I want to share my experience with you guys because I cannot make sense of the PZB on VBRG. Note that I'm not used to PZB altogether, so maybe it's the way it's working that confuses me. I know this system in famous for being confusing to people who aren't used to it. Without further ado, let's expose you what confuses me. So, I get it that (mostly), we need to acknowledge any non green signal (I know it's a bit more specific than that, but so far it works for me), then it triggers a 85km/h max speed, giving you some time for braking. After a bit, if « it » is « safe for release », you may hit the PZB release and go on at the actual speed limit. Some other times, though, « it » is not « safe for release » and the PZB speed limit continues to be enforced, but some times, I've noticed the PZB HUD saying « speed limit 165km/h », and I don't know why. I cannot see anything telling me that, other than the HUD. This is what confuses me the most. How can I tell if the PZB speed limitation is 45km/h, 85km/h or 165km/h? Onward another thing that confuses me. I must be surfing the speed limit a bit much because I have had some penalty stops inflicted by the PZB for going 86km/h (or not very much higher) while it forced me to reduce my speed from 130km/h, but I understand why the train stops. That part is just infuriating, but it's on me. A couple of time, when I wanted to restart after a forced stop (the PZB tells me that I'm not allowed to go over 85km/h, or so I remember), I restarted with a bit of haste, cross another yellow signal that I acknowledge and got another penalty stop immediately, even though I'm not going over 85km/h. When it happens, I see the PZB says that I shall not go over 45km/h, but, maybe I'm mistaken, but I was sure I was under a 85km/h speed limitation. Or is it me just plain confused that didn't notice it was in fact a 45km/h limitation? I should record myself next time I play on this line. I don't really see any good reason for not activating track safeties (and recently, I also activate vigilance devices, which is not so bad, when you are used to the train and the line), but I'd like to understand them better rather than being the victim of an untold law. If you could clear the clouds in my head, that would help a lot. Thank you
Read this web page. It explains PZB very simply and clearly: https://www.sh1.org/eisenbahn/rindusi.htm
If you stop and restart (or travel below 10km/h for 15 seconds or more) while under a 1000Hz or 500Hz magnet you will enter restrictive monitoring (you can tell this by lights in the cab alternating between 70 and 85) and the limit will be reduced to 45km/h, or even 25km/h if under a 500Hz magnet. Most of the modern locos will tell you the 45km/h or 25km/h limit on their cab screen anyway but look for the 70 and 85 lights flashing from one to the other repeatedly.
Thank you. I've checked it quickly and it's already enlightening. I will most certainly read it quite carefully later. But I'm quite sure this resource don't reference a case where the 1000Hz magnet's speed limitation goes from 85km/h to 165km/h. Is that a feature specific to VBRG line or is it a bug?
PZB always monitors the max allowed speed of your train, even if there's no active 1000Hz/500Hz restriction. Now matter how fast your vehicle is, max allowed speed using PZB (vs LZB or ETCS) is 160km/h, for any train, so PZB will definitely do 165km/h limitation. If the vehicle/train must only go 120km/h then it will also check for this lower limit, but I don't think that works in TSW. When you come to a stop or drive real slow for a couple seconds PZB enters restrictive mode, shown by alternating lights. So - always: checking for max allowed speed of train - 1000Hz: checking for 85km/h (or 70 or 55, depending on mode - whichever one blinks) - 1000Hz restrictive: checking for 45km/h (alternating blinking) - 500Hz: checking for 65km/h initially, down to 45km/h (or 50 down to 35, or 40 down to 25, depending on mode) - 500Hz restrictive: checking for 25km/h (alternating blinking + red 500Hz light)
Just to add, because this one tripped me up for a long time. You need to press "PZB override" when passing a shunt signal, or you'll get an immediate penalty brake application.
Thank you for your answer, but there is still something that I don't understand, but it's not easy to describe it. I'm uploading a video with the behavior of the PZB that confuses me. It'll take some time for youTube to process it. I'll send it here tomorrow. Hopefully you will be able to explain to me why it's behaving this way.
