Tsw2 Vr Support Release Date.

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by chieflongshin, Jan 3, 2021.

  1. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2020
    Messages:
    849
    Likes Received:
    849
    I spent a few hundred quid on Rail Driver on the promise it would be implemented in TSW2 but I am still waiting for the GWE (my reason for buying TSW2 in the first place) route to be incorporated with DTG saying it was an 'easy' thing to do. It is said that RH will bring more preserved routes compatible with RD but not all. I bet GWE is one of them.

    With VR I think a third party would have to do coding for it so it will have to pay for itself somehow. I'm sure if DTG deemed it viable it would go ahead.
     
  2. acro

    acro Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2018
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    50
    Not to under play the amount of work that goes into it, but actively enabling VR support within UE4 is not actually hard. What needs to happen is optimisation towards performance of the entire game and designing elements such as a control scheme and menus that work within VR. If we're talking just enabling 3D output with head tracking in an HMD, that is more or less as simple as ticking a button in the UE4 editor. So to that end, additional coding is not really required.

    I also believe that if it had VR support that might make it more appealing to the (small but growing) group of people who play VR casually. These people may not be interested in a Train Simulator normally but if it's VR compatible that makes it a more easy purchase because it's now something else to play in that medium. Derail Valley is a great example of this, if that game didn't have VR support it would not be anywhere near as big as it has become.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2021
    • Like Like x 1
  3. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Messages:
    931
    Likes Received:
    5,111
    As i've said numerous times previously - "enabling VR" (which is trivial but not at all releasable) and "making a VR game" (which is not at all trivial) are entirely different things.

    Derail Valley is a great example - I know lots of people who play it, and not a single one plays it for VR. I'd argue that if it had remained a VR only game it would have a significantly smaller playerbase than it does right now, not the other way around.

    I won't repeat my previous posts though, go read them.

    Matt.
     
    • Like Like x 7
  4. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2020
    Messages:
    583
    Likes Received:
    1,085
    I agree with Matt on this. For me Derail Valley is a great game, but I never play it in VR anymore. I played it a few times in VR, it was fun, but playing for any length of time was uncomfortable. It's the only VR game to have made me feel sick. I still love playing it normally.

    I am a big fan of VR (mostly for racing and rhythm based games), but I haven't voted it very high in the survey for TSW for the same reason as I don't use it for Derail Valley, I don't think I'd ever play it in VR. For me there are too many buttons and controls to be successful in VR. These would all need to be accessible on the controllers, or grabable as you can't see the keyboard. I also don't think it is smooth enough, although my frame rate is high, it is not constant and there are stutters. For me it just wouldn't work. Doesn't mean I don't think DTG shouldn't do it if enough people want it. Just my own preference. I'm also of the opinion, that there are ma ny other things that can be improved first.

    On the other side of things that DTG have actually developed... I'm a very recent convert to Track IR. This for me is a game changer for both TS2021 and TSW2. You still get to look around freely but you can still see all the keyboard controls. I'm still tuning my setup, but this has really improved my enjoyment of the game. I'm starting to prefer it to VR for some car racing games as well, although the experience of driving through the night in a Le Mans Race and seeing the sun rising in VR will likely never be beaten. My best gaming experience ever (but that's off topic)

    I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  5. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2020
    Messages:
    849
    Likes Received:
    849
    Tigert1966 I agree totally. I have also just got TrackIR, mainly due to Matt, I'm trying to set it up but it seems good. Can't wait to see it in TSW2 tbh. I too love VR (although with disability it has drawbacks) and at first thought it would be wonderful to see in TSW2 but as you said there are just too many buttons to keep track of, yes you could use a controller but not everyone likes to do so. Although it would help the consoles getting VR as well.

    Making TSW2 VR compatible imo would not be easy, Fallout 4 for example made a VR version which was in essence a separate game and imo a bit hit and miss with the controls. TrackIR is a good compromise and there are just so many more important things to address in TSW2 before they start to think about VR.
     
