Right we need to be really loud about this. The WCML timetable is quite unacceptable considering TSW2 Rush Hour Brighton - London has over 1,400+ services compared to the WCML timetable with 690 Services for TSW5 this is an actual downgrade and it's factual if we're not loud about recieving unfinished rushed products. I was really optimistic for this route but I feel like all of these announcements and warnings posts about how unfinished the game is, it's an absolute facade. I don't mind waiting for games just to improve the functionality or immersion into the game. To say that the timetable is almost final this really can't be right especially with loosing the licensing for the livery for the 350 it's clearly the project management aren't planning correctly and it's poor etiquette to the fan base that love driving trains. However this type of unfinished work needs to stop and dovetail really need to improve on the timetable otherwise we're going to have a whole New York - Trenton scenario all over again. But with this all being said I hope you guys are loud about the issues that should be rectified! Patches & glitches will happen again and again no matter what game we play, either GTA or TSW however dovetail needs to stop rushing game and just simply delay the game to satisfy it's player fan base. And we don't complain nothing will be fixed and they'll think everything is fine but the timetable is a big issue especially when bakerloo line was released the timetable was an absolute shambles however that's improved now but very outdated too. Let's just hope they listen to us this year, otherwise people will either just find better alternatives or resort to modding the game.
It definitely needs to be boosted. To even consider releasing it in its current state is frankly ludicrous and unacceptable. DTG should not be allowed to brush this under the carpet. They employed Rivet, renowned for its poor quality, half-assed efforts to develop one of the most demanded routes ever in TSW, so they can only expect a huge backlash when that route fails to deliver. To then announce ‘improvements’ that don’t even address the criticism is another insult on top of the cheek to show the route in a god awful state in the first place. I’m just thankful they did show the route because as it stands, they’ve lost my £60 TSW5 Deluxe pre-order, which I cancelled the day after the stream. If they want my money, they have to fix WCML.
Yeah, the improvements they've planned are nice and all (even though it really shouldn't have been necessary had the route actually had effort put into it) but the real killer for me is the timetable. Quite frankly, I think it's disgraceful. Hell, we haven't even got off-route destinations on launch? Seems like we've gone back in time. Normally DTG make stellar timetables, especially in recent releases, but this one is nothing short of appalling - almost like whoever was working on it just didn't care.
Oh absolutely I'm honestly tempted to retract my pre-order and wait for the updates rather than just having to wait with disappointment it's okay to play an early access game but we're paying at full price the marketing and financial teams need to reschedule their projects a lot more thoroughly. Otherwise people will just get fed up and not buy the products yes they're been a lot of negativity however 99% of people are giving constructive criticism. Sometimes it does feel like we're ignored and if game developers keep using bad reputable third parties they haven't got anyone to blame apart from their selves even people who aren't into necessarily into trains might just love the environment and get lost and be immersed to enjoy something different. As dovetail knows we have die hard rail fans and we all know this but to keep having the same practices they people will buy content again and again however if they release a game with AAA+ feel to it you could probably market this to transport enthusiasts in general or people who like driving or cruising around they could be eventually interested into TSW but with all the poor updates how do you expect to grow your fan base and most importantly grow into an ethical company that has pride it's quality when they release software. Rightly to be honest I never pre order but they did hype up the release with real disappointment. So if it carries on and gets consistent I'm just going to wait for sales on content because at least all the game with have most bugs and developments fixes completed and I don't have to play an unfinished game. I just hope they start listening otherwise I'll be playing OMSI or taxi life this winter lol
They haven't ignored the feelings we have they have addressed them, not necessarily in the way we want. They said similar about the NYT timetable after the storm around that and looks at it now. My worry was there were technical reasons why the timetable is the way it is but it doesn't seem that's the case.
It's all down the the annual big 3 route model schedule. They clearly do not have the resources to do this amount of work within the required time by the investors along with smaller DLC packs released through the year. You can see where DTGs main effort went and didn't. Sure Matt even stated that it takes about a team of 30 around 4 months to do this. Look at all the other releases in the 12months since TSW3. Factor 8n DLC packs and annual leave for staff. It doesn't leave Alot if time for quality and polishing from what I can see.
My theory is there has been a diluted overground timetable around the times that the route is busy with LNWR & AWC services. There is a strange lack of the extras we usually see though, along with not putting in realistic layers such as the ROG37, RHTT & 08’s. We have seen similar issues with the likes of SEHS & more recently NYT though & they were addressed, so hopefully DTG will pull through again with this one.
