Tsw3 - The Cat Is Out Of The Bag & The Unofficial Tsw3 Speculation Thread

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by redrev1917, Jul 5, 2022.

  1. Princess Entrapta

    Princess Entrapta Well-Known Member

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    The hype cycle was very much still there, but publishers who knew they had a lemon on their hands would hold back review copies during launch month and the magazines would have to go out and buy a retail copy and they got 3-4 weeks of sales before the 1/10 reviews came out...
     
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  2. Princess Entrapta

    Princess Entrapta Well-Known Member

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    I mean, I'm sure many of us could drum up more interest among friends if they added network code to let us run services with someone else as driver and guard.
     
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  3. Pinguinie

    Pinguinie Active Member

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    Without MP, announcements and such features, it makes no sense to buy TSW3. It makes no difference whether I press A and D on TSW2 or use RailDriver or on TSW3 without any new features.
     
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  4. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Many people have zero interest in multiplayer
    If they invest their time in making it so people can zoom past each other at 250mph closing speed they're not fixing issues, making better gameplay etc
     
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  5. hypospray

    hypospray Member

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    Multiplayer would be one of the most useless things they could bring into a train simulator.
    Imagine the mess and blockades on the tracks if someone is not capable to move the train for whatever reason. Or just the griefing potential.
     
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  6. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I couldn't care less about multiplayer if I tried . I juts don't see how it can be implemented without people blocking lines and causing mayhem. As for standing on a train and opening the doors whilst my friend drives.... well wow, let me pay £25 to play with a guard panel for 25 stations on a route.

    i know a lot want guard mode but I'd take VR and immersion rather than the human equivalent of an unranked red signal glitch
     
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  7. zappatime

    zappatime Active Member

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    A driver and fireman would be an obvious multiplayer, it doesn't have to be multi driver players on one route; however I cant see this being something many would want and only really applies to steam locos, I doubt mp is high on their list, lets have DI controller allocation first
     
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  8. Princess Entrapta

    Princess Entrapta Well-Known Member

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    What griefing?
    You invite a friend to a co-operative session where you both operate a service together, they fill the other roles in the train crew. It'd make it more realistic and potentially quicker too, having a player handling things like brakeman roles to sort out coupling and setting the points correctly, etc.
    I don't imagine most folks would start a multiplayer session with someone intent on causing trouble and they'd see a swift unfriending if they did.

    I expect the engine would fall flat on its face if they tried to add anything beyond that anyway, like operating different trains.
     
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  9. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    I mean this sounds cool for those who are interested, but my concerns are more:

    How much of the development budget would MP take, and what other features would be left out as a result?

    How much confidence do we have in DTG building the infrastructure needed for MP? Do they have the right staff on hand? I haven't played any of their fishing titles, but do they have any MP modes?

    If so, that would give me a little more confidence that they have those skills available in-house.
     
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  10. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    You can park MP just above creators club for features I hate.

    Trying to do 1 hour run just to find some moron has parked his train right outside London Victoria blocking all paths.

    The dispatcher can't even cope with 1 human train, expecting it to be handle 5+ humans including one doing their best to break the game is going to be chaos
     
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  11. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Multiplayer pointless. As I remarked previously, tried it in Run 8 and it’s basically a chat room for a player clique, if you’re not one of the regulars you get ignored. Even with the so called persistent world in Run 8, I parked my player train up in one of the Bakersfield Yards with a note I’d be back later. When I did return the train had been deleted completely from the world, not even moved up the route a little bit so I could take over again, making the previous 40 min drive session totally pointless.

    Even if TSW3 offered some means of having players doing signalling or despatching, unless the whole system got a radical overhaul there is no flexibility to regulate or deviate trains from the preplanned path. Then you have to legislate for Joe Bloggs at signalbox A calling it a day which means the AI has to be capable of taking over with the same intelligence and skill as the human signaller.
     
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  12. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    So you invite a friend onto your high speed service, so they can do what for the 25 minutes between stops?
    That's the main problem with MP. There is literally nothing to do other than shovelling coal or opening doors. Pressing the "now shovel" button would be tedious and worse for "now do nothing until the next stop"
     
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  13. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Sounds riveting, where do I sign up? What about US freight services? Do they just spend the full 90mins twiddling their thumbs watching for signals?
     
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  14. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    And most people do have interest in multiplayer. If it was ever implemented and if you don't like it, don't use it
     
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  15. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Seeing how Creator’s Club is essentially completely broken on PS5 - none, none at all.
     