  6. rat7_mobile

    rat7_mobile Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2020
    Messages:
    439
    Likes Received:
    151
    Well from what I know, VR can not be use by those that wear glasses.
    So for someone like me that wear glasses, I would be blind in the headset, and then let imagine I can see something, every time that I would need to use the keybord, which is 99% of the game interaction, I would need to remove the headset, then put my glasses on type on the needed key, then remove the glasses, and put the headset back, and all that hoping I have not missed any signs that I need to respond to, so the PCB system in the greman trainset would be completely impossible
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    1,693
    Likes Received:
    2,485
    This is entirely untrue. I wear glasses and use VR with no problems at all.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  8. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2020
    Messages:
    849
    Likes Received:
    849
    Most decent headsets actually cater for people who wear glasses by providing a spacer, I'll admit it can sometimes be uncomfortable.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  9. rat7_mobile

    rat7_mobile Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2020
    Messages:
    439
    Likes Received:
    151
    First how do you get the glasses in the headset, and two, how can you focus, glasses are meant to have things at cretain distance usually an armlenght away to be cleared, image in the headset are maybe 2 iches from you eyes
     
    • Like Like x 2
  10. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2019
    Messages:
    1,503
    Likes Received:
    1,825
    I have the oculus quest. It has a spacer so you can accommodate a pair of glasses In it. Bear in mind the Vr glasses create depth so when you look around it “should” be like looking around the real world.

    The buttons thing I’m not sold on. There’s a lot more buttons in a plane on flight sim. As you’re sat there looking around your cockpit of 50-100 buttons all you do is control with mouse. You lean into look at what you want, pull the mouse and job done. It works on a sim where the plane moves across six axis , it will work looking down on a train cab where the vehicle has a single axis.

    I don’t understand the amount of work involved in converting tsw2 to vr and I take on board Matts earlier comments. Personally for me , fs2020 and all my racing sims are played only in vr now. Playing them 2d is such a let down now
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    1,693
    Likes Received:
    2,485
    PSVR fits glasses in the headset without any problem and, as chieflongshin said above, the lenses in the headset focus the image so your eyes are focused further away, as they would be if you were 'in' the virtual world. If you had to focus on an image as though it were right in front of your face, it would be incredibly uncomfortable and wouldn't feel anything like a virtual reality.

    Fit and focus may be less refined with those cheap mobile phone contraptions, but proper VR is obviously nothing like you imagine it to be!
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. acro

    acro Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2018
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    50
    Apologies, I didn't word what I was trying to say very well. I am well aware making an actual shippable product is far more than just clicking a button, what I was trying to get at was that it's not necessarily so much an issue of coding (and possibly having that outsourced like what was being suggested) but more so that a number of fundamental game elements would need to be reworked from the ground up to support such a change.

    I also completely agree with you that Derail Valley would not be anywhere near as successful if it had stayed being a VR only experience. I do however believe it benefits greatly from being a VR title though. I obviously don't have actual sales numbers or access to a hardware survey so this is very much speculation on my part, but I feel similar to putting TSW 2 on consoles having VR support would interest a larger audience who many not necessarily be into what they might perceive as a more "hardcore" simulation experience.

    In some ways VR almost makes it seem somewhat more "gamey" and thus more accessible even if that seems counter intuitive due to VR still being a rather niche market. I'm still well aware that support for it is not a priority, I have no issue with that and can completely understand why. I hope I managed to clarify myself a bit here and I certainly didn't meant to belittle the teams work, so my apologies if that was how it came across. Thanks for taking the time to respond.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2021
    • Like Like x 2
  13. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Messages:
    931
    Likes Received:
    5,111
    I require glasses to see anything at all, and have had no problems using any VR headset from Oculus DK1, DK2, GearVR, HTV Vive and Rift S. It's just not an issue. If you DO find it uncomfortable, you can get custom lenses made - unclip the ones that come with it and clip in your prescription made lenses and now you dont need to wear glasses at all. It's just not a problem :) In terms of focus - you're not looking at the screen to focus on it, you're looking at the image on the screen to focus on that - and since that creates an image for each eye that is separated to create depth you are actually focusing on something a sensible distance away and indeed you'll feel your eyes adjusting as you focus on things at different distances just as if they were real. The brain and our eyes are pretty incredible :)

    I agree that TSW VR would appeal to an audience that might not necessarily currently play the game, as well as some who currently do. The question that remains though is - would there be enough to warrant the costs of implementing it, and even if there was, would investment on other features actually benefit a much wider audience for the same amount of investment.