It seems odd not to have RHTT as it appears in lots of routes. I hadn't even considered an 08, wasn't sure they even used them much now. Trundling around the yards at Willesden in and 08 could be very involving and cathartic. An opportunity missed for sure.
It has improved a bit. The community mods have vastly improved it. The Leven branch should be a nice addition and that hopefully will mean a more substantial timetable with the 158 having regular timetable services.
Absolutely, I'd honestly rather have a triple A game with superb quality however I'd rather have less routes and have something a bit more interactive and just something to provide endless gameplay. The timetable really is a big thing for me in TSW and yes they have provided great routes but when their rushed and feels a tiny bit unfinished it ultimately pulls me away. The main reason I'm a little upset is that because we've had 1400+ services in London - Brighton & SEHS and it can be provided but let's see how they can put more time into routes. But I'd just wish they'd have more quality over quantity. However if dovetail does decide to release early development routes/games please state it and possibly charge at a discounted rate and then release it at full price as people would sympathise more with this issue.
I haven't purchased this as of yet however I'm waiting for the branch line update to be added to the map
Exactly that - unacceptable, especially for the LO 710. Being a Londoner I ride this route and know it well, there is absolutely no chance I can buy this route in this current state as it's not a simulation of any route I know. Hence going for the free upgrade until it's fixed. When it is I shall purchase.
The price DTG charge for DLC is not insignificant. It should not be getting released in such a poor state. Customers deserve better. The poll result is so far emphatic. The timetable needs to be improved and improved substantially. We don’t expect anything less. DTG Matt, DTG JD, DTG Alex, and DTG Harry: Please don’t let your customers down. Please do the right thing. Please ensure the powers that be allow the time and resources required to do this route justice. Rivet just weren’t up to the job.
If DTG and it's third parties are becoming reliant on talented members of the community to fix it's shortfalls/sloppiness then we are doomed. The problem now is that DTG publicly acknowledge the mods and also use lame marketing like "you can experience xyz train using free roam" instead of them delivering a fully encompassing timetable experience.
I wasn't saying it was right that community members should bring routes up to scratch rather than the developers. But I'm very grateful to the modders. Modding has been going on since MSTS days.
Free roam does not add to your AP, if that floats your boat and you can't run to a specific timetable.
Yup, pretty much any game can be significantly improved by modding. ETS & ATS are usually the more popular sims & whilst vanilla is good, just like TSW can be, a modded version is far superior.
I know. I’ve been very vocal about it. Whether it’s getting through to anyone at DTG though. Who knows. It doesn’t seem to be up to now.
i’ve heard that somewhere before. rivet have been on their last straw for years now, when will dtg finally get the message
Ultimately it's DTG that do the quality control and publish the content, it's DTG that ultimately say if something is ready for release, it's ultimately DTG that say "yes this is good" or "you need to address xyz". As much as I dislike the sloppy content that Rivet produce (not everything , the Class 170 is very good) if DTG are green lighting it each time then it's DTG who needs to be held accountable.
I think we should lower the hysteria somewhat - if you accept the latest statement on post-release patch, there will be 49 390/0 services and 60 390/1. A quick and dirty check of the May 2024 timetable T066-F gives around 59 Monday-Friday services out of Euston which look to be Pendolino. Rationally, there should be around the same number entering. Also, the Railwaydata.co.uk site has for Euston the May 2024 number of weekday services to be 674 (except Monday - 672). Furthermore, Euston is the 10th busiest station in the UK, with Victoria the 5tth largest, having 50% more passengers. So maybe cool the jets and look at Victoria service patterns - low and behold - 1100 weekday services (Monday 1094). Granted, if you visit both stations, Euston looks the busier, or at least more chaotic....
It's worth bearing in mind though that a reasonable proportion of those 390 services will (or should) be ECS services, which aren't included in your 59. So the realistic amount of services for the Pendolino altogether would probably be something on the order of 150 - 120ish for passenger services and about 30 ECS movements (counting in and out at the start and end of the day plus any stabling during the day). Same of course applies for the 350 and 710.
I think the only parts wrong with the mainline timetable is incorrect class 350 formations, and of course the virtual destination issue. The Watford DC line schedule is where it fell apart.
But the Watford DC line is such an important part of it. Part of the thrill of driving the mainline services is passing those TfL trains very frequently. EDIT: Should add I've never actually driven the route, nor seen it in real life from the mainline. This is just how I imagine it.
