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Well The Transparency Was Great While It Lasted

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by caspargray, Feb 9, 2021.

  1. caspargray

    caspargray Active Member

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    Welp. That is the end of DTGs transparency then it seems. It was great while it lasted.

    - SEHS fixes?
    - Other half of the LIRR list?
    - Any other roadmap movement?
    - Movement of next DLC to upcoming/465 to next arrival? (This might not have happened, but equally it might have done...)

    "A new transparent DTG" was promised in August. The point of the January roadmap was to maintain the detail but in a different place. Now it seems we are going back and getting rid of the detail??

    That is probably a bit harsh. Roadmap 2.0 may be good. We haven't seen it, and I reserve judgement till we have, but:
    - Why not continue using the old one till its ready?
    - Why not keep a forum post of all the fixes for those of us who are interested - it doesn't need to be in production or upcoming. Just a list saying that we are looking into this?

    I love looking at all the roadmap stuff every two weeks. This one is a huge letdown.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2021
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  2. caspargray

    caspargray Active Member

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    Also DTG if you read this: on the roadmap why can't you just have "LIRR Fixes" in the appropriate section, with the detailed list that you've posted today in a forum post under the title: "LIRR Fixes: In Production" (or whatever stage).
     
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  3. Trenomarcus

    Trenomarcus Well-Known Member

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    Because they are unable to communicate between departments and the patch notes are always not aligned to what is actually included in releases, as stated in the article itself. The latest patch notes are still missing the LGV updates for example.

    They made the good decision of giving up with the previous (quite good) roadmap format.
     
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  4. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    It's not the format of the roadmap that is the issue. It's the first thing you said, that they're unable to communicate between departments. That's...not good. A good company would work to fix those communication breakdowns, not re-design processes to accommodate them.
     
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  5. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Community Manager Staff Member

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    I can understand how today's Roadmap update has made you feel a little uncertain.

    We are aiming to provide you with more correct and valuable information going forward. We have no intentions of keeping you in the dark.
    The reason we haven't continued to use the previous Roadmap format is because there have been too many inaccuracies in previous Roadmaps, something we are working to improve.

    The questions surrounding SEHS will be discussed during tonight's stream, however if anyone is unable to watch the stream live or at a later date I will be answering questions on the forums.
     
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  6. ionutmineadaniel

    ionutmineadaniel Well-Known Member

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    Will the next roadmap include feautere new dlcs and features like the old one?
     
  7. caspargray

    caspargray Active Member

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    Thanks Natalie. It’s a shame that we couldn’t have the old one. Just if your taking anything away from this then it’s please let us have the detailed lists, without the timestamp if necessary. It’s better to have the lists with no idea of development status, rather than withhold the entire list because the developer status might be wrong.
     
  8. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Well dtg defintely need to improve communication then
     
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  9. railway12

    railway12 Well-Known Member

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    create a teams chat called roadmap and start a conversation? Each employee reports the stuff that they / have been / are / will be / working on? I do not see the problem?!
     
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  10. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    I highly doubt it's to intentionally hide information and be less transparent. They're probably just trying to get a better format.

    A question, or maybe more like a suggestion, but what about a simple list of things shown in a PDCA (plan, do, check, act) system? Would be similar to the previous system, but simpler, maybe. And everyone could see what status a given item is in on the list.
     
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  11. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I think the biggest misstep here was not telling us in advance. I don't think the backlash would have been nearly as severe if Natalie or Sam had posted Friday or yesterday that "Because we are revamping the Roadmap format, there won't be one on Tuesday." Suddenly dashed expectations lead to anger.
     
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  12. BR125

    BR125 Well-Known Member

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    4444.jpg
     
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  13. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    IDK, why solving that has to be done while scrapping the old format. TBH most issues would get solved with simple proofreading prior to release, no need for a format change.
     
  14. hightower

    hightower Guest

    Bucking the trend here, but I think the changes to the roadmap are very welcome. It was far too complicated and unreliable so good on you for having the nouse to change it.

    The previous format put me off to the point that I very rarely waded through it.
     
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  15. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    DTG managed to mess up yet another thing. I have no words...
    Looking forward to how they will duck up Steam engines!
     
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  16. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    My, the drama. Let us contain ourselves and thoroughly read the statements provided.

    Cheers
     
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  17. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Every roadmap and patch notes that came out, I made the comment that it was becoming increasingly difficult to track items through the roadmap and that the patch notes didn’t match it, whenever they were released. I didn’t need a spreadsheet to track the inaccuracies either because it was glaringly obvious. A spreadsheet would have been impossible to update and I’m glad I never got the time to make one.

    From what was said in the live stream, that was the same problem DTG were having internally between the teams and they couldn’t even compile a roadmap this time round because the info was so different between departments and what had been written previously. It couldn’t go on as it was and there was no way to fix it. There’s no dishonesty in what they have told us, it was becoming obvious that was the case.