    Matt.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  14. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2019
    Messages:
    1,503
    Likes Received:
    1,825
    That's the million dollar question I guess always needs asking and answering may only be in implementation. I understand it would be a crazy amount of work. My thoughts (non commercially) would be that as soon as there was a video of TSW in VR running well on here there would be a lot of people potentially picking up the occulus.

    Could a commercial partnership be struck to help it be built? Would one of the train providers benefit from having a VR sim to help drivers route learn at home? Would this do better than Derail valley as its a lot more hardcore gamers?

    Id be interested to know how the question performed in the survey.
     
  15. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Messages:
    931
    Likes Received:
    5,111
    Oh i'm definitely going to be interested to see how VR performs in the survey - if I'm honest, I expect it'll be about the same but... I can but hope. :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2019
    Messages:
    1,503
    Likes Received:
    1,825
    Agreed.

    Is it likely the usage would be more than rail driver and track IR?. I guess they’re niche too (though I’d guess far simpler and cost efficient to implement)
     
  17. jamster47

    jamster47 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2020
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    66
    Hi Matt, thanks for your replies on this. I have completed the survey and put VR in top 3.
    I cannot ever drive a train in real life due to being red green colour deficient. This has always been a massive disappointment. Train sims have allowed me to go some way towards that experience but I would so love to see it in VR. I have flight sim 2020 and using my HP Reverb G2 it looks incredible and is a game changer.

    Maybe with TSW2 it could be a DLC that could help with extra costs involved. I obviously only speak for myself but I would pay good money for additional pack if it enabled me to drive say London to Brighton in VR
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2021
    • Like Like x 2
  18. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2019
    Messages:
    1,503
    Likes Received:
    1,825
    Agreed. I’m in same boat due to one ear being faulty. Years of my dad trying to tell me to go on railway and closest I made it was driving a gronk 30 years ago due to medical being out the question. I always see sims as a way to do things I can’t in reality. Nice post jamster47
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2020
    Messages:
    849
    Likes Received:
    849
    My brain and eyes are not as incredible as some, LOL. I suffer from a brain condition and one of the side effects is double vision, I can see well out of each eye but not both open at the same time and it varies from day to day. I wear Glasses that have prisms in to try and realign my sight. The only trouble is I have to have thick lenses to accommodate the prisms which can make it uncomfortable in a VR headset but as I said my sight varies so sometimes I can use the headset without the need for glasses still a headache tbh.
     
  20. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2019
    Messages:
    1,503
    Likes Received:
    1,825
    Sooooo Vr was at the bottom of the list.

    There's only one logical conclusion. Russian survey meddling..... :D (joking)

    Real shame, I guess its like electric cars in that we're early adopters.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  21. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2020
    Messages:
    583
    Likes Received:
    1,085
    Those damn Russians blocking our enjoyment of ‘Magic Science Helmets’.

    On the plus side Matt does seem very enthusiastic about it, so maybe one day…..

    I’m now eagerly awaiting the update so I can use Track IR. I tried it on the Epic games release and it was very good.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  22. anarchy99

    anarchy99 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2021
    Messages:
    38
    Likes Received:
    65
    I hope the survey is not the only feedback taken into consideration on this topic. I do not currently own VR equipment. One reason for this is the game I invest most time in (TSW2) does not support VR. If it did, I would purchase a VR headset in a heartbeat.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  23. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2020
    Messages:
    819
    Likes Received:
    1,510
    I also don't own VR equipment at the moment, but I still put it high in the list, as this is a feature that would be AMAZING and I would really like to see. Talking about immersion, I mean that is the king of immersion. And once TSW supports it, there would be no question about getting VR. I hope that the implementation of TrackIR is the first step towards VR support. However, I am not sure if there is a "universal" system that would work with all the different manufacturers for PC, and then also PS and Xbox.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  24. bakedpotatos.jm

    bakedpotatos.jm Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2020
    Messages:
    425
    Likes Received:
    746
    Do you have email alerts set up? Thats how I found out about the survey I received an email.
     