Somewhere it has been acknowledged they were involved. I was sceptical but WCMLS does seem to have not come out as well as the other two routes. The gaps in the timetable seem a little unlike DTG, NYT aside, unless they just ran out of time.
Yes that is the worse part of the timetable for me as it has the most glaring gaps. Apparently the Tring services have the wrong stopping pattern too, will find out tomorrow and the class 350's should be mostly 8 carriages. These point to a lack of research or some kind of sticking plaster approach to make up for a shortfall. This is something I would expect to see on an early route not a TSW5 route and it is disappointing. Unless the timetable isn't a DTG creation.
Given that the other DTG x Rivet colabs have been pretty decent, I suspect that doing 3 major routes all for the same deadline probably took its toll, and WCML(S) is just the least ready of the 3
That may well be the case. San Bernadino has been on the roadmap for sometime of course but who knows how long the routes have been in production. It seems rather lax of them as the WCML out of Euston has been an oft requested route and was eagerly anticipated, even if many would like it to go futher than Milton Keynes.
They say Rivet were involved with other external partners, they don't say that Rivet made the route on their own. How they were involved we can't be sure.
ECS moves I accept - no idea what the numbers might be, but frankly how many times are you going to do those moves - other than AI to increase immersion. By the way, at least 22 weekday services into Euston are Class 800, the great majority of which only stop at Milton Keynes Central, so a 37 minute non-stop, similar to London Reading on GWE - the 800 might make a good DLC, since the work to convert the existing class 801 would be minimal, except for maybe some cab detail (and exhaust stacks?). OR dreaming - an extension DLC via Birmingham New Street to Wolverhampton, packaged with an 800, because according to the timetable AWC runs the 800s from Wolverhampton to Euston. If you want a reasonably accurate count of 390s into Euston, the timetables on railwaydata.co.uk do list the intended traction and the train number. So a comparison with TSW5 timetable would be possible, but as the song goes "the man that does that a great hero he will be, but it will be someone else, not me".
All they seem to have said is that Rivet were involvedm they didn't say it was solely rivet. so I don't think its a case of they're to blame. I'm taking it as it seems that they've rushed WCML to get it out in time for the TSW5 rebrand. Either way, a poor show
That stated Rivet was involved… they did NOT state it was entirely Rivet. So let’s be atleast a tad honest and report was was actually stated.
tbh why havent DTG kick Rivet out by how poorly they do stuff? (And as of current time. Has rivet improved?)
That’s up to DTG… I think Rivet has done some good work along with some that is not so great. A few on here seem to have a pathological hatred for the company, If I see a product that does not meet my expectations, I just don’t buy it and move on. No drama, no campaign to get everyone to agree with my evaluation, just move on to run a route I enjoy. Life is way too short to get wrapped around on axel over a product you have the choice to buy or not. best
Broadly speaking I agree, though the problem here is that DTG are selling us a product they are supposed to have developed, not just published. Whilst yes I can continue to employ the don’t like it don’t buy it, I certainly want to be vocal about DTG not using Rivet to develop DTG routes. Rivet can do what they like with their own stuff, for me they’ve wrote themselves off. But now they’re not only tainting other devs routes, but tainting some of the most popular requests.
Well nobody at DTG is raising their hands to claim WCMLS, which says a lot in my book. There are probably reasonable explanations behind the scenes for all of this: pure speculation: during LIRR2 license limbo earlier this year, DTG put San Bernardino into accelerated production to fill a potential gap in the schedule, taking dev resources from the team that would ultimately make WCMLS. Rivet were then hired to fill in the gaps, and the ultimate result is the frankenstein's monster that will be released in a few hours. But, in the end, none of it matters to the customers- they only care if they get a good product, and right now it's looking very grim on that front for at least 1/3 of their flagship release.
DTG said there were no plans to fix the horrendous NYT launch timetable. The community kept the pressure on DTG after release and they eventually gave in and we got a complete redo of the timetable. (Courtesy of Joe of course)
I think we do need to be loud. But the only meaningful thing you can do it not buy the product. I’ve purchased the last 4 TSW annual releases on launch day but I have decided not to this time (genuinely sad as I was so so excited when TSW5 was initially released.) The amount of issues with the WCML is huge, particularly the timetable, lighting and licensing. Think I’ll wait till the new year when the route might be in an okay state.
