the other 2 yet.

    Fyi, I believe the limestone wagons use vacuum braking, at least that was the only way i could get them to move- there is no indication of this in-game. These services are also very short (Tees Yard to Eaglescliffe, which is only a little over 3 miles). Didn't notice any limestone services from Redcar Ore to Tees Yard, but it was very late when i played, so i could have missed something.

    Braking selector defaults to "Air Braking- Passenger" for some unknown reason. There's a minor audio "pop" in the cab from time to time as well. Hopefully they'll do a bug fix when they do the DB BR 204 update, but i'm not counting on it. I play on Xbox 1 X, fwiw.
     
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  13. ex-railwayman

    ex-railwayman Active Member

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    The limestone wagon type is a PGA, the A stands for Air, which is the braking method, British Rail wagons were either air braked, vacuum or unfitted, which needed a guards van to be at the rear of the freight train consist which had a brake wheel inside so the guard could stop the goods wagons if necessary, if the train split in half, for example.
    The Class 20 locomotives were built in the late 1950s, with either air or vacuum brakes, some became dual braked in later life, I haven't a clue if DTG have fitted both types of brakes to these models, but, by rights if the freight wagons are air braked then that is what the locomotive should be as well.
     
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  14. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    Good info- maybe i got mixed up on that, or there was a bug. I will try again tonight and see what happens.
     
  15. Trenomarcus

    Trenomarcus Well-Known Member

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    That's a really nicely done loco. Good 3D model, sounds, physics. Few great details for immersion, like the hot plate. But unfortunately, the problem is always the same: gameplay. 55 minutes of new gameplay split between 4 timetable services, plus 3 normal scenarios. DTG should understand that this amount of gameplay is not acceptable. And considering that TSW2 scenario editor will not be usable on this or older DLCs, that's totally unacceptable. I couldn't recommend buying this.
     
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  16. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Well-Known Member

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    I'm very impressed with the class 20, it sounds great and drives nicely. My only criticism relates to the content, or lack of same. I did the three scenarios this evening and very good they are too. It's always nice to use track that hasn't been used before and leaving from the Boulby branch was a nice touch. Such a shame this wasn't included as a timetabled service in both directions. Also, once the steel wagons arrive at Tees yard, why not let us run round and take them to Lackenby steelworks? On another scenario, we take coke to Redcar with a pair of 20s. There were limestone wagons in a siding there but as far as I can see, there are no limestone trains to Redcar. So the only new content I've left to do is the four limestone trains from Eaglescliffe to Tees Yard and return. That's only a few miles, being able to take the wagons to Redcar and unload would have made a big difference. Luckily, we get to use the class 20 on steel and coal trains as well and that is appreciated. Maybe the same could be applied to the 31 before the route is "preserved".
     
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  17. Cyklisten

    Cyklisten Active Member

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    Really nice DLC, sadly the last one for TSW :( Guys, remember, don't touch the hot plate, as the hot plate can be hot!
     
  18. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Oh wow. They gave you a new consist of new wagons and just provided:

    x3 scenarios (and only one uses the new wagons)
    x4 very very short services (less than 15 miles in total....?)

    Is that right? Are you sure? And you will not be able to use this in the Scenario Planner in TSW2.....?

    Wowsers - I was literally about to get a voucher for PSN and buy this..... but if it has nearly zero new content..... Wow....!
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2020
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  19. smash_cze

    smash_cze Member

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    Finally i have bought class 20 and i have lot of fun!
    I rate this DLC as very good and i am very satisfied. I have finnished training and 2 scenarios.
    I recommend this DLC to everyone!

    pros:
    + train weight information in scenario 1 - we need train weight/lenght info always in timetables too!
    + no ugly doppler effect with double locos engines sound (finally!)
    + really great and realistic sounds of locomotive and other sounds too
    + better reaction of keypresses between horn 1 and horn 2
    + lot of smoke with more throttle (pls more black rather than brown ;-))
    + lot of railway traffic! TVL lives here!
    + possibility to run this locomotive on WSR too!

    cons:
    - horn should be heard from more far distance (old known bug)
    - incorrect sound volume levels after camera switching sometimes (old known bug)
    - no smoke after switching camera sometimes (old known bug)
    - external camera position after turn it on - why could not be this camera in front of the train all the time? Should be more intelligent or possibility to set its position relative to train
    - manual is missing again
    - i got "GP38 car collector" achivement with class 20... is it correct? I know it is for 360 couplings

    I hope this locomotive will be compatible with TSW2's scenario editor. And rest of my preserved collection too.

