"we Know Its Not Good Enough" Sam

Discussion in 'Xbox Discussion' started by friskey.marcedes, Oct 6, 2021.

  1. friskey.marcedes

    friskey.marcedes Active Member

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    In recent months Sam has often said this on You Tube streams and lots of shaking heads and we will learn from what's gone wrong. In comparison to recent events those were tiny gremlins compared to what has happened on Dresden. Never played a game where the game ceashes so constantly and with the latest update it has made it even worse. My son laughs his head off every time the game crashes - playing train wreck 2 again Dad?
    How can QA not pick up such constant crashes and the game get released in such a poor state? I am really tempted to submit a ticket for every crash but that would take hours and hours and would also waste DTG time too.
    When I first started playing Miles Platting was the only time the game physically crashed and it was tolerable and now a year later it seems to be getting worse.
    DTG need to take stock and get this sorted out ASAP and as Matt is now "in charge" he needs to take responsibilty and give us all reassurance that things will improve in the future.
     
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  2. Sprinter

    Sprinter Active Member

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    Amen! 100% agree is all i can say.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2021
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  3. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    Well I think it’s good on them to recognize that there are issues, and lots of crashes that make the game unplayable is definitely not great. If they can admit that there’s some work to be done that’s a good thing, as well as addressing them
     
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  4. bakedpotatos.jm

    bakedpotatos.jm Well-Known Member

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    What crashes? My game hasn't crashed once on Dresden.
     
  5. JonnE

    JonnE Well-Known Member

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    The Series X is not affected by this ;) mine hasn't crashed either but I still remember Miles Platting and approaching Köln good enough..
     
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  6. formulabee#1362

    formulabee#1362 Well-Known Member

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    This ⬆️
    Tbh with u the qa team have been dysfunctional for a long time now
     
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  7. bakedpotatos.jm

    bakedpotatos.jm Well-Known Member

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    Aha I remember those ones as well.
     
  8. smugstarlord#4202

    smugstarlord#4202 Well-Known Member

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    Que the "we know and we are working on it" response. The whole RH release has been an absolute disaster and all we have got in return, as consumers, is empty apologies. I say empty apologies as they are constant and nothing has changed
     
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  9. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    It’s unacceptable. No excuses. Apologies are not enough.
     
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  10. bakedpotatos.jm

    bakedpotatos.jm Well-Known Member

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    No wonder we see Sam less and less. I'd want to distance my association with whats been turning into a customer service disaster of a product too.
     
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  11. dan5324

    dan5324 Active Member

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    We know it’s not good enough “releases a beta build of BML for full price”.
     
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  12. A Big Chungus

    A Big Chungus Active Member

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    It's all very well for them to say its not good enough, but they're still happy to release things in buggy condition. This is the mentality I wish the game industry would ditch, stop releasing unfinished products, putting out half hearted apologies and promises, and just release release products when they are finished. Delay it if you have to.
     
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  13. smugstarlord#4202

    smugstarlord#4202 Well-Known Member

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    It just seems like a money grab and all we are are "cash cows"
     
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  14. A Big Chungus

    A Big Chungus Active Member

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    That's why it is usually a good idea to wait for feedback first before diving head first, especially if a company has a reputation for releasing buggy products. If everyone decided to wait and not spend straight away, I think developers would soon stop releasing unfinished products under the guise of "money now, fix later".
     
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  15. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I agree. I was gonna get bml but because of the texture issues on xbox, i'm gonna wait until that is fixed. Hopefully by then any issues on that route that some find will be fixed
     
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  16. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    Community: We want an apology!
    Dovetail: We're really sorry...
    Community: An apology isn't good enough!
    Then what exactly is enough?
    I'm pretty sure he was on holiday recently.
     
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  17. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    The fixes being fixed.
     
