Tsw2 Vr Support Release Date.

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by chieflongshin, Jan 3, 2021.

  1. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Do you use oculus Matt? There’s a file called oculus mirror and I thinks something else I used to stabilise the jittering you get when capturing. Doesn’t kill it but stops it looking as bad.
     
  2. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    that question will only be accurately answered if you have a headset though.

    Owning a headset I’d take the vr.
     
  3. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I do think the controls would be an interesting compromise.

    it would be easier On a pad ,I think but I play flight sim with a pad and keyboard and can muscle memory my way to what I need. I do think with the acceleration and brake keys you’d probably get away doing it with a keyboard whilst being in the world. I can’t really think of any other keys that are going to trash your drive if you can’t find key quick (horn,lights etc)
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2021
  4. rpeterbroughlowe

    rpeterbroughlowe Active Member

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    my old 1070 smashed DCS VR out the park
     
  5. tbaac

    tbaac Well-Known Member

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    Good to know. Out of interest, was this recently and what headset were you using?
    (btw, why did you upgrade it?)
    I upgraded my PC a few months ago but kept the 1070 as it is still reasonably good (for TSW and flight sims) and new graphics cards were crazy expensive.

    Thanks.
     
  6. rpeterbroughlowe

    rpeterbroughlowe Active Member

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    I was using Oculus CV1.

    I upgraded because I fancied the HP Reverb G2, which needed a better card to do what I wanted it to do, that's all really.
     
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  7. tbaac

    tbaac Well-Known Member

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    Cool, thanks for that.
     
  8. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Well, VR support since new DLC will keep coming either way since that is the funding source for the company.

    Either way, it is a questioning of patience… while I am doubtful VR will be implemented, if it is, then new DLC is just delayed and not forsaken forever. Question is- Can the revenue stream be sufficient for DTG while delaying the DLC and will the time spent implementing VR result in an increase ( or maintaining ) an acceptable ROI…. On this, the jury is still out.
     
  9. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Raildriver would be perfect for VR. I use a HOTAS and the Honeycomb Yoke in VR all the time in my flight simulators.
     
  10. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Do you think so? I have the RD but with a VR headset on won't it get a bit fiddly? The two rows buttons at the bottom would be frustrating to use no? That is why I suggested a gamepad type controller as all the buttons are easily at hand no?
     
  11. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    Agree - gamepad would definitely be preferable. By its very nature, you don't have to see it to use it and most of the controls are muscle memory after a short while playing (which is why it's so annoying being forced to switch to Classic mode for older route scenarios).
     
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  12. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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  13. feathers632

    feathers632 New Member

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    You have a very antiquated view of VR. Are you aware that pretty much all racing and flight sims support VR now? Non-VR users often quote useless facts such as the ratio of non-VR to VR users for games. They fail to understand that VR is a massive growth industry and it has always been a growth industry on an upward development trend.

    The lack of VR interest specifically in the train sim community is probably more down to the type of person who wants to drive a train. No worthwhile flight sim will ignore VR now... why? Because it's the most compact and powerful way to be fully immersed. Sitting in a life-size cockpit without the expense of a physical cockpit. Even for the physical cockpit builders - VR is now a viable addition thanks to the development of Varjo. Mixed reality is now a working thing where a virtual pilot can sit in a real cockpit and experience the flight sim in VR.

    VR is a big growth industry and the proof of that is the investment Facebook is making into the next generation of VR hardware and now the construction of a metaverse. VR is heading inexorably towards mainstream. It is an INEVITABLE technology. It's a compact and powerful way to bring someone fully into the computer's world. The fact that the train sim community doesn't get this doesn't mean anything other than they are somewhat set in their ways.

    "I think most people are the same. Wanting to completely shut out the real world when playing a game, or doing anything similar, seems a very alien and un-human thing to do." << here you are speaking for "most people" and yet VR is a massive growth industry so the most people clearly aren't paranoid about being shut-off from the so-called real world.