    Where is the update for BR 204 with bugfixes from Rivet Games?!?! I hope it will be available for download soon!!!

    Thank you DTG!
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
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  20. Railfan722

    Railfan722 Well-Known Member

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    The services are all Tees Yard to Eaglescliffe, which is strange given the actual working that they're supposed to represent went to Redcar for unloading. The PGAs are a bit of a strange choice for this - I personally would have gone with PBA potash wagons, and given a few Saltburn-Darlington runs, on which the 20s were a common sight. All in all, it doesn't seem like a terrible value for money, as the loco itself looks quite nice, but the services are a big letdown. I get the feeling that they were more of an afterthought, considering that TSW is in its last days and most of the attention has been put into the "sequel", which is just the same game repackaged with a few gimmicky editors plus core features that have been wanted for years.
     
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  21. Cyklisten

    Cyklisten Active Member

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    Plastic-synthetic, maybe you should change your nick to Toxic Guy because you are just killing our enjoyment with every DLC being released, pointing out things that most of us barely notice. Go and touch the hot plate in Class 20 right now please.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
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  22. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    From watching the stream...it looks like you can also drive any of the Class 37 services with the Class 20.....but yes, that is the added content with the class 20 dlc
     
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  23. mike370

    mike370 Active Member

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    Please look back at what you've just written & perhaps carefully re-consider just who is being toxic.

    Everyone's entitled to their own opinion about the game & any new content. You may disagree with other individuals' perspectives but there's absolutely no need to get personal. And unpleasantly so. He actually has a perfectly valid point, even if you dislike the somewhat cynical way it's perhaps expressed.

    But there's no escaping the fact, that unfortunately there is very little replayability with most of the TSW add-ons. And for many players this is a major concern. Once the very limited number of scenarios (which for the most part are short & rather lacking in imagination) have been played, what else is one going to do with their new 'toy'. Players are not going to be able to use it within other new routes in TSW2. Which is only a matter of a few weeks away. Also, DTG haven't yet created futher scenario packs for any of the historic add-ons to add potential further playing interest for these nice models (which if you ask me is such a tagic waste). Plus with no editor it's not possible for players to create further scenarios to continue enjoying their nice shiny new loco. Just like Rivet games recently released beautiful German shunter, the new DTG Class 20 has so much potential to be used in so many scenario types in a wide variety of routes. As surely many players would ideally chose to do - and naturally thought they would be able to just that at the outset of TSW1's launch a few years back.

    And that's why you get big spikes in recorded TSW gameplay immediately as each new DLC comes out, which then very rapidly nose-dives. People play the (very) limited driving content provided for their new add-on, then soon lose interest in the item. And that's one of the huge advantages of the TS1 game series, you're never going to run out of new interesting driving opportunities, being able to reuse your content again and again in endless ways. Whether that's career scenarios, standard scenarios, free-roams, quick drive - use of locos as player trains and/or AI. Creating all sorts of new consists including other locos and rolling stock from absolutely anything in your collection. Reuse of each DLC only being limited by one's imagination.

    All I'd say is do enjoy your Class 20 in it's 'preserved' state, since in just a few weeks time you're going to be able to do naff all new with it. And for perpetuity unless no doubt you rebuy it again at some point in the future when DTG sell it again remasterd for TSW2 and/or TSW3. From some fortunate folk I regularly hear it's 'only' £12 or £25, 'just a few beers - so I got my couple of hours enjoyment so what's the big deal if I never use it again'. For others, however, that just might be a signficant purchase for them & they'd really rather be able to get more use out of their new item. If they could, then I would agree the new Chopper would be a very fine buy for sure, even with a few minor niggles.