  18. Yoinkermcskoinker

    Yoinkermcskoinker Well-Known Member

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    I’ll fix this for you,

    Community: We paid full price for a route that doesn’t work properly!
    Dovetail: We are really sorry everyone we’ve heard about the issues and we have been talking about how to fix them
    Community: So are you going to fix the problems?
    Dovetail: We’ll think about it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2021
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  19. A Big Chungus

    A Big Chungus Active Member

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    I think the most annoying thing for me these days is that devs are fully aware they are shipping products in buggy and glitch ridden states, and yet upon release they try and make such a big deal about apologising when the obvious imminent backlash ensues in order to try and save face, or try and gain points by saying "we'll use this as a learning experience." If they truly cared, they would have delayed it. Not release it in a "good enough" state.
    Again though, deadlines to meet, shareholders to please, wages to pay, taking a hit to ones reputation is unfortunately a side effect of the business.

    Obviously Game Devs are aware of the broken launch state, and the obvious fall out from it, and I'm sure many would have probably said "This route is still not ready" but there's only so much they can say without breaking company rules and policies, so it's a "grin and bare it" situation.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2021
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  20. friskey.marcedes

    friskey.marcedes Active Member

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    Guess what? London commuter -scaled down version with no layers for xbox users and numerous crashes.
    Cyber Punk was meant to be the worst example of a buggy game and I only had one crash having played completed it 3 times. If this game was more popular then all hell would be breaking out in the industry.
    Thanks for the support - what can we do about it? Equivalent of an online petition where as many of us as possible support the demand for action? Should we be contacting microsoft and expressing our collective concerns? Shouldn't "normal" xbox owners get money back for a second rate product? Sam did say they were thinking about compensation in a recent stream and that it was in the good old days.
    What I would love is a you tube stream on xbox for DTG to show what we are experiencing - constant crashes, restarts, and lots of "Oh that shouldn't have happened" and of course " This isn't good enough".
     
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  21. coursetim

    coursetim Active Member

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    I always try to defend Dovetail for the work they put in and I understand how it can be making and releasing games on such a massive scale.

    But with BML within hours people were finding uniform bugs, crashes and glitches that were so widespread it does make me wonder what QA are doing. Because it seems like DTG leave the people like Matt, Sam, Nat and JD to face the music on the streams consistently and I really feel for those guys because some of these streams can get nasty especially as they are the face of the game for dtg!
     
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  22. friskey.marcedes

    friskey.marcedes Active Member

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  23. Boris The Frog

    Boris The Frog Active Member

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    Does anyone know what that strange and in-cab 'creaking door' noise you can hear every few second is supposed to be (Series X BML stream...52m 04s and 52m 18s as a random places you can clearly hear it)? If it's intentional it would drive me bonkers listening out for it during an entire 50min journey.
     
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  24. eire007

    eire007 Active Member

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    Series x here. Mine just crashed to Home Screen.
    Get ready for it :p
     
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  25. JonnE

    JonnE Well-Known Member

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    Yeah with BML my post became outdated quite quickly...
     
  26. speedy2972

    speedy2972 Active Member

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    If they know it's not good enough why sell it?
    Isn't that like a builder saying "well I've built the house but it hasn't got a roof, oh well they can have a convertible house"?
     
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  27. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    In the 387? It’s intentional Matt said to give the better impression of moving although the cab doesn’t make that sound IRL
     
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  28. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    I think Sam must be on his holidays for this one.
     
  29. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Don't forget that Sam was a stand in for community manager until JD, Nat and Jamie got bedded in. Nat seems to have taken on the mantle of "the sensible one on the community team" even though she's not as blunt or knowledgeable as Sam on these things (or old, grey, wizened or slightly mad...)
    JD seems to be the main salesperson on stream nowadays and I don't think I remember him being too questionning about whether things are accurate, right or when things mess up...