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  16. dangerousdave

    dangerousdave Well-Known Member

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    My kid plays one on roblox called stepford County railway. It works quite well. Dtg could probably do a roblox version of tsw. Won't have no complaints about quality that's for sure.
     
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  17. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I’d rather they just get the game consistent and with more single player features and game additions before cutting another gash in the experience that Adam’s team have to try and sew up 12months later and Sam gets brought out to quiz Matt and apologise for
     
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  18. J.T.

    J.T. Active Member

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    I'm afraid this is the drawback of many multiplayers :(

    My uncle, who was a professional signaller, tried to play Train Driver 2 in multiplayer. At first he was totally ignored by players manning neighbouring stations. The boys were too busy fooling around and making fun of their less experienced colleagues to respond to calls from an unfamiliar signaller and actually direct the movement of trains. Eventually, the uncle himself was attacked and insulted by these railway enthusiasts, so he simply hung up.

    All in all, I guess only VATSIM holds some level of culture and professionalism. It's the only multiplayer with which I have good memories.
     
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  19. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I had the same thing with Elite Dangerous. Thankfully never got "ganked" which apparently is still a thing even now, but I was in a system where there were other players, put up various friendly "o7" messages and just got ignored. In the end, I went back to the menu and resumed my game in SP. Again, pointless. I think it works to some extent on tablet games but it's more co-operative play. For example Hay-day where your team competes in a weekly Derby against other teams for a place in the league with in game prizes and promotion/demotion. Or combat games like Rival Kingdoms where again you are in a team and either play against other teams in a "War" to see who gets the most points with in game currency as a prize or team events where each player contributes points to a ladder which opens up more prizes such as upgrade materials. But I don't see how this sort of gameplay could be applied to a train sim, unless you start putting certain aspects of the game behind an achievement wall. Frankly I would prefer a decent structured career mode, something similar to a virtual airline, over a half baked implementation of MP.
     
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  20. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    I agree only half. MP wouldnt intrest me at all. Same for announcements, they are under copyright of the operators usually.

    But i totally agree tsw3 needs some high improvements & entire new features.
    My personal focus would be improved lighting, routes which can be extended & connected. Also a rolling stock pool, which can be updated easy without ending up in having 4 different locomotive versions of the exact same type. Its just ridiculous.
     
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  21. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    I have zero interest in MP. Every minute spent coding a MP on a Train Simulator is wasted time in my opinion. I feel the same about MSFS MP.
     
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  22. bakedpotatos.jm

    bakedpotatos.jm Well-Known Member

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    Not interested in MP either, but I am surprised how high it is on the want list compared to VR when we had surveys.
     
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  23. bakedpotatos.jm

    bakedpotatos.jm Well-Known Member

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    What if TSW 3 is PC and 9th gen only because the new features they have added are Dynamic weather, improved lighting with ray-tracing, lightning, arcs and sparks.

    But they still continue to release the routes for both TSW 2 for the 8th gen and TSW 3 for Pc and 9th gen.

    They already are cooking the routes for 2 separate versions on consoles already so its not like it will be extra work.

    If its going to be called TSW3 and not TSW2:Place title here, then obviously there is a big change coming.

    The game is already maxing out 8th gens capabilities so they can't expect to get the same new features. And they can't do ray-tracing. So I just don't see them able to add any new features on 8th gen.

    And they have said that they weren't going to hold back the game on PC/9th gen consoles. So it would make sense that TSW3 is PC/9th gen only and the still continue to support 8th gen on TSW2 for another year or so.

    The more we are waiting word the more I feel they are holding back because they know there is going to be backlash over something. And dropping 8th gen is what it is most likely.
     
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  24. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I think they need to bite the bullet really, I can forsee some long awaited improvements like lighting, memory, dispatcher etc, but at a cost, they need to push the positive aspects. I have a PS3 and skipped PS4 and went straight to PS5, but sure there was a period as things moved beyond PS3 where I couldn't play the new games, its part and parcel of the cycle, you then get new hardware and can catch up on stuff you missed when it first released.

    Looking long-term the game needs to progress and right now it needs to consolidate the items that are barely working or rarely present and get a clear feature-set that performs well. Once it has that platform it can push on the expansions of scope again. So they have to be very positive about the way forward and not get held back by old hardware. That might even mean some PCs won't be able to play, maybe the minimum specs will go up to 16GB RAM for example.

    TSC has been a very stable and similar engine for many years now, so there will come a point where TSW just pumps out content on the same platform, but they aren't there now by a long way. Can you imagine if they said that was the end of development of the TSW engine at this point?
     