    As much as we could see that things listed on the roadmap weren’t being addressed, I noticed some things changing within the software that had neither appeared on the roadmap nor patch notes. The change in the HUD which included, amongst other tweaks, the change of the upper right font sizes (but not the distance to objective size on the left) was on neither. Matt had mentioned it without specifics on a random live stream but that was it. I had noticed the change and that the change was incomplete but there was no written reference to it anywhere.

    We haven’t seen what they will come up with yet to replace the broken method, and it will be less detailed than it has been, but hopefully it won’t be the result of twelve departments all throwing conflicting info in Sam’s direction for him to cobble together an incomplete approximation of what they are actually doing from the mess.

    We can continue to report issues and they can continue to address them the same as they have been doing. Of course the communication with the outside world may reflect some confusion internally with what they are actually doing (rather than what they are communicating) but I’m sure it works better internally than the translation into the roadmap suggested. Let’s face it though, with the complexities of TSW it is never going to run so smoothly that everyone is happy. Things will fall through cracks but neither us nor them would be able to catch them through the roadmap as it was. It needed to change.
     
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  18. Louis-MTA NYCTA

    Louis-MTA NYCTA Well-Known Member

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    Well said, this is true.
    I understand things will eventually become obsolete and may get unreliable. We might be getting less details within the roadmaps now on, but if it needs to be revamped and totally rebuilt then I am in for that. I am happy DTG is "Trying". If DTG were not trying they would not be explaining and having live-streams explaining what is going on to the community.

    To those people who are just complaining about how DTG is just sloppy are not doing the right thing. Understand that you need to get the full idea before posting here on the forums. If you don't have the right context for a situation your going in blind eye, not really knowing anything. Please watch the streams or read the details being given out before you post information that may contradict.
    If the new roadmap has less details but more accurate information I am fine with that, we can all adapt to new changes. But not everyone is going to like it, it is inevitable. But nothing is perfect, we just have to deal with it.

    Honesty here for me, the old roadmap was kind of starting to get a bit obsolete, which is alright in my book. Atleast change is hopefully happening and coming soon.

    Just a reminder, we are all humans NOT computers. We are bound to make mistakes, but we should learn from them. In order to succeed we must have mistakes at some point. "A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new." -Albert Einstein.

    Note: I am in no way endorsing or supporting DTG or going against them, I prefer to be neutral.
     
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  19. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    "Community" - You don't communicate - things need to change
    DTG - we will release a roadmap
    "Community" - (after a brief feeling of contentment) Why isn't this on the roadmap? Why has so and so moved from next arrival back to in production? What happened to so and so on the roadmap? I reported this last month? Why has so and so moved to unresolved just because you couldn't reproduce it it?
    DTG - we will revise the roadmap as it clearly isn't working - so this week isn't a roadmap but to tell you what is happening
    "Community" - (in vexation) this isn't a roadmap! Why are you now only fixing LIRR? You have taken our roadmap away! How dare you betray the communities trust (even though you have explained exactly what you are doing and why)! I can't possibly wait two weeks for the next one!
    We don't like change
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2021
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  20. hightower

    hightower Guest

    I think there are a significant number of people who live for what is coming next, or chatting about what they think is coming next. Nothing wrong with that but I can’t help but feel people aren’t playing what’s out now for more than a week before the focus shifts to the future. I’m just as guilty as the next person. Of all the content I own I’ve probably only played 40% or so.

    Is that a function of their impatience or the game not hooking people in. Or both. Or neither :)
     
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  21. Shaun123

    Shaun123 Well-Known Member

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    If you watch the stream as well, Sam was very upfront and transparent and explained in detail about what had happened.

    I actually think that people haven’t read the “Roadmap” properly to see what has happened, or in conjunction with that, watched the stream, where there’s a full explanation, as well very detailed info about upcoming SEHS fixes!

    Unfortunately, it seems for most people, it’s far easier to get angry about DTG, when in reality they genuinely haven’t done wrong. I think there’s some people that haven’t even read this works edition of the roadmap or stream, and just jumped on the DTG = Bad bandwagon.

    I think with this edition of the Roadmap they very clearly had the best of intentions with what they were doing.

    I was initially disappointed when I read it, as it is something to look forward to every 2 weeks, as I wanted to see things move up the Roadmap in readiness for release, but it’s been explained.

    I don’t think there’s an issue here whatsoever.
     
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  22. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    A good question, maybe a combination of things. I suppose something new and shiny does lose its novelty after a couple of weeks. I still spend more time on TS1 so you could be right. I only go back to TSW a couple of times a week at the moment, but it was the same for me when Rail Simulator first came out and I had so much more content for MSTS, that for me is TSW's biggest problem and the very basic scenario planner, it is nice when you just want to jump in and drive and I think largely looks good.