    But I guess I'm just being a killjoy as well ;)
     
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  24. Trenomarcus

    Trenomarcus Well-Known Member

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    You can drive the Class 20 on 31 other TVL services and on all 28 WSR services. But the new gameplay is limited to 4 services for a total of 55 minutes or approximately 15 miles.

    https://smtimetables.herokuapp.com/loco/76
     
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  25. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Funnily enough, it's things like seeing the hot-plate glow that very nearly induced me to buy the Class 20 last night. I am easily pleased, I guess.... But I am holding off for now - there's no rush. I can buy it for £12 at any time - or wait for it to cost £7. It does look good as a model, and sounds good (on the stream).... and both of these things will impress me more if I got my hands on it. No doubt about it.

    TVL is my favourite route, by the way - so I should be someone that would jump at the Class 20. But I find it really odd that they've built a new wagon, and hyped up the limestone services in the advertorial.... but that there is so little new gameplay. It's not like the Class 31 (a good buy). It's more like the disappointing Class 52 (and I should add Class 33 as well... but I am overly biased towards Class 33s.....). The Class 37 and Class 31 on TVL are both fabulous, and...well.... maybe they will be enough for me.

    I have various reasons for holding off on the Class 20. This includes the impending release of TSW, and actually understanding what the status of TSW DLC will be. There is also the June sale coming up next week... and maybe the TS1 Class 20 will cost £3 in the sale.... ;-)

    That said, I will be getting a £50 PSN voucher this weekend, as there is a vampire game (yes.... it's about a reluctant blood-sucker) that is on sale for £10..... and the other £40 might well burn itself into a TSW Class 20..... We'll see ;-)


    One last point - you shouldn't generally let anyone's views "kill your enjoyment".... but seriously... if seeing someone just ask a question to clarify the extent of content in a product..... "kills your enjoyment" of the Class 20... then that itself is a fairly strong indicator to me that your enjoyment of the product is not really on very stable ground.... which isn't really a great advert for the Class 20... is it....?
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
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  26. raildan

    raildan Well-Known Member

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    Ok, this is kind of a stupid question, perhaps... but can anyone who has bought the class 20 tell me if it has its own "journey mode" thing or not?
     
  27. Big Panda

    Big Panda New Member

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    I have added the Class 20 and verified the files BUT the Class 20 does not show the engine in my TIME TABLE mode in either of the supported routes....I get the scenarios ok, just that the engine does not show up in time table mode ???
     
  28. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Well-Known Member

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    class 20 have journey mode
     
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  29. Jeannot41

    Jeannot41 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, there are 25 trips for class 20.
     
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  30. dave55007

    dave55007 Member

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    In timetable, move the cursor along to the right past the existing locos. Its at the far right!
     
  31. Rob Jansen

    Rob Jansen Well-Known Member

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    Have you mods enabled such as the UK Loco all routes (or something that)?
    Remove the mod or update it if it ia updated with compatibility for the Class 20.
     
  32. SJA

    SJA Active Member

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    Those thoughts pretty much echo my views exactly. I have TSW and the only separate DLC I bought for it was East Coastway. It has a load of timetabled services which are good for route learning and mastering without the HUD... buuuuuut it's still a 377 running stoppers and depot shunts every single time (or indeed a 66 performing limited tasks).

    This keeps me coming back to TS1 over and over again. Not solely because I've invested a lot in it over the years and there's so much content (although those are big factors), but because of how flexible it is. Obviously I have my own little gripes with the glitchy scenario editor, but if I want to imagine a franchise change and 5-car HSTs running fast services on the Chiltern Line, for example, I can.