  25. boebsie

    boebsie New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2021
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    9
    What about mouse implementation? I only fly MSFS in VR and it's actually easier to use your mouse in VR than on a monitor. You just have to look and use your mouse. Trains are way less complex than a plane, it would be rather easy in a train.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  26. nascarjake

    nascarjake New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2021
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    4
    Just came here to say I wasn't able to vote in the survey but hope TSW eventually comes around to implementing VR support.

    Right now I've pretty much stopped train running all together - waiting for derail valley to release train mods in December to give some open variety to the best VR train experience ive had to date (honestly probably the best VR experience, and train experience separately as well).

    I have TS but probably wont get TSW unless it goes VR. I honestly never played TS that much until I got Rolling Line and then Derail Valley for VR beginning this year. That made me crave passenger trains - the kind i used to ride as a kid. So in a way VR brought me to an interest in trains.

    I read through this thread that SimRail might do VR? ill have to look that up.
    Understand and respect everyone's wishes that the devs stick to features that you don't need to spend a bunch of money on equipment to enjoy (besides the raildriver i guess, but understand that's a legacy controller (i think, first time i heard of it)).

    Hope to come back to TSW someday after promised features are delivered and the community doesn't mind sparing some development cycles for some amazing Dovetail train VR goodness
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2021
    • Like Like x 4
  27. tbaac

    tbaac Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    263
    Likes Received:
    239
    Just my opinion but I'm not sure on the "VR is amazing in flight sims therefore would be likewise in train sims" argument. For one thing, I use TrackIR. I hate flying without TrackIR now as it makes it so natural to just look out the window, or to look round the yoke, just by moving my head. TrackIR is nice in TSW2 (so thanks for the support DTG) however it isn't as vital imho. I think the same is true for VR. Plummeting towards the ground at 300 kts with a VR headset on will be more visceral than anything VR-related in a train sim I think.

    Regarding glasses with VR, what if you wear varifocals? As I understand it from the posts above, you focus at various distances rather than just at long distance? I'm not sure if peering down my nose at the knobs in a 737 or at the gauges in a freight loco would work that well.
    Thanks.
     
  28. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Messages:
    931
    Likes Received:
    5,111
    VR is more about that sense of presence. TrackIR is not quite the same thing and I totally agree with your assessment that TrackIR is optional for TS but nigh on mandatory for Planes - I am very much of the same opinion. When it comes to VR however, it's not essential for either, but adds an equivalent amount of presence (the feeling of being there). Sure, flying towards the ground at great speed is going to be a bit more intense than anything in a train sim, but the vast majority of experiences in flight sim are probably much closer to what you get in Train Sim. I personally prefer flying in VR, but not because of any intensity etc, purely because of the feeling of being there - and that's no different in Trains.

    Matt.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  29. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    1,693
    Likes Received:
    2,485
    I agree with this and actually, the brilliant thing about VR is the close up stuff. Distance is generally easier to view on a crisp 4K monitor, but it's the physical machine around you which is best viewed in VR. In GT Sport, for example, you're less able to judge things in the distance because of the lower resolution that's used for the particular part of your VR view which is displaying the track through the windscreen, but you can spend hours taking in the amazing detail and the weave of the carbon fibre inside a Pagani Zonda. With Ace Combat 7, you're more looking at the locations of the planes on the HUD rather than the physical models way off in the distance so your whole view is this rugged cockpit with the screens, the controls, the reflections off the inside of the canopy, and the landscape around you is almost secondary, just giving you the sensation of your position in the air.