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  25. bakedpotatos.jm

    bakedpotatos.jm Well-Known Member

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    Great points!
     
  26. Larwan

    Larwan Member

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    Wow, so mutch Multiplayer "hate" here, I wasen't expect that. I would love a Multiplayer in TSW 2! One of the main reasones are how unpredictable real human players are. A real random factor. Yes there need to be are autokick feature, if you are blocking the treck for to long or don't take any actions for some time, but on a multiplayer server you have to careful every time. You didn't know if it is a normal A to B run or maybe stop and go run with many danger signals. In the timetable mode for excample you know after some which run or line is just streight A to B. With the combination with an dynamic or many even a human dispetcher, who can intervene and maybe for example stop a regional service to let a delayed express service through would it be awesome.

    And I'm talking about servers where many railway enthusiasts will try there best to be on time and have smooth railway operations, but like in real life there will be disturbances. Yes there will be peaple who just want to ruin the game for others, but I think we diden't have to cancel a really good feature because of them. And with good kick and ban management on the servers there, Ithink there can be a fun muliplayer experiance for (almost) every one. :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2022
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  27. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

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    Moving forwards I think a fair balance would be required to suit Gen8, 9 and PC users (low to high end specs).

    If TSW3 is in the pipeline then I think it needs to be Gen 9 & PC only, however, they should still support TSW2 for reasons being that not everyone can afford a Gen 9 console or high spec PC (I fortunately can) especially with the cost of living crisis.

    The game needs to move on and can't be held back so surely that would be a good compromise.
     
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  28. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    'anyone else wondering where Matts been?
     
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  29. bakedpotatos.jm

    bakedpotatos.jm Well-Known Member

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    He popped up on the 8up stream in the chat. I assume he is super busy now that he is executive producer.
     
  30. bakedpotatos.jm

    bakedpotatos.jm Well-Known Member

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    Also when was the last time they said that they currently have no intention to stop support for 8th gen on TSW 2. Last time I can find was over 1 year ago on the streams if thats the case then "currently" could have passed by now. Maybe someone should ask the question for the next Roadmap stream.
     
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  31. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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  32. Calidore266

    Calidore266 Well-Known Member

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    Could be his time's being taken up by managing the development and QA of the rest of the bugfix/Pres. Crew releases so they can be released and the teams can get back to making new stuff. I'm all for that.
     
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  33. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    Looks like being on a server with real railway enthusiasts is like playing with AI. So like Singleplayer?
    I guess 90% of all players would go [edit by Protagonist - watch the language] in MP and real railway enthusiasts would soon be back to SP or dont see enough difference.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 31, 2022
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  34. Larwan

    Larwan Member

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    Sorry, but did't you read my post? I've said the opposite. No, it's not like singleplayer, because the AI is always on time and human player make mistakes and are not always on time. Maybe you are always on time, but all the safety systems on the german on british Routes i made mistakes and have delay.

    And for me there are no "real" railway enthusiasts,. just railway enthusiasts. I hate to exclude peaple. What is a "real" railway enthusiasts for you? And I will say the oppsite of your guess. I think there will be 90 or maybe 95% "normal" drivers who try to be on time and a small number of people who want to try to ruin the game. And therefore there have to be a ban and kick mechanism on TSW Multiplayer Server.
     
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  35. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    For me multiplayer and co-op are two different things. Multiplayer would be chaos unless there were private servers but in all honesty I think DTG are way off implementing that. As for co-op, I can see that being a laugh on certain routes like playing as a guard for example where you have control over the doors and signal to the driver. Or I remember Sam saying he always wanted to have a few players play as passengers, personally I think that one is a bit daft but a guard might be a laugh.

    TSW3 when it comes, will it be an upgrade to the existing engine or will it be a new game? Will it cut off Gen8? Will it import TSW2 routes?
    I'd love to know the answers to these questions. Could they afford to cut off Gen 8? I think DTG would get a backlash from a lot of players.

    Let's say they did a new game, TSW3, and they cut off Gen 8. Will they continue to support TSW2 or will that be cut off too?
    Will these questions no wonder DTG are cowering. The longer they leave it will only make it more difficult. I remember DTG saying something like they wanted to be more open and honest especially with the big stuff, hahahaha yeah right. DTG is just the same as any other games company and only want us to know what DTG allows us to, this is why the leak by JD is just too funny and why now DTG on streams are trolling us to try and save face.
     
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  36. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    TSW3 should cut off Gen 8 Consoles and move forward.
     