    Are you aware that Nvidia and ATI include hardware VR acceleration on every GPU? Are you aware that VR has progressed to the point where it has dedicated displays developed along with powerful mobile processors developed exclusively for powering this tech?

    It's sad that the train sim community are somewhat antiquated in their view but not really surprising. This will change over time but it will be a long time perhaps. All it takes is one of the big train sim devs to bring VR for everything to change. Flight and racing sims should be a warning to you of what's coming... but apparently not given by your statements :)
     
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  14. fakenham

    fakenham Well-Known Member

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    VR for flight and car simming is incredible. Save yourself £120,000 to train to be a pilot with a type rating and buy Xplane 11 with the detailed Zibo 737 mod (a free mod!), stick on VR and it's incredibly close to the real thing.
    Currently having great fun being a F1 driver in VR, trying to beat lap times in Asetto Corsa with the incredibly cheap 2021 F1 hybrid. Driving around Monaco with all the bumps etc with a wheel and pedals is amazing.
    I'm sure VR in a train sim will be as good.
    Looking forward to future developments, luckily it seems as if Matt is hooked as well.....
     
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  15. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    The problem with quoting growth as a statistic is that if 15 people have something and 15 more people get that thing then that's 100% growth. Great, right? Except that means 30 people have it.
    The better statistic is how many people out of a certain demographic have such an item. So if you said that 10% of all flight sim players have and use VR on a daily basis, and this is due to hit 50% in two months then people might stand up and listen, but that's not the case.

    It also may be down to those who drive trains are primarily involved in looking forward. Driving a train doesn't have much reason to look backward except if you have to poke your head out to see if the doors are shut. In a cockpit you would have switches and so on all around you, but in a train the ones you use when moving are all in front and most of the point and concentration of a driver is to see where they're going rather than looking around

    VR has it's uses, and I'm sure facebook wants to rule the world on all tech but until the tipping point of 33 or 50 percent of available users are using it routinely it won't be "mainstream" even if it's an available tech from the producer's point of view
     
  16. feathers632

    feathers632 New Member

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    VR is still many years from mainstream... however it is creeping towards that point. I would say at least 10 years away unlike some click-bait tech journalists who claim it's going to happen "next year".

    The thing about driving a train in VR though is being in the cabin, everything life-size and when combined with a vibration system becomes quite a believable experience. I personally grew tired of staring at tiny 2d rectangle displays years ago. At the very least I would want a projection system for the experience.
     
  17. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Couldn’t agree more. I tried oculus mirror and even looking at a flat but huge representation of the cab made the game so much better, was just a shame it wasn’t 360 immersion. Most nay sayers have never tried. It’s like me belittling electric cars because I prefer my 4.4v8. I’ll sing all day long my Range Rover is better as a diesel but the reality is the electric cars gaining popularity and I’ll likely change. I’ve never driven electric but I just think it’s wrong. It’s similar with vr, most who think it’s a fad have never tried it.
     
  18. jamster47

    jamster47 Member

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    I’ve driven a manual car for 20 years. Proper driving. none of that auto rubbish……… Will always have a manual……..

    Reluctantly got an hybrid auto car this year as I felt it was right time to dip into electric. My god! It’s incredible, so smooth, comfortable to drive and an absolute game changer with MPG north of 70mpg.

    My point, you have really got to try VR before you dismiss it. Even if you are only facing forwards the depth and 3d effect you would get from ‘sitting in the cab’ will be jaw dropping and make you feel like you are driving. Better sensation of speed and movement.

    I have VR in flight sim and when taxiing along in a A321 you feel the whole cockpit around you. You look out the window and the ground is 4 metres below you or as you are climbing you can see the clouds above the plane before you go through them.

    I will never play flight sim in 2d on a monitor ever again as there is just no point once you have done VR in 3d.

    If it ever happens in TSW2 take my money now!
     