    I think for making you feel like you're really inside the trains, with a proper sense of their scale and the space or lack of it in the driver's compartment, nothing will come close to VR. For those people who claim to be all about the immersion, actually spend time sitting in the passenger compartments, and complain that the seat fabrics aren't quite right, VR support in TSW2 should be right at the top of your priority list. You just may not be able to read speed limit signs right off in the distance... :D
     
    • Like Like x 1
  30. tbaac

    tbaac Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    263
    Likes Received:
    239
    I do think that we don't need to write RD off as a VR-based peripheral for trains. The rows of blue buttons aren't really that practical when you can't look at them, but all the levers have an individual feel to them, and that combined with the buttons on a HOTAS throttle, and then a mouse for the other stuff could be good. Maybe. :)
     
  31. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Messages:
    931
    Likes Received:
    5,111
    Honestly for me its all about the motion controllers. I dont want anything else. Derail Valley proved this was the right way to do it, imho. :)
     
    • Like Like x 2
  32. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    1,017
    Likes Received:
    2,385
    I have to agree with this sentiment - have been a strong proponent and early adopter of VR since the original HTC Vive was released. I find it almost essential for flight simulation - but the lack of motion control support does add a lot to the experience. I do like my honeycomb yoke and saitek throttle, but hate going to the mouse to actuate everything else, (Radios, GPS ect). I do have a rail driver for TS and TSW2 and like the yoke for flying - would use it for the brakes, throttle and reverser - but would want motion controllers for everything else -- and probably would migrate to the controllers exclusively
     
  33. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2019
    Messages:
    1,503
    Likes Received:
    1,825
    Half life all blew me away.
    Novel things like picking up a pen and writing, pulling switches, opening doors etc.

    When I played with no cable on oculus, and walked through the sewers with things jumping out and a surround sound on it was a gaming epiphany. I was there for all I knew.

    I know there’s Vr advocates, Vr tried but not for me and Vr I’ve not tried it but hate it’s. Until thE advocates are louder it will be an expensive gamble for any developer.

    however in front…..


    • Doing a cold start
    • Walking along train to caboose
    • Experiencing ice
    • Sitting in the carriages
    • Picking up that fuel hose
    • Pressing that alerted
    • A throttle you grab virtually like the big pc flight sim (not 2020)

    These moments of feeling like your pulling into Brighton, leaving boston I’ll be incredible (hardware and all the other factors being factored in)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  34. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    1,693
    Likes Received:
    2,485
    There is that, but also the consideration that people with VR will be actively looking for VR experiences and might pick up TSW because it has a VR option, even if it's not the full game. I picked up Ace Combat 7 purely because one of the reviews said it was worth the entry price for the VR alone - I think they were absolutely right, but I've also since played through the full Campaign outside of the VR option several times over. And bought DLC...
     
    • Like Like x 2
  35. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2020
    Messages:
    849
    Likes Received:
    849
    From my understanding of Fallout 4 VR then had to rewrite most of the code to fit in the motion controllers But if DTG wanted to test the waters with VR then they could use a normal gamepad controller, I think I would even prefer it if they did, I haven't the room to wave motion controllers all over the place, lol.

    I do think it would take TSW2 to a different level. Then again it would be all down to what type of headset and platform hey sell on. The last headset I had was a Windows mixed reality headset and imo it was great and no need for those impractical satellite boxes, Or I think that the Quest 2 is compatible with windows if plugged in? Not sure on the range but price will be a factor I am sure.

    Someone mentioned about using Varifocals with VR. I use Varifocals due to my double Vision and have prisms in both the lenses and still my vision changes day to day. You would think VR would be a nightmare but it isn't. My experience is with the WMR, Quest and PSVR headsets and have used the glasses in all of them and can play for hours I even play without them sometimes and can play just at good on better vision days, lol.
     
  36. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2021
    Messages:
    380
    Likes Received:
    556
    There's a million things I'd rather DTG spent their finite resources doing to make the game better than waste time on VR support.
    Thankfully it seems I'm not in a minority in this view.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  37. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    1,017
    Likes Received:
    2,385
    That is a nice thing about being able to share opinions -- I would like to see VR support added to the simulation so would not see their efforts as a "waste of time" . But I am not going to get to bothered over it if they don't either. It is all personal preference anyway and I would not want to be the one to begrudge another's desire. Will VR happen? - probably not, that is the realist in me... would it be nice? - for me, yes, but that is the dreamer and optimist side. Would I want to alienate anyone over my opinion? Not really, but if that happens, I can't control their reaction so I don't worry about that aspect.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  38. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2019
    Messages:
    1,503
    Likes Received:
    1,825

    We can only hope the new executive producer gets his way to try it :D:D
     
    • Like Like x 2
  39. boebsie

    boebsie New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2021
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    9
    Can't agree more, this is the big difference. In VR those little things become more significant. And trains are all about the little things, beautiful interiors, looking out of the window in a passenger seat or cockpit. Just enjoying the sheer scale of things, being there! I never really liked making my own skin, but now in MSFS I do like it. Because you actually feel connected to the plane, you feel like you own the plane and you want to make it your own.
     