    I too was looking forward to the yesterdays roadmap and was also perturbed at first, it has become a fortnightly feature of my life for the last couple of months, I am looking forward to seeing what is coming up and have been checking the roadmap for the last few weeks expecting to see new routes announced and still nothing! I can understand some of the disappointment but not the anger which I genuinely think was a huge over reaction as they are trying to make it better, whether that is what the outcome will be remains to be seen but I am sure they can change it again if the new format doesn't work and I don't think they deserved some of the vitriol. Maybe, as sometimes is the case they were clumsy in the way in which they dealt with it, but, to err is human!
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2021
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  23. hightower

    hightower Guest

    Agreed. The reaction to a half finished route is (to an extent) justified. Perhaps not some of the vitriol. The reaction to what are after all improvements to the RoadMap was just bonkers.

    Maybe given the current situation in the world people are finding that with less to do with their time things that would otherwise have barely merited a second thought take on a far bigger significance than they should.
     
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  24. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Yes that is true, I think the route could have been a bit more polished and it doesn't look good releasing patches so soon after release. I have too been guilty of over reacting over the last few months, I think a lot of us are suffering and a forum is an easy way to vent our frustrations.

    The one upside (if there can be one) of the lock downs is that so much of my life has been cancelled, I have spent more time train-simming than I have for years and in TS1 rediscovering long forgotten routes and new many new creations.
     
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  25. michael hooley

    michael hooley Well-Known Member

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    I will try and put this simply, maybe it is an age thing but having watched the 9th Feb road map stream i am more confused than ever Sam usually comes across very well, but seemed unsure for once.
     
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  26. Shaun123

    Shaun123 Well-Known Member

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    I agree, now I’m quite a positive person, so I’ll hold my hands up and say, it’s quite rare I will be negative about DTG, I have criticised when they have got things wrong (this new Roadmap isn’t one of those things by the way) but have found some of the comments about SEHS and other DLC, so incredibly distasteful and vitriolic, that it’s actually quite uncomfortable to read.

    I’ve seen comments in the past “We put food on your table by buying this DLC” which is just disgusting, to be frank.

    These are real people you’re talking about in a job, doing their best. And all in honesty, none of us apart from those who actually work at DTG, have an idea, about the kind of time pressures/deadlines that they are under from directors and management.

    I bet most of the people making such comments have a) not worked in a job where there are time pressures, or constant criticism from the work that you do, or b) they are too young to have a job/don’t have a job, so have very little understanding of how the world of work works.
     
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  27. hightower

    hightower Guest

    My understanding in a nutshell:

    1) Roadmap was started with the best of intentions.
    2) Largely due to seemingly messed up internal communications it became a bloated and hard to read mess. It was also largely a work of fiction.
    3) DTG have realised this and are changing it for the better so it is far more accurate and easier to understand.
    4) Some people went ape about nothing. This thread being a case in point.
     
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  28. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    It's not what they've done, it's how they went about it that I believe could have been handled better.

    This decision to revamp the roadmap has obviously been planned and known about before the usual time of 4pm (UK) on Tuesday. So why leave it until then, go through the same process of posting a big screenshot saying "Roadmap Update", which yes, I know if we are going to split hairs, that's what it is. Only then to go through to find a post that has probably caused more confusion than the roadmap itself.

    I believe that if they had made a post Monday or even Tuesday morning explaining there would be no roadmap as it was getting too convoluted and they were looking at something new, this would have still maintained the transparency they are wanting us to believe they are showing and avoided some of the disappointment from those who have been hanging on waiting for the 4pm announcement.
     
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  29. Phil78

    Phil78 Active Member

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    It is beyond disgusting! What kind of barbarian would even consider such a manner of uncultured vulgarity?! Have those savages never heard of using crockery, like an enlightened, civilized person? Bloody philistines, ladling out their gruel straight onto the fine pieces of antique carpentry that I imagine the DTG offices to be festooned with. I mean, how is a developer supposed to develop anything with peas rolling around all over the parish, broth seeping into the grain of their drafting tables and their ink pots swimming in gravy?
     
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  30. Shaun123

    Shaun123 Well-Known Member

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    Trust me there still would have been the outrage, as you would have still have had people, excited for the roadmap, only to be disappointed to be told the day before, no roadmap!
     
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  31. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Dtg the soap opera which keeps on giving.
    As always it’s our expectations that at fault.
     
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  32. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    I am thoroughly convinced that DTG is going to be damned if they do and damned if they don’t.