    With the community team up to full capacity Sam has gone back to his main role as player contact, data manager etc, ie the person who deals with trends and so on in the game and where it might go next (he dealt with play testing in the last few rounds also)
    And of course he does a lot of things outside of DTG also including his colonel failure streams
     
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  30. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Pretty sure he never has on stream. It‘s why I‘m not too bothered about preview streams if JD‘s in them. I get that he‘s just doing his job and mean no offence to him, but you‘re not going to get any answers to tough questions if he‘s conducting the stream. Nat is a lot better in that regard, though obviously not Sam-level of being brutally honest.
     
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  31. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I guess it helps being a known upsetter of people (and a bit higher up and long legged in the organisation). I like the way Nat's developed as time's gone on and hopefully she can be as forthright and give the management a few pokes as Sam seems to be
     
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  32. SBos

    SBos Well-Known Member

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    What JD said on the stream last night was an utter disgrace and shows he doesn’t give one iota about the major issues. To say he was aware that a few people had issues and just brush it under the carpet is farcical.
     
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  33. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Haven't watched the stream yet, but will do so later and probably wonder how people are glossing over such big issues. A single "Well, this didn't go well, did it?" like last time hardly covers it
     
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  34. Princess Entrapta

    Princess Entrapta Well-Known Member

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    Just be glad of the lack of layers on XBox One, it seems to be a lot more stable than Series S.
     
  35. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    This is why I turned off before the first service even got started. A good discussion on the issues with what the immediate plan of action was going to be would have placated me for a few hours. Instead it was all the usual jolly stuff after a brief mention
     
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  36. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    If you want to be DTG’s next community manager, start rehearsing the phrase “Thank you for your patience” now, both out loud for streams and typing it for in the forum. Maybe by the time you het the job, our patience will have been rewarded and you won’t need it so often.

    Just remember the community team aren’t the ones developing the game that has the issues. No Nonsense Nat will be standing up for us in DTG meetings, no fear of that. JD gets some stick here because he is a cheerful energetic outgoing chap, which sometimes doesn’t fit with how we’re feeling when we see that on a stream. A cheerful personality can also be persuasive behind the scenes. He brought up the concept that DTG have been overdeveloping the game during last night’s stream and Matt agreed that they might just have been doing that.

    There have been so many issues lately on different platforms that I think DTG will now have to change how much they try and cram in to the routes and the differences between platforms need to be considered more in the design. That was discussed in last night’s stream, so nothing was being dismissed by either Matt or JD.
     
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  37. Boris The Frog

    Boris The Frog Active Member

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    Hmm, I didn't see it like that. The only real thing I thought was a bit off was that in one hand JD said he didn't want gamers to feel like they were being treated as beta testers, yet there was an awful lot of emphasis towards asking everyone to detail faults as much as possible and report them back via the forums.

    Erm,
    (a) that kinda sounds like beta testing to me.
    (b) It gave the impression that the onus of responsibility in getting these issues resolved was ours and not theirs.

    Most people just want to enjoy what they've purchased but the conversation was being continually pushed in a direction that felt like in order for that to be the case, terms and conditions applied.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2021
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  38. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    To be fair I do for the most part agree with you, I think we do have a pretty decent community team, and while I have some reservations regarding how much knowledge (or lack of) they bring to the streams (I note this has been getting better though), I do trust that behind the scenes they are batting for us.

    However, the way the stream last night was handled was pretty poor, to the point where I turned it off after about 30 minutes, Matt & JD gave the impression that the issues with BML, or LC whatever, were nowhere near as prolific as they are, the DLC is practically unplayable on PS5, looking through the Xbox forum gives me the impression that it’s the same there, personally I didn’t get much sense that any of the issues were much of a priority, so I certainly hope I’m proved wrong, because as it stands I am not willing to risk wasting an hour of my time running a service that will most likely crash at the end, or be met with a dispatcher issue.

    Being asked to document where the issues are is frankly laughable because if DTG were to load the route up and play it then they would encounter issues almost immediately, the sheer lack of QA with this DLC is evident, and even more concerning is how many people must of played this DLC pre release, encountered issues, then either not reported them, or DTG just haven’t listened, so something has failed there.