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  19. trainsimgaming1001

    trainsimgaming1001 Well-Known Member

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    The thing with VR is that it would only be useful to those who have or are getting a VR Headset. The majority of the Community do not have VR headsets and I doubt those on the console would even be able to use VR. It would be too much work for Dovetail's Part for something that would only be usable by those who use VR. Heck, on a Survey at the end of last year, Dovetail released details saying that out of all the votes, VR was at the very bottom
     
  20. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I think ps5 is developing its vr scope again. Xbox is a dead horse I agree. The oculus is a good price entry point, I think half the battle and speaking from experience is knowing what headset to choose.

    I don't think it will move from the bottom of the list whilst it's a concept . Multiplayer naturally going to be high as everyone has a game which is I'd envisage. When people have a decent vr train sim and its publicised i think it will grow in popularity
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2021
  21. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    So it depends on what view people want. Some are happy with a small monitor, some with a 56" TV, others want their eyes covered with panoramic views. That's all great, but the people at the extremes are just that, extreme and until it's mainstream, the dev time / commercial gain balance is off
     
  22. feathers632

    feathers632 New Member

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    A lot of 2d games have been upgraded with VR by small, medium and large developers. I think we're making it into some massive task requiring millions of dollars and thousands of hours. One game was upgraded to VR by one of the dev team in his spare time.

    Ultimately dovetail will decide and probably not in favour of VR unless the competition delivers it. You could say flight sim users who use VR represent an "extreme" small end of the market. That didn't stop flight sim devs from adding VR. The point is they understand it's a big growth market in spite of the claims of many non-VR users who claim otherwise.

    Likewise, racing sims VR users represent a small percent of sim racers. There would have been people saying exactly the same as you on those forums... it didn't stop race sim developer from bringing VR.
     
  23. feathers632

    feathers632 New Member

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    Quest 2 and future Quest hardware represents an affordable entry into PC VR. It works wirelessly as well and the image quality is excellent. All it takes is one train sim developer to bring VR for things to change.
     
  24. feathers632

    feathers632 New Member

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    Exactly. Try DCS World on a flat screen versus VR. The difference is stunning. On a flat screen you see a miniature compressed image, the cockpit looks like a cartoon. In VR you are sitting in a life-size cockpit surrounded by photo-realistic cockpit instrumentation. In essence, a 2d monitor sucks the life out of DCS world. If you've never tried VR or have limited exposure then you don't miss something you haven't experienced. For those who use it on a daily basis - going back to a flat display isn't an option.

    The argument that only 1% uses VR isn't a good argument either. It fails to understand the growth of the industry and the massive amounts of money being put into next generations of VR hardware.
     
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  25. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Personally, I would imagine that getting the images to the clarity that the wolfpack on here would expect (true 4k realism) may well take a few hours, and then testing etc etc
    And the only thing stopping DTG doing the same is DTG... we're just spitballing here
     
  26. feathers632

    feathers632 New Member

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    True 4k realism looks great because it's viewed at a great distance. If current VR (Quest 2/HP Reverb 2) are good enough for mil pilots then it's good enough for train simmers. People tend not to understand some key things about VR. 1832x1920 per eye is effectively higher because stereoscopic depth increases the effective resolution. I don't see too many VR sim users complaining about image quality in VR. I think as a non-VR user you can come up with a whole bunch of reasons why VR shouldn't happen to a train sim. Meanwhile... over in flight and racing sim world it's a very different story. It's not the case that image clarity is somehow not required for something like DCS either... it's quite the reverse.. it's very important. Being able to visually resolve distant targets, having clear HUD symbology etc.
     
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  27. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I don't see too many people complaining like the people on here complain...
     
  28. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't bank too much on your 4k in VR unless you have a £4-5k pc and I think even then you'd be lucky. I run mine through a 2080ti. Flight sim works adequately. Assetto corsa looks nice too. Would I want a better resolution, of course, would I want a better framerate, of course. Would I trade these for a flat monitor? In most instances no.
     