    For me personally, despite its superior graphics and minimal/no stuttering, TSW can't hold a handle to TS1, given TS1's quick drives for route learning, freedom of stock/consist choices, freedom of service choices/scenarios, varying route lengths/types and massive amount of third party and community content. I wonder how long a full Western Mainlines equivalent would take to develop for TSW, and what kind of beast of a machine it'd need to run it (plus it'd surely rule out consoles).

    TS1 is likely to see the lion's share of my train sim time for a long time yet I feel.
     
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  33. Wilbnil

    Wilbnil Well-Known Member

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    A great end for TSW1. The loco sounds great and there is nice attention to detail. Too bad this loco will be preserved in a matter of weeks after release.
     
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  34. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    I think you mean "scrapped". This is the right word. "Preserved" is DTG's marketing hype, but it really means "scrapped".
     
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  35. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Not quite so cynical here.
    There may be a chance that the class20 is more versatile than we think.
    It was developed while work on TSW2 was already underway and may have been built with the changes in mind.
    Even if not, it's still worth the money.
    I'll still be playing TVL after the new version comes out.
     
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  36. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    In railway terminology a ‘preserved’ loco is one which is lovingly restored to full working order and painted up like it is straight from the works that originally built it. It takes pride of place and is constantly maintained by dedicated and skilled enthusiasts. That doesn’t sound like what will become of our virtual trains. I don’t know if they are going to be scrapped but definitely neglected.
     
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  37. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    More basically, a preserved loco is on that's saved from the scrapheap by dedicated amateurs.
    Sounds a bit like TSx more than TSW
     
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  38. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Well-Known Member

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    very good class 20
     
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  39. jazznsf

    jazznsf Member

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    The thumbnail in my signature panel is preserved street car, called a PCC. The one pictured is No. 1057, painted in Cincinnati Street Railway Co. (CSR) livery. These cars were originally brought from all over the United States and restored by a private entity. The fleet is now vast, and runs seven days a week. They are beautifully restored, and - in my opinion - eclipse the infamous cable cars as a riding experience.

    You can learn more here if you're interested.

    Cheers!
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2020
  40. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    No offence but in what way is this relevant to the article or thread? It sounds like you’re self advertising something which really doesn’t belong in here.
     
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  41. jazznsf

    jazznsf Member

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    londonmidland - The streetcars I reference are a working example of preserved vehicles saved from the scrapheap, originally started by a group of dedicated amateurs.
     
  42. jazznsf

    jazznsf Member

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    I am actually rather amazed that anyone has purchased the Class 20, what with TSW being shunted to a siding in the "boneyard" in six weeks' time. And by some of the same folks complaining - rather loudly - about DTG?

    “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”
    - Misattributed to Albert Einstein
     
  43. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    How do you put a price on enjoyment?
    I’ve enjoyed the class 20 and expect I will continue to do so after the arrival of the update.
    It’s not suddenly going to stop working.
     
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  44. user763

    user763 New Member

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    Great work on the Claas 20. I haven't experienced any issues with the loco so far unless the red signal at that one scenario. Other than that good job.
     
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  45. jazznsf

    jazznsf Member

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    That's how I feel as well. I am new to TSW, but my experience so far has been very good, if not excellent. I've spent hours and hours on six different routes and they've all been really good.

    I'm perplexed by the amount of complaining I read on almost every forum, and how the same (very vocal) people doing the complaining are the first to purchase the new DLC. And complain about it!

    I'm encouraged by the number of positive comments about "The Chopper" however, so it may well find a place in my collection. As mentioned (above) it's not as though TSW or any DLC has an expiry date after which it simply will no longer load.
     
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  46. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Some people are very keen to see a fully functional Class 20 in TSW.

    With TSW2 just around the corner, and vague statements about "preserving" TSW content after 6th August 2020 seeming to imply that maybe "no future development" includes "no bug-fixing"... some of those same people might think that maybe there isn't much time to get the bugs addressed. So a quick purchase and immediate evaluation has become necessary. To get bugs addressed by Dovetail, at any time, you often have to make a very loud and highly vocal case for it...

    It's not that perplexing - it's actually really easy to understand.
     