  40. rpeterbroughlowe

    rpeterbroughlowe Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2020
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    112
    2d screen = night
    VR = Day

    Like with all new stuff, DTG will need to lead from the front with this one. People are not going to vote for something which they don't have/never tried.

    if VR for PS5 and Xbox is possible for TSW, then I think we'll have more hope.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2021
  41. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2019
    Messages:
    1,503
    Likes Received:
    1,825
    I do think it will be a huge financial risk, a massive “you’ll need a beast pc” risk but equally it’ll only take a few videos to start dripping out onto youtube of people walking round those models or driving Dresden at night and I think it will grow a decent user base.

    VR is basically electric cars. I prefer my v8 at the moment but several friends have electric, they’ll convert more people to that than a I will a new v8
     
  42. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    1,693
    Likes Received:
    2,485
    field-of-dreams-costner-build-it-bro.gif :D
     
  43. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Messages:
    931
    Likes Received:
    5,111
    This is one of the biggest hurdles that VR has - because seeing a video of someone using VR is actually far more nauseating that experiencing it in VR, and offers none of the benefits. Therefore it serves only to extend the belief that VR == sickness falsely.

    If you watch a video of someone using VR you'll see that the camera moves all over the place - because to me using the headset, i'm stationary looking around a world and it's marvellous, my brain is 100% happy with these movements because it feels my head making them and sees the right response through my eyes. To you watching the video, the screen wont stay still, it's all over the place and difficult to follow. If I am careful and don't move my head around much it's less of a problem - but what you're left with is fundamentally no different to if I was using it in pancake mode.

    Therefore, the usual and obvious "viral marketing" doesn't really work for VR. We need to find a better way to share the experience, pancake media doesn't work for VR experiences.

    (I don't mean "pancake" in a derogatory fashion, to be clear, it's just become a simpler way of distinguishing between a 3D image on a 2D plane vs a 3D image on 3D environment)

    Matt.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  44. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2021
    Messages:
    380
    Likes Received:
    556
    VR has the possiblity of ending up like 3D movies, poeple think everyone will want it, but in reality very few will pay extra for and the economies of scale tip it in the bin.

    Im not saying it will definitely happen in the same way but I do think its distinct possibility and major risk. Given the choice between a new DLC or VR support which would you want most?
     
  45. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    1,693
    Likes Received:
    2,485
    VR support, actually. I've got loads of DLC and the new ones are quite detailed, so the chance to explore the trains in detail and really feel the scale of those big American locos from the trackside would add significant value, rather than just having the camera floating over it as though it's a Hornby model.

    Are you replying from a position of having tried VR and found it displeasing for some specific reason, or just don't fancy the idea of it?

    Edit to add: I also own an active 3D TV and think it's a better 3D experience than most cinemas this side of an IMAX. Yeah, it was a bit of a gimmick when I bought it, but it wasn't much more than the non-3D version of the same TV and actually, the films that are done properly are incredible experiences. Watching the guy slo-mo falling down the tower in Dredd, the bits of debris and reflections on visors in Gravity, or seeing the tiny bits of plankton floating around the ocean in Finding Nemo are spectacular cinematic features that you get absolutely no sensation of in the 2D versions. Also: Emily Blunt doing yoga in Live Die Repeat - in 3D - worth it for that alone. :D
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2021
    • Like Like x 1
  46. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Messages:
    931
    Likes Received:
    5,111
    Personally i'd go for VR support because there will always be room for new DLC.