    I totally identify with the evolution of problems with the “Roadmap”. Started off as a great idea, meet with initial success, in the spirit of wanting to provide more information, included more granularity which meant more time required to create and maintain said roadmap until time devoted to try and keep it accurate was resulting in diminishing returns and possible taking time away from more important activities such as actually fixing bugs, making new routes etc.

    As the head of the telecommunications engineering division for a military service with over 40 major (some multi-million dollar) projects, developing a good process for keeping all informed of status and progress was an extremely daunting task. Never was totally satisfied with solutions.

    I applaud the effort, both for the original intent and with the desire to make changes to evolve to a more sustainable and accurate format.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2021
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  33. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    To be honest I appreciate their effort to make the roadmap more clear. It was definitely misleading sometimes especially with bug fixing going or not going in patches.

    However they completely messed up the transition between old and new: the current state of roadmap is completely useless. Let's just hope it will improve.
     
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  34. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    The reason being that there were so many under the hood fixes going on here and there, that it was virtually impossible to track, and report. Roadmap hasnt been torn up, the previous one still stands, just add LIRR to it snd the SEHS stuff that was discussed.
     
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  35. Jannerdunk

    Jannerdunk Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps the road map has been a bit of victim of its own success, so I do understand that changes needed to be made for the reasons DTG gave. For me, I liked all the bug fixes / issues being listed, it gave me, the paying customer, some reassurance that the issues that many are reporting are being investigated and looked into.

    If the "bugs fixes" are not going to be referenced in the new version of the roadmap, then DTG need to revisit how they acknowledge the reports made in the technical forum. Even a standard acknowledgement would be better than nothing.

    I think i am correct in saying that Adam stated that MSB would be next up for a series of bug fixes, Perhaps as each of these "new projects" are started DTG could put up up a forum post asking us to report what we consider to be the outstanding issues with the route (and only that route). This could crossed referenced to their internal systems.
     
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  36. hightower

    hightower Guest

    FYI they mentioned that in the stream. All posts in the tech forum that have been logged will have a helpful rating given to them by one of the community managers.
     
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  37. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    That's nice, but "Has been logged" tells us nothing about whether they're going to do anything about it or not.
     
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  38. hightower

    hightower Guest

    True, but then the roadmap v1 didn’t do that either.
     
  39. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The January-form roadmap included bug fixes being worked on.
     
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  40. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    To me, this thread is another proof that people tend to get caught in their own expectations a tad too much. I mean, whatever DTG is doing, they are doing it wrong one way or the other and there will always be a part of this community being toxic or angry about decisions DTG takes.

    But to me, the decision of revising the roadmap shows one thing: DTg wants to improve. They really want to do better and improve transparency in a way benefitting the needs of DTG also as satisfying the expectations of the community (as far as this is even possible). I really feel that people should continue to objectively criticise DTG for the content BUT: I wish more people would recognize that DTG really tries to improve. You can see it for example when they streamed the first SEHS preview. The backlash then made then DTG to at least try to improve the route.

    It is totally legit to criticise DTG for "rushing a route" or "reworking a roadmap". But people should also acknowledge that DTG puts effort into this and they are doing far better than 2-3 years ago.
     
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  41. hightower

    hightower Guest

    It did, but it didn’t tell you whether or not your issue reported in the tech forum was going to be addressed or not.
     
  42. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    While that's true, if the reported issue popped up in the roadmap then at least one knew. Even if entered as [Dropped-could not reproduce].
     
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  43. railway12

    railway12 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure if I'm mistaken but haven't we been promised a reworked roadmap for 2021? I think I heard it in a roadmap stream back in december? So should not the first roadmap have been with the new system already? Correct me if I'm wrong.
     
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  44. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Let me check....uh no, 2021 isn’t over yet so I see they have about another 10 1/2 months before you can start crying foul.....
     
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  45. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    The Roadmap is fine. We have a stream too, where Dovetail talk to us about upcoming plans, and thats great. I also accept people have their own expectations and opinions. If they/we didnt, trust me that wouldnt be good for DTG or any other company that has an interested loyal customer base. Forget toxicity or any other tags that may be given to people we dont agree with.
     
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  46. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Do like 90% of the people here don't understand that this is not the new roadmap format? This is just a temporary post with minimal info, as the new roadmap format is still being worked on. One or two weeks and we are going to have a proper roadmap.

    Chill the hell out, my dudes.
     
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  47. railway12

    railway12 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your objective and appropriate answer...
     
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  48. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Dovetail Special Projects Staff Member

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    You're right, and the January update was using that new approach. When we came to update it however is when it became clear that it was unworkable.
     
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  49. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    You are quite welcome..sort of matched the question don’t you think?
     
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  50. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    It wouldn't be all that hard to post their bug list live and show what is outstanding, in backlog, being worked on, testing, ready for release etc. A filter could be added so internal information isn't visible.

    Paul
     
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