    DTG now have quite the catalogue of some pretty serious issues coming off Rush Hour, so my question is this, DTG have tried to release multiple DLC’s in a very short space of time, so are they willing to go all hands on deck to get the issues from Rush Hour solved? The answer to that (which will be evident in time) will ultimately decide weather I personally bother with TSW any more, it may well be the only Train Simulator on console, but for the money it costs to support and play, just to get the end result of what we have now, just isn’t worth it.

    To be fair I’m already not purchasing any more DLC, due to the PS5 issue, which may not be DTG’s issue, but I also find it hard to believe that Sony would implement such a ‘feature’ without telling game devs somehow, what is much more believable is that DTG failed to take the information on board.

    So yeah, bit of a rant, but for me, TSW on PS5 has been an utter train crash from the start, and it’s looking like that is going to be the case for the foreseeable.
     
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  39. david-bright184169

    david-bright184169 Active Member

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    Thousands of unpaid testers are available in the community so release it and let them find the problems.
    Is that a cynical view?
    Or reality?
     
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  40. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Some changes will surely have to be made behind the scenes. To say that the roll-out of the next gen versions of the game and Rush Hour wasn‘t smooth would be a euphemism. That‘s not even accounting for other issues not on DTG‘s side like the new PS5 add-on problem. I‘m curious to see what role Matt will play in the coming days (or rather years) now that he can more directly influence the direction TSW is taking.

    Personally, I don‘t necessarily think that they were overdeveloping routes - ok, the London timetable is quite insane and DRA had quite a lot of trackage in the original announcement etc. I think the issue was more the compounding of developing 3 routes - all of them pushing the envelope in one way or another - basically for the price of one while also upgrading the engine while also expanding to new gen consoles while also being under massive time pressure because of the early announcement of Rush Hour. Smarter people than me will be able to figure out what the lessons here are, but I think the bundle might not have been such a good idea (for players or DTG) in hindsight - at least not in the context of everything else going on.

    I didn‘t watch the stream - not because of what‘s happening but because of a lack of interest in the London to Brighton route. But it‘s interesting that this issue was talked about seeing how I‘ve already seen some threads in the last couple of days suggesting that DTG might have bit off more than they can chew this year.
     
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  41. david-bright184169

    david-bright184169 Active Member

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    Come back Sam, I like your style
     
  42. Mitchellman151

    Mitchellman151 New Member

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    Sam isn't distancing himself, it was said on a recent stream he had taken some holiday
     
  43. DTG JD

    DTG JD Staff Member

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    I'm sorry you felt that way. Hopefully if you watch the rest of the stream, you'll see we did cover a lot of ground - including addressing the issues at many points - and answered as many questions as possible that were coming in. We don't sweep anything under the carpet. As someone who, with my team, has spent most of the past couple of days jumping on as many threads on as many platforms as possible to communicate and try to help, I care very much.

    On the 'beta testers' discussion - we're in a position at the moment where we're trying to get information and find patterns which will help the team to diagnose issues quicker, and we need a variety of responses to do that. Of course, none of us want these issues to be here, nor do we want to ask for your help (you don't have to give it to us, by any means) - it just makes it quicker for us to pinpoint what may be going on to cause issues.
     
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  44. speedy2972

    speedy2972 Active Member

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    Sorry you feel this way? Instead of patronising players, please ensure the game can actually be completed across all platforms and all tasks
    That's all we ask
     
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  45. friskey.marcedes

    friskey.marcedes Active Member

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    Part of me is looking forward to Sam's return to get his forthright feedback - he also has the ear of senior people on the Board.
    DTG need to make optimisation their number one priority to enable xbox one/PS4 owners to play the game as it should be. Munich Augsberg is pathetic without the extra layers and Brighton is just red train/green train ×1200 (when it doesn't crash).
    JD seems a very nice chap but there are times like these where we need the serious face and some honest recognition of the enormity of the problems we are facing trying to play the game.
    Sam had said previously -when things weren't as bad as this that DTG were considering "compensation" and this needs to be considered to help restore our trust.
    I feel for Skyhook and Rivet releasing their DLC's next week during these times!
     