    The major problem with 3D movies was that the studios jumped on it in the quickest cheapest most terrible way possible and very little "3D" was actually 3D, only some rare gems like Tron and Avatar, or Hugo for example were actually produced / recorded in 3D. Many many other so-called 3D things are literally just 2D that has been "decoupaged" into distance-layers.

    If you're not familiar with the term Decoupage - it's a technique used by paper-crafters (and possibly others) who create 3D effect art by layering things on top of each other. It's a series of 2D layers on top of each other that create the sense of depth, but isn't truly 3D because at the wrong angle, the illusion is shattered. It works well for papercraft, very well, but it's a really cheap and nasty way of producing a so-called 3D movie.

    End result, they cheapskated themselves out of the tech. It wasnt because the tech was bad or expensive - my living room TV has 3D support (as does my bluray player), didn't cost any more than any other TV at the time, and the glasses were cheap and quite comfortable even for someone like me who wears glasses anyway. 3D Bluray probably represents the last time I actually bought discs, too, once 3D died off I quit buying bluray and we just stream now. My wife and I would always also attend the 3D screenings of movies at cinemas if they were available - the glasses for our local Odeon are literally still in the car :)

    I think that to some extent the problem may have been that 3D productions were more expensive to make than 2D but probably didn't have the returns to justify it, so they cheapened it which then turned off the 3D early adopters and finally killed it. I think it probably needed some courage to progress in spite of early low returns, so that production costs and methods came down - but ultimately if the end result isn't a greater income, what's the point, i guess?

    VR is different IMHO - you can't really "cheapskate" it and you don't need to, because computers have been generating full 3D images and squashing them on to a flat screen for decades now, so rendering two different camera points to create a proper 3D image is easy and even that's not new - we have had a couple of iterations of those 3D stereo glasses over the past while. Cost-wise, Oculus have the Quest 2 coming in at £299 which means its in the ball park of lower priced consoles and that's a price point people are proven happy to pay for if there's justification to do so - and that's entirely down to the experiences.

    There are a growing number of really top notch VR experiences available, too.

    IMHO we are potentially heading towards a turning point in VR, with Oculus and Sony leading the way by far.

    All my personal opinion of course.

    Matt.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  47. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2021
    Messages:
    380
    Likes Received:
    556
    Ive tried it after being gifted a 2nd hand unit from a mate who couldnt get on with it and actually quite enjoyed using it (for horror games especially), but I dont think its worth the upfront investment, and when my broke after a year or so, I didnt have any inclination to purchase a replacement either new or 2nd hand. Maybe as prices comedown I'll dip my toe in again.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  48. tbaac

    tbaac Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    263
    Likes Received:
    239
    Some great points Matt. I've also got a 3D tv and a few 3D movies. I saw one of the Star Wars films in 3D at the cinema as well I think. I've a GTX1070 at the moment and suspect that I'd need a new graphics card and obviously a headset to take advantage of VR. That's one downside for me. The other is the isolation that it provides which is a double-edged sword. I'd get the benefit of being in the developer's own-little-world, but also know that someone would be standing behind me quietly saying "You still playing that? We need to go shopping.." :)
     
    • Like Like x 2
  49. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Messages:
    931
    Likes Received:
    5,111
    1070 is perfectly fine to be honest - I've been using VR a lot since my 970 (which was the original spec for VR) so i'm sure a 1070 will run it fine. As with anything, the more the merrier, but, 1070 ought to cope.

    Nothing I can do about people tapping their feet and asking you to go shopping tho :-D

    Matt.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  50. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2020
    Messages:
    849
    Likes Received:
    849
    I used to have a 3D monitor and the nVidia 3d which they conveniently dropped just after I bought it. Must say I really liked 3d, it was more than a 'gimmick' to me as it helped my eyesight. Also it had a sort of 'upscaler' where you could play games and it would add a 3d effect to the game. Some games were better than others and although it wasn't 'true 3d' it helped me loads.

    The biggest problem with VR for TSW2 would be imo the control system. Personally I would like the controller to be a gamepad like the Xbox one controller. I know people like the experience of waving their arms about and using the wands but for me it is just the visuals.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2021

Share This Page