1. When you acknowledge a 1000 Hz magnet you need to slow to below 85 kph within 23 seconds. This satisfies the braking curve ahead of whatever restriction you're approaching. The 85 kph speed limit is in effect for (I believe) 700 meters. After you roll 700 meters, if you don't encounter any other active PZB magnets, the 1000 Hz light goes out and the 85 continues to flash. In this situation you can release from PZB and accelerate only if the signaled speed limit ahead is greater than 30 kph, and if there's no other active magnets (500, 1000 or 2000 Hz) within the next 550 meters from the time of release. If you release and hit an active magnet, you'll get a penalty brake. Those are the rules for releasing to the best of my knowledge at this time. I've never used the PZB assistance HUD so I'm not sure exactly what it says, but I'm wondering if this is why you sometimes see that the 85 kph is still being enforced. It may not be safe to release because it's against the rules to release in that particular situation. 2. When PZB magnets are active, the speed limits associated with them are firm numbers. There's no wiggle room and the system is very unforgiving. It's good practice to shoot for 5 kph lower than any speed limit imposed by PZB. 3. The third scenario sounds like restricted monitoring like Scott295 said. Restricted monitoring protects the train from the driver mistakenly accelerating toward a restriction that he thinks is no longer in place. It takes longer to stop a train that's actively accelerating so the system accounts for this in this way. I believe the rules for releasing from 1000 Hz exist for this same reason. The driver might think the line ahead is clear, but it may not be. And if he starts accelerating, it will take longer to stop before the danger. Think DRA if you're familiar with the British stuff. Only this system doesn't rely on the driver remembering to set his reminder (something I always found funny). It's worth noting that the 85 kph limit for 1000 Hz magnets only applies to PZB mode O. From my experience, Mode O is used for passenger trains and light or empty freight trains. If you're driving a heavier freight train you'll likely use PZB mode M or U. Each mode has it's own speed limits and deceleration times, but the underlying logic is the same. It all has to do with the train's braking capability compared to its weight. Determining which mode is another conversation entirely, and one I'm willing to have if you're interested. PZB is a pain to learn, but its an interesting system and it's satisfying once you figure it out. Don't hesitate to message me if you have any other questions. Also, tygerways#2596 has some excellent YouTube videos about all things TSW. I highly recommend watching his stuff. He's a good teacher, and the real world context he provides is very interesting.
Also I forgot to mention that in Austria, yellow bordered signal repeaters showing STOP need to be acknowledged for PZB. They have 1000 Hz magnets attached and activated when they are showing stop. You can continue to the actual red signal but you have to acknowledge that particular signal repeater and follow all rules for 1000 Hz magnets. Credit to this site for the image: http://www.styria-mobile.at/home/Austro-SwissRailwaySignalling/asr/ensigasn.html
One note about the HUD saying Limit speed to 165: that is a bug, as 165 is the maximum speed allowed during normal operation under PZB O mode, with no magnets influencing. Sometimes it will say 165 but still blink the 85 light on the dashboard. Just try to press PZB release and drive the speed limit. It's a bit bugged.
That's exactly what's annoying me. With all the things I learned recently, I started to figure out it's a bug, but when you're not sure about it, it's confusing. Here is the example I've uploaded if you want to see it in action: I probably should do that because the HUD has bugs, but it's not only the HUD. On the video, you'll see my PZB 70 and 85 flashing alternately, then it's just the 85 flashing, as if I were no longer under the 1000Hz magnet. If I understand correctly that means that I was under 1000Hz restrictive, and that I'm no longer into 1000Hz, so in fact, I may release PZB.