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  37. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    For me they're one and the same. Anything where one person is reliant on the correct application by another (in this case driving a train properly) would count as multiplayer, and anything relying on others in this would mean me not doing that thing.
     
  38. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    The same experience could be provided in SP if the dispatcher could cope with dynamic events and an intelligent AI with random events but without gankers and griefers so a more enjoyable experience.
    Give us dynamic events in SP first before even thinking about MP
     
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  39. Yorkshirelad

    Yorkshirelad Active Member

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    Gen 8 is finished, it's time to let it go, Gen 8 has always been the thorn in TSW's side, be it TSW2020 or TSW2.
     
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  40. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    Your left leg and your right arm are finished, let them go, you don't need them anymore. Go forwards.
     
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  41. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    Different things and i guess you know it but i would like to know why you feel so strong about them.
    Would you say the most money is in console and there most money is still made selling to Gen 8 people? Do you as a developer have insight into this?

    Would you agree that Gen8 is holding back TSW2 and potentionally 3 since much time has to be spend making sure it runs on those ancient consoles and features like better lighting cant be implemented? Or is this easy?
    Then why was Gen8 an excuse many times why things are not moving forward?
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2022
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  42. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    this is why it is where it is yes
     
  43. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I think I'll be the contrarian here and say that IMO Gen 8 is not holding back TSW, or to be more clear it's not holding it back more that the amount of resources DTG wants to put in a route, and dropping old gen wouldn't rally make that much of a difference, and those are my arguments:

    • It is already possible to release two slightly different versions of the same DLC, one for PC and new gen, and one for old gen. This has been happening for a while.
    • DTG has already made clear that they don't care (enough) if some route consistently crash on older hardware, I still remember SKA crashed every time near Köln when I still had the Xbox One, apparently the same goes for DRA and DCZ.
    • Series S seems to be the biggest threat right now, from what I understood it doesn't have enough RAM to keep up, and it crashes fairly often on heavier routes like DRA and DCZ, and what's worse is that you can make a different DLC for 8th and 9th gen, but the XSS and XSX stuff has to be the same, so possibly they might decide to cap new DLC to the XSS performance rather than 8th gen, so there will alway be a bottleneck around the current DCZ/DRA level
    • If enough people are still on old gen, would it be the correct financial decision to let them go? Less people that pay for DLC -> less resources that can be used to make them -> worse DLC
    • A lot of the quality control issues, and criticism for the current DLC IMO do not stem from 8th gen, bad scenery, bugged trains, bad lighting, etc.... is not a 8th gen problem. Yes, the BR101 IIRC is more resource intensive than other locos, but it's not like it can't run on 8th gen.

    What would actually make more sense is to have the option to change settings on console.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2022
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  44. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I haven't seen this said by DTG. Several commentators on here, yes, but not DTG.
    Yes they put more effort into making things work for older consoles, but they develop on and for PC and then dial things back for older machines.

    Of course if DTG developed using best practice, optimised and so on then maybe there wouldn't need to BE the issue that routes made four years ago still cause issues on old gen machines (which weren't old gen at all back then) but still...
     
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  45. Calidore266

    Calidore266 Well-Known Member

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    That's not being contrarian; that's what DTG has actually said.

    Again, simple business logic: If 8th gen development wasn't still profitable, it would be dropped. This will happen naturally at some point. Meanwhile, DTG has indeed moved forward. They are now developing for gen 9 and more modern PCs, but still downscaling for 8th gen to keep their largest current player base in the loop.

    Dropping 8th gen now will hurt those players, hurt DTG financially, and help nobody.
     
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  46. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    I'll agree with you that gen 8 is holding TSW back when TSW has lighting on par with other gen 8 games like Hitman, Assassins Creed and RDR2, all of which have terrific lighting.
     
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  47. J.T.

    J.T. Active Member

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    In 'Diesel Railcar Simulator', the author has managed to implement random delaying of AI trains. And it really works great! Moreover, the AI signaller can sometimes change the aspect to 'clear' on a semaphore with a delay. So the player always has to stay alert and watch the semaphores attentively. Instead of levitating around the train in search of plush dinosaurs ;)
     
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  48. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Whilst 8th gen sales still justify the extra work commercially then they will continue to be supported. The day it isn't profitable for DTG to release new routes on 8th gen will be the day support ceases.
     
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  49. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    That day has come.
     
  50. dangerousdave

    dangerousdave Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if rockstar will release gta 6 on gen 8, And tone down all the graphics to bring in the small amount of extra income. Or would they be thinking... if these gen 8 owners are too tight to buy the latest tech, are they even gonna buy gta 6.
     
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