  29. feathers632

    feathers632 New Member

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    :o:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
     
  30. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely. But we know people on this forum will expect...
     
  31. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    you mean 4K resolution, 120fps and a potato sat on the desk running it. Equally this needs to be same on Xbox one and PS4 :D
     
  32. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Yep, but you forgot the switch lite and N64
     
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  33. rpeterbroughlowe

    rpeterbroughlowe Active Member

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    For some reason train sim fans seem the most antiquated of sim fans generally speaking. I think it boils down to how the genre really started. For the most part, you could get away with running MSTS on a potato and get reasonably good quality addons for a donation or even free.

    Meanwhile flight sim fans are more forward thinking as the genre is more mature I guess? No one in the FS community expects to play MFS or DCS on a 10 year old pc and expect to play in VR etc. It seems DTG have to really try hard to make their products work for people with low end rigs and ancient consoles. Fair play to them for that - but it shouldn't slow it down for the rest.

    The models in TSW are beautiful and that's kinda wasted without VR IMO. When I tried VR for the first time and saw inside the cockpit, I thought 'Oh they really did build a cockpit didn't they?..So this is what 3D is' Things come alive in a way that they never truly could before.

    Keep plugging away. I don't think VR for TSW is a numbers game, I honestly think they will implement it now Matt is a Exec :)
     
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  34. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    How dare you...LOL. Not all Train sim fans are against VR. Personally I'd love it. Something like a Quest 2, prefer something else but as affordable so I wasn't forced into a facebook account. But people here dead set against it should chill and not get so uptight no-one is forcing you to use VR but you would be missing out. I'd be happy with a decent headset and a controller and I'd be happy has Larry whoever Larry is. Could you imagine what VR would be like when we eventually get steam? It would be awesome.
     
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  35. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    That's the weird thing. Everyone's on here banging on about immersion all the time in relation to petty little details being incorrect ("Oooh, the headlight surround isn't the right shape, such an immersion breaker") but then can't see the benefit of actually sitting with the train all around you, walking through the carriages or walking up to a big American loco with the feeling of scale that you can only really get from VR.

    Even on the most basic of VR demos you get it - there's a PS VR Worlds demo where you're in a diving cage underwater and a shark approaches from the darkness. Watching it on screen it's cool and a bit sinister, but in VR it's huge; it absolutely fills your whole view, it's threatening and it makes you feel tiny in comparison.
     
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  36. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    An interesting question is whether an upgrade to VR would have to be done route by route or whether once the tech is developed you could flip a switch and all the routes/locos would be available in VR.

    A major piece of work is obviously the GUI and making that VR friendly plus whether people want to still look at the dials and levers and use those or whether they are happy controlling a train by a handset. Once that conversation is decided, could it be rolled out quickly or would it be a job for Adam's team?
     
  37. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    I'd imagine it would be primarily a UI issue, less so on consoles where everything is accessible from the gamepad, more on PC where people might need to see their keyboard. Since the world is already designed to have a good look around, I wouldn't expect it to need much adjustment that regard.
     
  38. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Part of my agrees here part doesn’t…..

    flight sim vr is a weird one but you do eventually begin to know where things are with muscle memory. Driving games I rarely touch my keyboard. I think I with train sim it’s going to require either an ability to learn your keyboard and do it through the headset or the controllers are used to physically move controls. Personally I think this is a good way, this was done successfully in DCS world
     
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  39. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    If DTG adopt VR controllers it will require more work taking the gamepad use even for PC would be the most logical imo. To start with anyway.
     
  40. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Derail Valley has the VR controls down pretty well to manipulate the “physical” controls with the motion controllers. And for those talking about immersion, having to actually reach and flip a switch versus push a key on a keyboard can’t be beat.

    I thoroughly enjoy VR in my flight simulations, and talking about immersion in other things, try Half-Life Alyx, it is an experience to behold (I know, at 65 -still a kid). Is it a niche market, yes, but so is train simulation and in comparison to the general gaming market, so is flight simulation. Would I like to see VR in TSW2, sure. Will I throw my toys out of my pram if not - no way. BUT if you really want immersion, VR can provide it.
     