I don't really see any bugs in the video (well, except for 165km/h thing on the HUD). In the beginning you have 70/85 flashing, because you have just activated your train. That's restrictive monitoring limiting your speed to 45 km/h. Then you pass active 1000Hz magnet, which turns on yellow lamp for next 700 meters. At some point during these 700 meters your initial restrictive monitoring runs out, so flashing changes to only 85, and your speed limit goes up to 85 km/h, but you are still under 1000Hz, because you haven't driven 700 meters from the magnet yet. And while you are under 1000Hz supervision, release button does nothing.
Watched the video – the 165km/h in the HUD is a bug (should read 85km/h) otherwise this is working as intended. PZB restrictions can stack: You're starting in the PZB starting mode, which is literally just a restrictive 1000Hz restriction with the first 700m already driven. So you got a 45km/h restriction for 550m (1250m minus the 700m), the 70 and 85 lights are alternating and you can technically release (1000Hz light not on, as is standard after 700m). Then you go past a 1000Hz magnet, which starts another 1000Hz restriction, this time non-restrictive. The yellow 1000Hz light is now on, you can't release anymore for the next 700m. Both restrictions are active at the same time but the lower one takes precedence, so for the remainder of the initial 550m the restrictive 45km/h applies. After you've driven 550m from your starting point, the initial restrictive 1000Hz goes away, now just the second non-restrictive 1000Hz applies, limiting you to 85km/h. (but the HUD shows 165..) The 85 light is now blinking and the yellow 1000Hz light is still on as you haven't driven 700m from the point the second restriction started. Once you've done that, the yellow light turns off and you can release from the second restriction – or drive the remaining 550m – and get back to unrestricted speed.
I don't see you problem as well but a small advice... Do not use the PZB release button... If you see double yellow you're not allowed to use the release button until you passed the main signal in a different position than red... In Austria it's rare to have a 500hz magnet but if there is one, for Germany it's all over the place if you use the release button you get a paneltybrake if you get in the 500hz and you have pressed release. In Austria is the rule otherwise to never use the release button. You have always wait until the restrictedmode is stopped before you can accelerate.
This only applies for 500Hz magnets. You are allowed to release when there's another 1000Hz magnet in the next 550m. Previously the guideline also mentioned 1000Hz magnets, the reason was that an additional 1000Hz restriction will immediately monitor for 85km/h instead of monitoring the brake curve and they didn't want penalty brakes from drivers expecting to have the usual time to lower the speed. But this has since been changed, the current version of the guideline (Ril 483.0101) mentions just 500Hz magnets as a reason not to release: As for 2000Hz magnets, those will always cause a penalty brake anyway, so their behavior doesn't have anything to do with restrictive monitoring. Not directly anyway – you must only release from restrictive monitoring when there's an aspect >30km/h ahead, which almost certainly isn't the case if there's an active 2000Hz magnet. (which are found next to red signals etc.) But this applies independent from a possible 2000Hz magnet and in the respective guideline the magnet is not listed separately as a reason not to release.
stateoftheartjonas interesting! Good to know. Sometimes I wish I spoke German so I could read the real world material
Well, thank you folks for these instructive informations. So, mostly, the problem was on my end, that's good to know Still, there is the PZB HUD that may give incorrect informations. I need to rely less on that, and more on the indicators in the cab (though, depending on the lighting, it's not always easy to understand which one is lit). However, I think I learned a lot about how to operate PZB.
I know the bare minimum and havent gotten any problems so ill share it, flashing 70 and 85 means you can only go 40km/h or 27mph. If it just says 85 you can do a max of 160km/h or 99mph. If it says U you can do in excess of 160, more often than not, 280. When departing certain stations it will come up on the right safe to release you need to press the PZB release button so you can go faster than 40km/h. If PZB sets off the emergency brakes, once you come to a stop press PZB release then PZB overide and get going. When you get the 1000Hz breaking curve thing slow down as fast as possible as it loves to speed up and set off the emergencies
That's the safe approach, but a tad conservative. If you can see the next signal is green, go ahead and release. If there is no signal in the next 3/4 km, go ahead and release.