  47. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    16:23 - No updates to bugs that are being reported are being worked on
    20:00 - No updates to existing content is planned
    21:52 - Any future updates to preserved content will apply only to TSW2 versions

    Yup, usual "no, no, yes"... I guess the only certainty there is that TSW1 and associated DLC are not going to get updates
     
  48. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    I think it is widely understood that after TSW2 launches, that the TSW content will not get updates. Or remasters with newly developed features.

    That does not preclude or exclude patches, fixes, maintenance and repair of existing defects. At least - that has not been made clear at any point, by anybody. If it is the case that there will be no bug-fixing, then it would be helpful if it could be made clear, otherwise people will be reporting bugs and expecting them to be fixed.

    It would be really unhelpful, for example, if DTG maintained a bug-reporting website, but did not make it clear that it was purely a facade.
     
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  49. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Okay - I think I have now seen enough of the Class 20 (on PS4 Pro) to come up with a Good/Bad/Ugly & Mad/Sad/Glad summary:

    Good
    - fantastic 3D model, including excellent underframe details, as well as 3D rendering of things like the loco fire extinguisher system handles (inside and outside), and nice details like the blue drain pipe and the opening external battery panel
    - really nice soundscape (when it is working, which is most of the time for me - but see Ugly section below)
    - really nice particle effects with the diesel fumes, nicely animated clag
    - very nice polarising sunscreen side-windows that give clouds a lovely solid look and a silver lining.... ;-)
    - a glowing hotplate (....but no steaming kettle..... or eggs & bacon.....? ;-) )

    Bad
    - low res textures on the externals, especially the strapping/bolts on the roof; this is nowhere near the quality of the exquisite Class 37, plus the overall texture brightness is too bright (faded/worn effect is good, but the brightness makes it look like a cartoon)

    Ugly
    - the viciously unstable LOD on the white marker lights, the marker disc flaps and the buffers
    - the horrific sound bug when too many sounds are loaded and they start clashing and cutting out

    Mad
    - extreme lack of content with the PGA wagons, basically there is nearly zero new content
    - no manual.... really... no manual...? despite the TSW senior producer in the tutorial asking you to look in the manual....?

    Sad
    - there is a fuelling cap and gauge, but no content that uses them.....?
    - no slow speed control for the coal unloader....?
    - some sort of unused anti-lock braking button (wheel slide prevention...?)... could be a TSW2 teaser....?

    Glad
    - significant improvement (in TSW) on train driving physics including power application and slip and brake timing/delay
    - really really nice modelling and animation of the buffers and couplings, including loco-loco, loco-PGA, and PGA-PGA
    - improvements to TVL including lighting and chimney particle effects (DTG should announce these upgrades)

    Verdict
    There is plenty of Good and quite a bit of Glad with the Class 20. But the Class 20 loco is a no go area until the horrific LOD and sound bugs are fixed, and should not be purchased unless DTG commit to fixing these issues. Ideally, some new content should be included for the PGAs, otherwise you are being seriously short-changed, even if the sound/LOD issues get fixed.

    On a more positive note.... the loco driving physics (power/slip and brake timing), and the general improvements to particle effects do point to a possible better future with TSW2 (including steam). The Class 20 (and TVL with the Class 37) could be regarded as a bit of a teaser.... a taste of what is to come in the future, with respect to adhesion modelling and wheel slip (and slide...?).
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2020
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  50. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    A good summary of the DLC. One thing I never mentioned in my first impressions thread is the wagons that come with the Class 20. I don’t like the look of them. I can’t exactly put my finger on why but to me they don’t look real (in the context of comparison with other trains and the route scenery). That’s not a massive problem because they don’t feature heavily when looking at the route as a full package but it adds to the disappointment I feel with the look of the Class 20 DLC as a whole.

    As you point out in your summary there are some good points to it. It provides a good driving experience and the sounds are great when not being overloaded (I’ve not experienced any overload yet). I like the faint hum of the heaters when you switch them on. It does actually make you feel quite warm.
     
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