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  41. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I couldn't agree more about Half Life. I recall the first time I went into the tunnels, playing in the evening, long day at work and suddenly i'm faced with facehuggers and all sorts. It's the first game that actually made the hairs on my hairs stand up when played in VR.

    I'm sure a similar thing could be felt when a red signal is getting closer faster than you want it too!

    On a tangent, for the "vr is a niche thing that wont catch on" here's a quick read

    https://www.vrfocus.com/2021/07/vr-growth-to-outstrip-all-other-media-by-2025/
     
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  42. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    If I understand your source correctly, it only talks about how it will grow quicker than anything else. That doesn‘t tell you much about how big it‘ll be though, considering how much bigger the other industries are as a baseline.

    I don‘t know what Microsoft/Sony‘s plans are for VR, but I doubt VR will become a mainstream thing until consoles make extensive use of it.
     
  43. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    How many available titles with VR content would you consider to be "extensive use"?

    VR-Titles.jpg
     
  44. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    85 - 90% of titles released within a 12 month period would do it
     
  45. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but quoting a VR related source on how VR will be great and the next big thing is a bit like quoting Esso or Shell on how fossil fuels are good for the environment or tobacco companies on how smoking doesn't harm your lungs...

    If you have a document from a non-biased source, great...
     
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  46. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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  47. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    What I meant is: VR is considered standard equipment for the console (either included with the console or something that most people buy together with it).

    This is all just my opinion, but I think VR is only going to become mainstream if the majority (or at least a significant amount) of AAA studios develop VR-only games. The only way that is going to happen is if most people on console have a compatible VR system available. Otherwise, AAA studios will not see it worthwhile to invest in the development of VR games. In that case, it‘ll always remain a niche feature for some sims, indie games, and tacked on to some non-VR AAA games.
     
  48. AVeryFatElf

    AVeryFatElf Member

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    I honestly couldn't agree more with this. The other day I saw someone say how they think VR implementation will mean that lower-end systems won't be able to play the game anymore.

    Firstly, that's not how VR works and if you have a potato system then I'm not sure why you would expect to VR to work anyways.
    Secondly, the unreal engine is VERY malleable and including VR into the mix isn't going to impact non-VR users.

    Lastly, you're on the money with the comment about cockpits. My mind was BLOWN when I tried Elite Dangerous in VR, again another sim people would call "niche" yet look at what they've accomplished with it. VR in a sim isn't an aesthetic or a "nice" thing to have as an extra. It quite literally changes how you play the game. Instead of orientating the ship to keep the target in sight, i'm headtracking this ship and bringing my ship about. If i was playing this in 2D, i'd not be able to have his level of immersion and i would be at a disadvantage not being able to keep the ship in sight. If I was landing, I can peer down through the footwells in the ship down through bay windows to gauge how far away the ground was.

    I digress, but my point is that playing TSW VR, I would be able to pay attention better to dials, lights, signals and due to gaining use of our stereoscopic vision through a headset I'd be able to look at platforms and signals and gauge how far away I was in case I need to stop or slow down. I think people who downplay VR really haven't had the experience to make an informed opinion if they've not experienced the above.

    As i've said in other posts, I would settle for at least the ability to have an active headset. I could settle for keyboard or/and gamepad controls for now if VR controllers are going to be a big implementation. The informed know that the Unreal Engine supports VR natively so DTG only need to do the implementation between their content/programming and Unreal Engines native VR capabilities.
     
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  49. jamster47

    jamster47 Member

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    Everything he said ⬆️ Spot on
     
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  50. railhub#5135

    railhub#5135 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2021
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    There is an alternative way to feeling immersion if you can't play this game in VR:
    1) in this when you open Oculus Link you just expand the screen to block the white background and you are immersed
    2) You can use a triple screen monitor configuration for this game
     

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