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  46. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    To be fair guys, I don’t think DTG JD has given any indication that the issues we’ve raised are being swept away. I’m as annoyed as everyone else at the state of the Rush Hour releases and in particular BML, but let’s not make this a personal slanging match. I did ask on the forums last night to be given more information as I too had felt there wasn’t enough talk about it last night. However, at the end of the day, talking about it isn’t fixing it.

    TrainSim-Matt is gathering feedback and I can say he and his teams are working on identifying the issues that need addressing. As JD says, players are not obligated to submit any feedback, but any and all feedback we can give will help to improve things. Let’s put our frustrations into something productive and help as much as we can. We all want the game to be the best it can be.
     
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  47. speedy2972

    speedy2972 Active Member

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    I think the level of frustration has built up particularly around Rush hour, whether it be shoddy routes, borderline diabolical testing or immature arguments, these shouldn't be happening.
    It's rather a double edged sword, DTG release good dlc with good quality testing, a challenging and rewarding experience and hours of fun= community over the moon, rave reviews and rightfully expecting more. On the other hand, DTG release terrible doc with slack testing, boring route and switch off after 5 minutes territory= community livid, harsh but fair critiques and baying for swift responses.
    The problem is they have had years to perfect their approach and systems and yet we're seeing truly basic errors being made ie crashes, incomplete route tasks, rubbish polishing etc.
    So I'm not making it a personal slanging match, I'm just suggesting my opinion which I'm not saying is going to be everyone's cup of tea, but if they are requesting feedback then they should rightfully receive it.
     
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  48. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Frankly it seems to me that DTG have been striving manfully to squeeze a quart (the RH routes) into a pint pot (XBox One), but it unsurprisingly hasn't worked very well. As Matt observed in the stream, they are putting more man-hours into the Gen 8 versions than all other builds combined, but IMO the task may be impossible.

    But the whingeing and outright slagging in this thread are certainly not merited. DTG have been bending over backwards to continue to support older hardware, rather than simply telling PS4/XB1 users to either upgrade or sod off.
     
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  49. bakedpotatos.jm

    bakedpotatos.jm Well-Known Member

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    I think people are misunderstanding what support means. It means still providing an active game with bug fixes and access to new content that they will release for it.

    It does not mean that the old gen needs to get new features, such as layers, dynamic weather, higher texture details or even a full timetable. In fact by them just not saying sorry but we have to bring you back to the TSW 2 standard from when that version was released. Since that was the last time the game ran stable. Think about it they tried to add layers to HMA that was a fail, the more detailed the routes have gotten with LGV, SEHS and Clinchfield dropped FPS down to almost unplayae and the added passengers, and busier time tables with Rush Hour really have made things worse. But they don't want to take a step back and say this is what you get they are willing to take the extra time to decipher what works and what doesn't and keep the stuff that will work and add features.

    Unlike the developer I work for that has basically said they don't care and players will just need to upgrade. So old consoles users should be grateful for what they are getting. Name another high quality simulator that is as good as TSW on the Xbox One? Truck driver and Bus simulator are garbage compared to what PC gets and there is no Flightsim coming because Microsoft can't get it to work on their own Old Gen consoles.
     
  50. Boris The Frog

    Boris The Frog Active Member

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    Farming Simulator 17
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    Railway Empire
    Mudrunner
    Snowrunner
    Project CARS 2 (Xbox One X)

    All perfect examples of how, even with a tight budget, you can fully utilise the capabilities of last generation consoles to create perfectly good simulations....

    FYI, MS flight sim is largely server based and because of which was initially planned for X1X release using roughly similar to the (at the time) PC equivalent of 'mid' settings but for whatever reason Microsoft / Asobo decided on X|S exclusivity instead.. So yes, Asobo can (and presumably did) get it working on last gen consoles.
     
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